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Weapons

Postby Vami » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:54 pm

I've been trying to find a solid answer to my weapon question, but different sources say different things. So, my question is, which is better: Tsulong's staff (normal) or Spirit Kings' polearm (heroic) ? Is the weapon damage from the polearm enough to beat the extra agility and exp from the staff or is it the other way around?

I've tried searching logs and it looks like most of the top ranking druids would have the polearm equipped (WoL top ferals). They can't all just have bad luck and no Tsulong staff drops, can they?

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Re: Weapons

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:33 pm

The normal Tsulongs staff with the Epic Gem (fully upgraded) is better then the 502 polearm (fully upgraded). The 424 more agi makes up for the difference of about 276 weapon damage.

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Re: Weapons

Postby Vaporgriffin » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:45 pm

I've been curious about this since I've been comparing the LFR Gao-rei to the normal Screaming Tiger.

To determine which is better, is it as simple as multiplying all the stats on each item by the scale factors that you get from Simcraft, then adding it all up and comparing the values?

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Re: Weapons

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:23 pm

The only 2 that really matter are the Agility and the Weapon damage. If they end up being VERY close the secondary stats aren't going to make a massive difference.

In your case the LFR staff with the gem will be better then the 489 polearm (both fully upgrade). Pretty much the only time the polearm will beat out the staff is if you have the LFR staff and the 502 polearm (again assuming you have the 500 agi gem).

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Re: Weapons

Postby Vaporgriffin » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:37 pm

Yea the scaling on WDPS and AGI outpace everything else by a huge margin, but what I mean is just, is the math that simple, just scale factor * stat value, and compare the two items? I just want to make sure I'm not missing some other modifiers or something.

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Re: Weapons

Postby Vami » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:59 pm

Thanks for the replies! Then we've got a follow-up question for this one. I did 2 sims (simulationcraft.org), changing only the equipped weapon and reforging correctly for each weapon (still normal tsulong staff & heroic spirit kings polearm) both enchanted, the staff with the 500agi gem. The staff version ended up giving higher dps. Why could that be?

Also I still wonder why so many top ranking (WoL) ferals are using the heroic polearm... Has anyone got any clues about this?

Maybe I should just believe the staff is better when almost everyone seems to agree with that but... I dunno, it just feels like I'm missing something here that should be obvious.

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Re: Weapons

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:16 pm

The staff is better. You are seeing ranking ferals using the 502 staff for many reasons though.
1. It hasn't dropped for them yet (or only the LFR one has).
2. They don't know its better.
3. Some are older parses that were achived prior to getting the staff.
4. To get really high ranks requires a little bit of luck. The stars align and you will do way better then someone who out gears you.

One thing to keep in mind is that while it's better it is not so much better that you arn't able to rank at all with it. For all of Cata Highest Ilvl was king for Ferals with the exception of the Death Wing polearm. Even then it was really close. Not everyone knows this and will just go for what gives them a higher Ilvl.

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Re: Weapons

Postby Vami » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:22 am

Alright, thank you for the answers again. Looks like I should spend more time studying things than I currently am instead of just checking a couple of things every now and then. Luckily there weren't anyone else in the raid who would've wanted the polearm but me, so that's not that big of an issue. It still annoys me that I've taken a loot I don't need, though. Gonna go whack my head on a lamp, Dobby-style...

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Re: Weapons

Postby Dysheki » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:44 am

Vaporgriffin wrote:Yea the scaling on WDPS and AGI outpace everything else by a huge margin, but what I mean is just, is the math that simple, just scale factor * stat value, and compare the two items? I just want to make sure I'm not missing some other modifiers or something.


Yup, that's pretty much it. Basically comes down to how much you trust your stat weights.
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Re: Weapons

Postby Instaqueues » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:09 am

Don't feel bad, I have the fully upgraded LFR staff (no gem in it) and took the spirit-kings polearm last week on normal. We use EPGP so I got a ton of GP for that...and I'll more than likely never use it :(

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Re: Weapons

Postby Dysheki » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:20 pm

Instaqueues wrote:Don't feel bad, I have the fully upgraded LFR staff (no gem in it) and took the spirit-kings polearm last week on normal. We use EPGP so I got a ton of GP for that...and I'll more than likely never use it :(

I always hated EPGP because you're punished for either caring about an off-spec or putting value in a side-grade/slight upgrade. Obviously there are ways around it, but I just don't agree setting a specific value to any piece.
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Re: Weapons

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:50 pm

When I did EPGP, sidegrades and offspec gear was free (1 GP) as long as the Ilvl was the same. You just didn't get priority over someone who wanted for main spec. If 2 folks went for offspec/sidegrade it was a roll off.

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Re: Weapons

Postby Instaqueues » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:04 pm

Our side-grades are 1/2 cost, but this was an 'upgrade' because I suspected it was better than the LFR staff (w/ no gem).

I'm a big fan of EPGP because it keeps the raid consistently geared together, but things like this make me kick myself in the face :P If I level enchanting and DE it, I could get the points back, because nobody needed it...but is enchanting worth that over blacksmithing, just for the GP refund?! I'm thinking no :P

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Re: Weapons

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Buy a blood spirit and a sha crystal and give it to the gbank. Really shouldn't that be enough when they see you arn't using it?

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Re: Weapons

Postby Dysheki » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:23 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:When I did EPGP, sidegrades and offspec gear was free (1 GP) as long as the Ilvl was the same. You just didn't get priority over someone who wanted for main spec. If 2 folks went for offspec/sidegrade it was a roll off.


Right, and that is a sensible way to deal with it. However early on when I was first starting to raid I was in a guild that had EPGP and barely deviated from the default. Offspec was half and sidegrades weren't considered sidegrades but rather upgrades. The raid leader was extremely stubborn (and slow).

So I guess you could say I don't hate EPGP but instead a particular instance where it was used poorly in my own personal experience.
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Re: Weapons

Postby Instaqueues » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:02 pm

Dysheki wrote:So I guess you could say I don't hate EPGP but instead a particular instance where it was used poorly in my own personal experience.


Yeah, EPGP only works if everybody's on board with it, and actually wants the raid to progress over their own gear score (ilvl now). You could easily break the system by collaborating with someone else, but most of our guild are all friends irl for ~20 years, and have been gaming together since mid-late 90s, so we just want the progression to go well.

Tinderhoof wrote:Buy a blood spirit and a sha crystal and give it to the gbank. Really shouldn't that be enough when they see you arn't using it?


This is genious lol! I'll have to see if everyone's ok with that :)

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