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Dot Clipping

Face-rippin fun.

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Dot Clipping

Postby jawsome » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:56 am

Hello i just came back from hiatus and alot of new things came out in MoP and im back on my main squeeze feral druid. I had some questions that i dont see on other guides anymore "dot clipping" i remember back in the day like wotlk had them basically my question are.

-When can i clip dots now? i heard ppl talk about when you get procs/TF/Doc/ or whatever refresh it regardless of the duration if the Rip/rake will be stronger then the previous is this true? ( other guides haven't specify if they changed or not or provided much depth)

- can i wait for TF and let Rip fall off a few seconds to apply it with a uber Rip? if so how long can i wait before its a DPS loss or should not wait at all? ( usually within 2-3 seconds of rip falling off i wait for TF i boost it up with my Engi gloves, TF and DoC every other rip basically when its up SUPER BLEEDS!!! i also do it for rake and thrash if can make it most of the time if nothing happens)

- also anyone got a opener with the new DoC? ( i usually pop berserk after i got all my stuff aka rip and SR and roll our FB's like a mad man back when, im pretty sure it changed)

Much help would be appreciated i apologize if this was discussed for MoP i surfed the web and got really nothing and i remember posting here for questions back in the day and got awsome help and feedback ^.^

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby Instaqueues » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:40 pm

That is correct, you can clip the dot if it's a stronger application. Obviously let it run as long as you can to maximize energy throughout an entire encounter, but you seem smart enough that you would know basics :P

Rip is no longer 100% uptime, unlike WotLK. However, if you CAN get 100% uptime then that would definitely make your dps skyrocket! SR is now the #1 priority before anything else, which occasionally conflicts w/ Rip times.

A super rip would be a larger DPS gain if you let it sit for a few seconds, as opposed to refreshing immediately w/ a non-buffed rip. I'm not sure about Rake / Thrash though.

I would recommend the @Stenhaldi thread for tips until it gets fixed in regards to openers.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4455

In summary, you can throw ursol's vortex under the target before you rip, and it will ignore the 3-extension limit. I would consider it bug abuse....so you'll have to make the moral decision of whether to use it or not. But if it gets us closer to top 5 DPS, then I'm all for it :)

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby jawsome » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:48 pm

very nice was not sure if i was suppose to clip or not some people say to keep it up and does not explain if i can wait for a TF if its only 3sec or less down time on Rip for a uber Rip thank you! still need to find out about rake and perhaps thrash i herd 3sec but no info on rules on refresh for a stronger rake maybe 9sec or less? and yeah i heard about the bug have not tried it myself yet but will coming raid time ^.^

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby Instaqueues » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:03 am

Not sure if it helps you, but I usually don't clip rake, and never clip a Thrash (figure my energy is better spent somewhere else). Only exception to rake is if I accidentally put one up w/o SR on it. But my #s usually work around 25-26% melee, 21-22% rip 21-22% rake, 25-26% shred (2 piece).

Obviously with the bug, the numbers are different, with rip being closer to 35%, but the general rule to follow from what I've gathered is:
Savage Roar = 100% uptime
Rake = 100% uptime
Rip = As close to 100% as you can (will more likely be in the 80%ish)

And thrash only on a clearcast when you don't need the CP, or if you are about to energy cap, but saving CP for a fresh rip (and instead of clipping rip you spend the energy on something useful)

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby jawsome » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:28 am

i see thank you =)

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:17 pm

Instaqueues wrote:Not sure if it helps you, but I usually don't clip rake, and never clip a Thrash (figure my energy is better spent somewhere else). Only exception to rake is if I accidentally put one up w/o SR on it. But my #s usually work around 25-26% melee, 21-22% rip 21-22% rake, 25-26% shred (2 piece).

Obviously with the bug, the numbers are different, with rip being closer to 35%, but the general rule to follow from what I've gathered is:
Savage Roar = 100% uptime
Rake = 100% uptime
Rip = As close to 100% as you can (will more likely be in the 80%ish)

And thrash only on a clearcast when you don't need the CP, or if you are about to energy cap, but saving CP for a fresh rip (and instead of clipping rip you spend the energy on something useful)

Actually Rake is the bleed we will end up clipping most often. In some cases it is a DPS up to use Rake 2 times in a row. It's the cheapest attack we have at 35 energy, it does very respectable direct damage (which ignores armor as its a bleed) and it gives us combo points. Things like TF, DoC, and Trinket Proc's, can make Refreshing Rake very good. Now it's really hard to know all the situations where this is a good thing to do. Using DroodFocus, and Ovale you can get an idea of when clipping Rake is.

Thrash is ok to clip if you arn't in need of a combo point, and it is below 6 seconds, and you have an OOC proc, or are about to energy cap waiting to refresh SR/Rip. While that seems like a lot of conditionals it actually happens a lot more then you think.

Based on the work of Leaf and Aggixx it is not actually the case that keeping Rip as close to 100% is the best way to go anymore. With SotF, continuing to use combo point moves after you reach 5 is a DPS loss due to how cheap our finishers become. Pooling energy for a FB even if Rip is below 9 seconds and will surely fall off will end up doing more damage then just Shredding till Rip is about to fall off and reapplying.

Because of how confusing are with our "JOHN FRIKIN MADDEN" is I really would recomend getting Ovale and Leaf's script though Nerien's Ovale scripts addon. Until you get used to the very counter intuitive way we go about executing our "rotation" it just doesn't make a lot of sense reading about it. You really have to experence the mess.

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby Instaqueues » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:29 pm

Ah, I didn't realize rake clipping was so common! I've always used Mangle if I need a cheaper CP builder, but will def. keep this in mind!

I do pool energy for FB anytime I use it. I usually only FB if Rip > 11s and SR > 18, otherwise I'll just wait till 90 energy and refresh one of those. Those are numbers I've used just on experience, but I'll try being more aggressive w/ FB. I see it all the time here about FB being a DPS increase even letting Rip expire. There's just a ton of conditions to learn, so I'm trying to absorb 1-2 at a time until those become second nature, then introduce the next variable :)

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby Vaporgriffin » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:49 pm

Instaqueues wrote:Ah, I didn't realize rake clipping was so common! I've always used Mangle if I need a cheaper CP builder, but will def. keep this in mind!

I do pool energy for FB anytime I use it. I usually only FB if Rip > 11s and SR > 18, otherwise I'll just wait till 90 energy and refresh one of those. Those are numbers I've used just on experience, but I'll try being more aggressive w/ FB. I see it all the time here about FB being a DPS increase even letting Rip expire. There's just a ton of conditions to learn, so I'm trying to absorb 1-2 at a time until those become second nature, then introduce the next variable :)


Eek mangle... I can second Tinder's suggestion to use Ovale with Nerien's script. I was against it initially, because I didn't want to rely on an addon to know my rotation, but after using it for about a week I find it more of a training tool and I expect that after another couple weeks I won't need it anymore.

While there are some times that I don't fully understand what it's telling me to do, there are other times that I've learned a lot by seeing the suggested rotation - point in case, I was using my PS immediately when it procced instead of waiting until I hit 4 CPs, and now that I have that reminder from Ovale to chill out and build CPs, I can tell my damage is already improving. It also works as a good reminder for me to use Berserk right away at the start of fights and has improved the way that I clip dots also.

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby Instaqueues » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:01 pm

Maybe I'll give it a shot :P I don't think I'm doing too horrible, because I'm consistently ranking in 10m normals, and seems like always in LFR (if somebody's logging LFR lol), with a 483 ilvl. I'll get my sha-gem this week which will help some too.

I've never been able to rely on pictures, probably because when I used to cat in WotLK I learned on badkitty, using static bars. I would venture a guess that the ovale uses pictures and not words, but hey..it's worth a shot learning the pictures!

I'd definitely like to figure out the pattern for clipping and when FB is > than Rip, etc. Wish I hadn't been tanking for the past few years, and then I wouldn't be out of the loop! But I guess if anybody needs bear advice, I do have very extensive knowledge with that! :)

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby jawsome » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:51 pm

wow so is rake the go2 combo generator? or just use it twice in what situation =o? and is mangle bad now? very good info btw things have changed! ^.^

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:21 pm

Not the go to combo point generator. It just has the nice side effect of giving a combo point when refreshing a bleed.
Often I will see a good time to refresh Rake right after one or both of my trinkets proc, I just got DoC and the previous Rake wasn't. Now there are other variables involved so again I would get some practice with Ovale instead of just trying to do it yourself.

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Re: Dot Clipping

Postby jawsome » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:56 pm

ah i see ok

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