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Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

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Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby Goodmongo » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:25 am

Below is one of the questions and Blizz's answer:

Q: During the expansions released since vanilla, the specialities of the different classes were watered down more and more. By now, many classes can do almost everything and almost none is still special. Are there any steps planned to give the classes more “charisma”, so that they are more distinguished from each other and regain their special flair? – Blades (Europe [German])

A: Sometimes when players say “special flair” what they really mean is “something so awesome that everyone will have to take me.” We really don’t want to go back to that model, which just isn’t tenable in a game with 10-player raids and 30 different talent trees. We have no problem spreading around buffs and utility that we consider more-or-less mandatory, such as the battle rezes and raid buffs. At the same time, we think there are enough unique abilities out there to make the various talent trees shine. Shaman have a great interrupt with Wind Shear. Warlocks can get out of danger with Demonic Portal. Discipline priests can mitigate a lot of damage with Power Word: Barrier, but Unholy death knights have their own version in Anti-Magic Zone. We struggle a lot with how much homogenization is good for the game, largely so that you can play with your friends, and how much is bad for the game, because then your character feels less special. It’s something we’ll continue to work on in an attempt to strike that perfect balance.

I mention this in reference to the recent post on feral utility. As I tried to point out there our utility really isn't that much better then other classes so in the end it comes back to DPS. I try to leave out a good feral player vs a bad rogue for these arguments and go by players of equal level and experience.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby Qbear » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:59 am

Like you said it all comes down to player skill. The most recent article was just a guide line of what a feral can do other then dps. Every fight I've come across so far in T11 I've yet to meet my death to an enrage timer, more deaths to just failed mechanics. Currently my guild is working on HM Cho'gal one of my duties is to run to range, go bear, taunt boss, eat fury beam, get taunted off of, go cat, feral charge back, profit. I do this for every other beam, while making sure both adds have equal dps on to them, and still manage to maintain middle of the pack dps.

Feral's weak right now and I'm joining the good fight in order to see what the dev's have in store for us come 4.1. However, it is equally important for ferals to know all they're capable of doing and how to utilize those abilities in the most extreme scenarios.

Can other classes do all this, sure. But who cares about those guys.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby Sylvaneart » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:04 am

Mongo I agree with what your saying but I think you are missing my point. I am trying to help people be the better player. Right now I am sitting here typing and deleting trying to figure out how to word this differently. I have said time and time again that other classes can do everything we can do and at times even better. But that dosn't mean the player can. No ferals arn't going to get invited to a raid just becouse they are feral. If you want in you have to earn it and we(Q and I) are trying to show you how.
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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby Goodmongo » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:48 am

I know you guys are and on the other part I posted an apology. My frustrations with this expansion have gotten the better of me. I think both of you guys are great and I promise to be more upbeat. I will still offer constructive criticism when necessary but will be much more supportive.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby Qbear » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:00 pm

I just read your other post and do thank you for the apology but I promise you it wasn't needed. I'm sure I speak for both of the maintainers of this site when I say that we share the frustrations of the feral pve community. I've actually made numerous post on the US Offical Forums asking for changes and offering suggestions. I'm very dissatisfied with the current state of ferals, but this is the class I play and I feel as a decently progressed feral its my duty to offer my insights to those who are less progressed.

Plus in my 5 years of playing this game I've noticed buffs and nerfs work in waves. Yeah we're weak now but it won't last. Eventually we'll be the flavor of the month class and it will be the responsibility of you as well as me to teach the onslaught of new ferals how to not be completely worthless :)

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby Sylvaneart » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:12 pm

Q and I are of one mind on many things here at the Fluid Druid and you not needing to apologize is one of them. I too am so frustrated with the state of the feral but………I still love it. It just fits me and always will. My articles are purposely leaning away from what’s wrong with us. This was a conscious decision made by me simple because I have watched so many bloggers and such turn to this it wasn’t worth reading. I honestly feel that even though some RLs will pick a class over us, all we can do right now is be the better player. And that is my goal. To help kettehs be the better player. Think of how glorious it will be when we become the best players and then our long awaited buffs come!

BTW your insight is appreciated.
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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby cynrh » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:05 pm

I'd like to see Cower mentioned. I know most druids never run into Cower problems, but I run with a casual group and I am constantly riding my tank's threat, so much so that I cannot Berserk at the start and I usually have both Cower and Thorns* on CD for the first minute. This is frustrating enough but I can live with it, but what is extremely frustrating is when Cower misses or is dodged. Because of the chance of missing, I am pretty much forced to Cower early and often instead of 'as-needed'.

Our DPS deficit is a far more major issue, I understand, but there's no point in arguing for competitive DPS if our only threat dump isn't completely fixed.

* Syl, you might want to mention this one as another item ferals can bring to a raid table. I find it invaluable for "early burn" sorts of fights like the first drake on Halfus, where the tank isn't Vengeanced up yet.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby felhoof » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:20 pm

Cower isn't going to be fixed. It works exactly the same as a rogue's version. Rogues hate that too, but there is a simple solution if you don't want it to miss - stack hit and expertise.

It's annoying, I agree. But it's unlikely to be changed.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby cynrh » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:44 pm

That's like a rogue bitching about Backstab. Do they even use Feint for threat dumps anymore?

There's two things wrong with that; Rogues have better options like Tricks, and rogues have a stat weighting system that encourages hit capping to reach maximum DPS. Our DPS is gimped even further if we do that (for that matter I might as well stack Int to reduce my threat, it'd practically the same effect). "Working exactly the same as the <insert class>'s version" should never be good enough, we are our own snowflake, for instance, Cower doesn't reduce AoE damage for us like Feint does, so they are not exactly the same.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby felhoof » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:48 pm

Hit doesn't gimp your DPS. If you cap hit instead of increasing mastery or crit it ends up being something like a 50 DPS loss in the worst possible situation for hit (meaning that in other situations it's actually better to cap hit). That doesn't assume lower time on target or the like or the benefit of having a smoother rotation and not being a robot.

Rogues use feint all the time. Especially at the start of fights, and especially depending on their spec.

Cower and Feint both require you to be in melee range, both can miss, and both reduce threat. Mechanically they work the same, and it's pretty clear that they were coded up with the same basic code.

It's possible they'll fix it, but unless it's an easy fix I doubt they will; it will impact rogues, it's not a huge deal, and it's hard to test. I suspect it'd be a fairly low priority bug at best.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby Rawf » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:53 pm

Bring the player and not the class is all well and good in theory but in practice, not so much. Especially in top end guilds.

Also, feint is so much more easy to use for rogues with Glyph of Feint, which makes it 0 energy cost, and with a less cluttered early rotation.

The only reason I can think of that Blizz aren't giving us buffs right now is that we might scale much better with gear then everyone else (just a thought, based on nothing) so that next tier we're about right with where our dps is. But that would mean by the end of next tier / beginning of the tier after that we'd have more nerfs. Yay us.
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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby felhoof » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:01 pm

Rawf, given the wall that most ferals hit when transitioning between heroic gear and raid level gear (and then 372-level gear) I think it's pretty clear that ferals are scaling pretty poorly relative to other classes. Ferals started out fairly strong, but other classes have overtaken them significantly as gear has improved. It is highly unlikely that scaling is going to be correct for ferals unless something changes.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby cynrh » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:36 pm

felhoof wrote:Hit doesn't gimp your DPS. If you cap hit instead of increasing mastery or crit it ends up being something like a 50 DPS loss in the worst possible situation for hit (meaning that in other situations it's actually better to cap hit). That doesn't assume lower time on target or the like or the benefit of having a smoother rotation and not being a robot.


I'll admit you are right on this point, the DPS loss in my case is 70 DPS in Mew which isn't quite as severe as I expected, but still kind of like finding you owe the Feds half as much as you were expecting. :)

felhoof wrote:Rogues use feint all the time. Especially at the start of fights, and especially depending on their spec.

Cower and Feint both require you to be in melee range, both can miss, and both reduce threat. Mechanically they work the same, and it's pretty clear that they were coded up with the same basic code.


We'll have to disagree. The fact that they added code to make Feint be modified by a glyph and to add AoE damage reduction indicates to me that these are only loosely based on each other and very likely share little code beyond the same call to some threat-reducing function.

The rogues I run with barely use Feint for threat reduction. When I parse our logs I see a ton of Tricks and only the occasional Feint. I pulled up a few WoL logs of top 25H rogues and Tricks vs Feint use is about 3:1. I'm willing to bet Feint is used more for the defensive capability than the threat drop.

From Elitist Jerks Assassin's Guide, the only comment on Feint:
Feint is a tremendously valuable ability for reducing damage taken from AoE abilities which increases your survivability and saves precious healer mana. For any encounter were you use Feint regularly, it is worth glyphing (refer to the Cataclysm 4.0.3 Raid Mechanics Thread for various places Feint will work).


That one also links to the Rogue's Raiding Guide, which lists every encounter and raid boss ability that Feint can mitigate damage on. So I still believe that Tricks is their goto threat dump and Feint's small threat dump is just a nice side-effect of a defensive ability.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby shinryu » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:38 pm

Watch as we all get replaced by the neighborhood DK >.>

But yeah, I mean I'm still the top DPSer in my guild, but I haven't gotten an upgrade in weeks, and it seems like the more gear everyone else gets, the closer and closer they are to overtaking me...kinda depressing in ways.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby Goodmongo » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:43 am

Rogues can also vanish which is a complete aggro dump. But the real key is tricks. In a 25 man with 2 rouges tricks are placed on each other so it wouldn't impact this discussion but in a 10 man it is placed on the tank and does change things.

Bottom line is cower isn't as godd as it should be. And just because Blizz right now says they think it works fine doesn't mean it actually works fine. If we don't complain it will never be changed so there is nothing wrong with complaining about how cower works.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby Sylvaneart » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:26 am

It would be so simple to fix cower. Just make it so it can't miss. It isn't as powerful as some of the other aggro dumps but it also can be used more often than the others. Good example is Chim. Even with tank swapping i find myself #2 on threat. I usually just let it stay there until the end and start hitting cower on CD right before he goes into his 1 shot phase. It would be nice to be a rogue and wait until then end to just dump it completely, but it would be even better if they would make what we have be reliable. 10% every 6 seconds or whatever garuanteed.
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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby cynrh » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:23 pm

Thinking about it last night, I think I'd be just as happy if they simply made Thorns castable from cat form. I just feel the abilities are clunky and irritating to use; and Cower simply has had such an atrocious history as a spell that its has always gotten under my skin.

Anyway, this is a personal mountain I've made out of a relative molehill; a lot more serious issues out there. I've hated Cower since classic WoW (when I reached the raiding scene and learned that healers generated more aggro than cat dps could) and I can keep hating it I guess. I'm going to try making Hit gear my standard set and just chill a bit.

I went from Trailing Shadows recently to Malevolence and it was that Hit drop + the increased threat from a new weapon that suddenly put Cower back to the forefront of my hate list.

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Re: Dev Q&A on Unique Buffs

Postby shinryu » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:41 pm

Sylvaneart wrote:It would be so simple to fix cower. Just make it so it can't miss. It isn't as powerful as some of the other aggro dumps but it also can be used more often than the others. Good example is Chim. Even with tank swapping i find myself #2 on threat. I usually just let it stay there until the end and start hitting cower on CD right before he goes into his 1 shot phase. It would be nice to be a rogue and wait until then end to just dump it completely, but it would be even better if they would make what we have be reliable. 10% every 6 seconds or whatever garuanteed.

lol yeah, that ticks me off as well, I hate being the 2nd one to die (or rarely 3rd if the OT's aggro is up there). Kinda sucks knowing everyone else gets to live longer while I get to eat a repair bill...

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