Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by aggixx » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:52 am
In this thread I will try to keep up-to-date numbers for Talent Comparisons, Trinket Comparisons, as well as Stat Weights. All of these will be calculated using SimulationCraft.
Please keep in mind that for all comparisons you may click the respective graph and it will take you to the HTML report of that Simulation. At the top of the page you can see when the report was generated as well as how many iterations were executed (how many fights it did).
Table of Contents:
Simulation information:
At the moment, all comparisons are done using Soul of the Forest and Dream of Cenarius (unless otherwise indicated in the specific section) on a Troll druid using Engineering and Inscription. Trinkets are compared using a 510 Bottle of Infinite Stars in the second slot as a constant (some trinkets perform differently in the absence of a second trinket so this is necessary).
It's important to note that the "best in slot" profile as well as the profile used for testing does a non-insignificant amount more DPS than the baseline used in these simulations due to race and profession choices.
Disclaimer:
As with any theorycrafting tool, take these results with a grain of salt. Keep in mind all of these sims are done on Patchwerk-style (single target, no distractions) encounters played essentially perfectly, and that action lists / gear sets / etc are only as good as the person making them.
If you are personally not using the same "action list" as the simulation is there is no guarantee that these results are accurate for you. The action list used for these simulations is my local action list (the profile containing that action list can generally be found here), and is generally very similar to Leafkiller's Ovale Script.
Please keep in mind that for all comparisons you may click the respective graph and it will take you to the HTML report of that Simulation. At the top of the page you can see when the report was generated as well as how many iterations were executed (how many fights it did).
Table of Contents:
- Talent Comparisons
- Tier 4
- Tier 6
- Tier 2 Synergy
- Stat Weights
- Heart of the Wild
- Dream of Cenarius
- Nature's Vigil
- Trinket Comparisons
- Enchant Comparisons
- Racial Comparisons
Simulation information:
At the moment, all comparisons are done using Soul of the Forest and Dream of Cenarius (unless otherwise indicated in the specific section) on a Troll druid using Engineering and Inscription. Trinkets are compared using a 510 Bottle of Infinite Stars in the second slot as a constant (some trinkets perform differently in the absence of a second trinket so this is necessary).
It's important to note that the "best in slot" profile as well as the profile used for testing does a non-insignificant amount more DPS than the baseline used in these simulations due to race and profession choices.
Disclaimer:
As with any theorycrafting tool, take these results with a grain of salt. Keep in mind all of these sims are done on Patchwerk-style (single target, no distractions) encounters played essentially perfectly, and that action lists / gear sets / etc are only as good as the person making them.
If you are personally not using the same "action list" as the simulation is there is no guarantee that these results are accurate for you. The action list used for these simulations is my local action list (the profile containing that action list can generally be found here), and is generally very similar to Leafkiller's Ovale Script.
Last edited by aggixx on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 25 times in total.
Re: Trinket & Talent Rankings and Stat Weights
by aggixx » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:52 am
Talent Comparisons
This section will show you the relative value of each talent on a patchwerk-style encounter. The remaining talents are selected based on which will yield the highest DPS with the talent under analysis.
It is very important to understand that there is definitely somewhat of a confirmation bias going on in this data; that is to say that the strongest talents may be portrayed to be further ahead than the alternatives simply because they have gotten more attention in terms of optimizing the action list for use around them.
Tier 4:
Soul of the Forest should be the choice to take the vast majority of the time as not only does it put out the most DPS but it also eases rotational difficulty by supplying you more energy to work with which makes it easier to keep your bleeds up.
Incarnation should be taken if you need to optimize your damage output around small windows of time instead of across the course of the entire encounter. If your group is wiping to a certain mechanic that can be partially or entirely overcome by dealing more DPS in a small window of time and is not challenged by a fight's overall enrage timer (or the fight does not have one) or there is a short window of time where a target is taking significantly more damage then this is a strong choice.
Force of Nature is essentially the middle of the road talent between Incarnation and Soul of the Forest providing a compromise between sustained damage and burst. While at least somewhat competitive in DPS, this is a talent you should rarely if ever use. It does not ease rotational difficulty like Soul of the Forest does and has weaker, less focused burst potential than Incarnation.
Tier 6:
Dream of Cenarius is a very complicated talent that allows you to (primarily) empower your bleeds by casting in-form Healing Touches using both Predatory Swiftness and Nature's Swiftness. This talent does yield significantly more DPS in theory than any other talent in the tier, but don't let the numbers fool you, taking poor advantage of the talent's mechanics will likely lead this to be the worst choice of three. This is definitely not a beginner's talent as it adds an additional layer of complexity onto executing the feral rotation, but if you're up for the challenge then may be able to reap the rewards.
Heart of the Wild is the passive option in the tier, the above DPS figure being solely the passive bonus. The 6 minute cooldown active effect has allows you to "hybridize" into all of the other combat roles for 45 seconds, which can provide a very significant amount of utility to the raid. The intent of this active is allow you to perform at 100% of the performance of any other role, although this isn't always the case in practice. To achieve maximum effect, you should always switch to an appropriate weapon for the role you plan to perform as. With that in mind, your Tranquility becomes a raid cooldown comparable in caliber to a healers (or potentially stronger), your Hurricane is one of the most potent AoEs in the game (and has zero ramp-up and is completely spammable due to costing no mana), your Wrath deals comparable single target DPS to your Feral rotation, and bosses will still probably 1 shot you in Bear Form. If there is more than a few targets for a sustained period of time, this talent becomes a pretty strong choice due to Hurricane's great AoE damage. If not, it still provides significantly more utility than any other choice in the tier while providing competitive DPS solely due to the passive.
Nature's Vigil is more or less a simply "push this button for more damage" spell that has a small raid utility flair of healing your raid or party members when you deal damage. Similar to Heart of the Wild, this talent is quite simple to manage and should always be activated at the same time as Berserk. While the healing isn't something that's necessarily worth disregarding, it's utility value is significantly less than that of Heart of the Wild as you may often find that saving it for periods of time where the raid needs it most will gimp your DPS significantly due to it's synergy with our other offensive cooldowns. With the change to this talent 5.2 (halving both the cooldown and the effect) it is a very poor choice in a patchwerk situation, but in practice this talent may still be valuable on encounters that have significant amounts of downtime or periods of significantly increased damage potential.
Tier 2 Synergy:
Due to the hybrid theme of this tier, some of the talents in Tier 6 have DPS-related interactions with the talents in Tier 2.
Heart of the Wild: N/A
Dream of Cenarius: Since neither Renewal or Cenarion Ward trigger the damage component of Dream of Cenarius, Nature's Swiftness is the clear choice here. Using Nature's Swiftness correctly (on Rips above 25% HP and Ferocious Bites below) is many worth thousands of DPS in BiS gear, so one could easily say that Nature's Swiftness is the mandatory choice if you're using Dream of Cenarius.
Nature's Vigil: During Nature's Vigil, 25% of all healing you do is converted to damage to a nearby target which means you want the talent that allows you to do the most healing in that 30 second window. Cenarion Ward is the best choice for this (especially if you can apply it just before you activate NV and right at the end), followed by NS and then Renewal. This is a very small DPS gain so you should heavily consider if using your T2 for survivability is a better choice and choose accordingly.
This section will show you the relative value of each talent on a patchwerk-style encounter. The remaining talents are selected based on which will yield the highest DPS with the talent under analysis.
It is very important to understand that there is definitely somewhat of a confirmation bias going on in this data; that is to say that the strongest talents may be portrayed to be further ahead than the alternatives simply because they have gotten more attention in terms of optimizing the action list for use around them.
Tier 4:
Soul of the Forest should be the choice to take the vast majority of the time as not only does it put out the most DPS but it also eases rotational difficulty by supplying you more energy to work with which makes it easier to keep your bleeds up.
Incarnation should be taken if you need to optimize your damage output around small windows of time instead of across the course of the entire encounter. If your group is wiping to a certain mechanic that can be partially or entirely overcome by dealing more DPS in a small window of time and is not challenged by a fight's overall enrage timer (or the fight does not have one) or there is a short window of time where a target is taking significantly more damage then this is a strong choice.
Force of Nature is essentially the middle of the road talent between Incarnation and Soul of the Forest providing a compromise between sustained damage and burst. While at least somewhat competitive in DPS, this is a talent you should rarely if ever use. It does not ease rotational difficulty like Soul of the Forest does and has weaker, less focused burst potential than Incarnation.
Tier 6:
Dream of Cenarius is a very complicated talent that allows you to (primarily) empower your bleeds by casting in-form Healing Touches using both Predatory Swiftness and Nature's Swiftness. This talent does yield significantly more DPS in theory than any other talent in the tier, but don't let the numbers fool you, taking poor advantage of the talent's mechanics will likely lead this to be the worst choice of three. This is definitely not a beginner's talent as it adds an additional layer of complexity onto executing the feral rotation, but if you're up for the challenge then may be able to reap the rewards.
Heart of the Wild is the passive option in the tier, the above DPS figure being solely the passive bonus. The 6 minute cooldown active effect has allows you to "hybridize" into all of the other combat roles for 45 seconds, which can provide a very significant amount of utility to the raid. The intent of this active is allow you to perform at 100% of the performance of any other role, although this isn't always the case in practice. To achieve maximum effect, you should always switch to an appropriate weapon for the role you plan to perform as. With that in mind, your Tranquility becomes a raid cooldown comparable in caliber to a healers (or potentially stronger), your Hurricane is one of the most potent AoEs in the game (and has zero ramp-up and is completely spammable due to costing no mana), your Wrath deals comparable single target DPS to your Feral rotation, and bosses will still probably 1 shot you in Bear Form. If there is more than a few targets for a sustained period of time, this talent becomes a pretty strong choice due to Hurricane's great AoE damage. If not, it still provides significantly more utility than any other choice in the tier while providing competitive DPS solely due to the passive.
Nature's Vigil is more or less a simply "push this button for more damage" spell that has a small raid utility flair of healing your raid or party members when you deal damage. Similar to Heart of the Wild, this talent is quite simple to manage and should always be activated at the same time as Berserk. While the healing isn't something that's necessarily worth disregarding, it's utility value is significantly less than that of Heart of the Wild as you may often find that saving it for periods of time where the raid needs it most will gimp your DPS significantly due to it's synergy with our other offensive cooldowns. With the change to this talent 5.2 (halving both the cooldown and the effect) it is a very poor choice in a patchwerk situation, but in practice this talent may still be valuable on encounters that have significant amounts of downtime or periods of significantly increased damage potential.
Tier 2 Synergy:
Due to the hybrid theme of this tier, some of the talents in Tier 6 have DPS-related interactions with the talents in Tier 2.
Heart of the Wild: N/A
Dream of Cenarius: Since neither Renewal or Cenarion Ward trigger the damage component of Dream of Cenarius, Nature's Swiftness is the clear choice here. Using Nature's Swiftness correctly (on Rips above 25% HP and Ferocious Bites below) is many worth thousands of DPS in BiS gear, so one could easily say that Nature's Swiftness is the mandatory choice if you're using Dream of Cenarius.
Nature's Vigil: During Nature's Vigil, 25% of all healing you do is converted to damage to a nearby target which means you want the talent that allows you to do the most healing in that 30 second window. Cenarion Ward is the best choice for this (especially if you can apply it just before you activate NV and right at the end), followed by NS and then Renewal. This is a very small DPS gain so you should heavily consider if using your T2 for survivability is a better choice and choose accordingly.
Last edited by aggixx on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:13 pm, edited 20 times in total.
Re: Trinket & Talent Rankings and Stat Weights
by aggixx » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:14 am
Stat Weights
These values are calculated using a profile that has 1 RPPM-based trinket (or two in the case of the Rune of Re-Origination weights), as well as the legendary Capacitive Primal Diamond. If you do not have these things, you can expect haste to be worth less the fewer of them you have, down to the point where it is likely worse than crit.
Heart of the Wild (passive only):
Dream of Cenarius:
Nature's Vigil:
Rune of Re-Origination:
These values are calculated using a profile that has 1 RPPM-based trinket (or two in the case of the Rune of Re-Origination weights), as well as the legendary Capacitive Primal Diamond. If you do not have these things, you can expect haste to be worth less the fewer of them you have, down to the point where it is likely worse than crit.
Heart of the Wild (passive only):
Spoiler: show
Dream of Cenarius:
Spoiler: show
Nature's Vigil:
Spoiler: show
Rune of Re-Origination:
Spoiler: show
Last edited by aggixx on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:04 pm, edited 22 times in total.
Re: Trinket & Talent Rankings and Stat Weights
by aggixx » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:33 am
Trinket Comparisons
Dream of Cenarius:
Heart of the Wild:
Things to consider about how talents affect trinket values:
Dream of Cenarius:
Spoiler: show
Heart of the Wild:
Spoiler: show
Things to consider about how talents affect trinket values:
- If you're an engineer, trinkets that have a cooldown of 1, 2, or 3 minutes will be slightly decreased in value, and trinkets that have a cooldown of 1.5 or 2.5 minutes will be significantly decreased in value. This is because of Synapse Springs' interaction with your spec cooldowns.
- If you're using the Heart of the Wild talent, trinkets that have agility on them will be of increased value because of the talent's 6% increase to agility.
- If you're using the Dream of Cenarius talent, trinkets that have mastery on them will be of increased value because of the talent's interaction with bleeds.
- If you're using the Nature's Vigil or Incarnation talents, trinkets that have a 1, 1.5, or 3 minute cooldown use effect on them will be of increased value due to being able to keep the trinket synchronized with your 3 minute cooldowns.
- If you're using the activated effect of the Heart of the Wild talent to deal spell damage, use effect trinkets and trinkets that are capable of proccing from Wrath or Hurricane will be of increased value.
- If you have doubts about the relative value of these trinkets under your particular circumstance, I would encourage you to try using SimulationCraft to sim your character, or feel free to ask in this thread.
Last edited by aggixx on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:01 pm, edited 13 times in total.
Re: Trinket & Talent Rankings and Stat Weights
by aggixx » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:34 am
Enchant Comparison
Melee Weapon:
Caster Weapon (for HotW active effect):
The enchant comparison for Hurricane spam is similar to that for Wrath spam.
This comparison was done in T14, however the results have not since changed.
Melee Weapon:
Caster Weapon (for HotW active effect):
The enchant comparison for Hurricane spam is similar to that for Wrath spam.
This comparison was done in T14, however the results have not since changed.
Last edited by aggixx on Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Trinket & Talent Rankings and Stat Weights
by aggixx » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:47 am
One more for good measure.
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Xube » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:44 pm
This is a pretty detailed post.
Thanks for the research!
I have a question though. i see that you have listed the stat weights for each last teir skill. Currently i use a dual spec of DoC and the other for HotW.
I have been looking for a way to get Askmrrobot to work in my favor. Because it is wrong it does make me gem all weird. So Can i actually use these stat weights for that?
and if not (which i will try to do tonight after work)
So if not, what can i use these stat weights for?
Thanks!
Thanks for the research!
I have a question though. i see that you have listed the stat weights for each last teir skill. Currently i use a dual spec of DoC and the other for HotW.
I have been looking for a way to get Askmrrobot to work in my favor. Because it is wrong it does make me gem all weird. So Can i actually use these stat weights for that?
and if not (which i will try to do tonight after work)
So if not, what can i use these stat weights for?
Thanks!
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Instaqueues » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:22 pm
Xube,
You can plug those weights into Mr. Robot. The only thing I hate about that is to get hit/exp capped gauranteed, you have to weight those so high it looks ridiculous. I usually put a 15.0 weight on hit/exp, otherwise it likes to keep me just below cap.
You can plug those weights into Mr. Robot. The only thing I hate about that is to get hit/exp capped gauranteed, you have to weight those so high it looks ridiculous. I usually put a 15.0 weight on hit/exp, otherwise it likes to keep me just below cap.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Tinderhoof » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:28 pm
Wowreforge.com is way better for doing what you are looking for. They have options (on by default) for you to reach stat caps for any type you want. If you want to reforge your haste for a specific level, just put it in the box, and you are set. If you are in Feral Spec, you just go with the defaults.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Instaqueues » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:56 pm
Let me give that a shot, because I'm trying to figure out if the darkmoon trinket will be worth getting over some others that are realistically available to me soon.
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by aggixx » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:04 pm
AskMrRobot is a great gear optimization tool but the reforge engine behind it is admittedly weak. While its suggestions for gemming and enchanting will be spot on (given you're using the correct weights) I much prefer to use WoWReforge or ReforgeLite for reforges.
But yes, if you just throw those stat weights into any of those 3 tools you should get pretty accurate results. Keep in mind that weights for your character might be a bit different than weights in best in slot gear, but at the moment it doesn't change things up significantly so you should be able to use these no problem.
But yes, if you just throw those stat weights into any of those 3 tools you should get pretty accurate results. Keep in mind that weights for your character might be a bit different than weights in best in slot gear, but at the moment it doesn't change things up significantly so you should be able to use these no problem.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Tinderhoof » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:13 pm
Short answer is "Yes". Until you start getting heroic raiding trinkets the Darkmoon card will be #1 or #2.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Instaqueues » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:21 pm
Thanks for this guide, and responses! Your answers match SimCraft, with various trinket combinations. For my gear it looks like Searing Words & Relic put me at about 82.9k, and Relic & Jade Bandit Figurine give me 82.8k. Looks like. Now to get the $$ for a relic! 
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by coool12 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:24 am
nice posts...........
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Kioga » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:45 pm
Any idea where the new (496) Arrowflight Medallion trink ranks on the list?
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Tinderhoof » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:05 pm
Its on the list as Wound Ripper (the Horde version).
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Arctagon » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:50 pm
Thank you for the comprehensive list, aggixx.
I have a couple of questions. How do you compare talents and trinkets in SimC, getting those bar charts up? Also, is there any good or usable character planners out there, like chardev used to be?
I have a couple of questions. How do you compare talents and trinkets in SimC, getting those bar charts up? Also, is there any good or usable character planners out there, like chardev used to be?
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Irbis » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:04 pm
Thank you for your work.
I am a bit confused about the stat weights and was hoping you could help me out there.
What was the Tier 4 talent used to gain the stat values?
Or are the simulations made with only Tier 6 talents?, and if they are made with only the Tier 6 talents, wouldn't the tier 4 talent choice influence the stat values?
I am a bit confused about the stat weights and was hoping you could help me out there.
What was the Tier 4 talent used to gain the stat values?
Or are the simulations made with only Tier 6 talents?, and if they are made with only the Tier 6 talents, wouldn't the tier 4 talent choice influence the stat values?
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by aggixx » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:46 am
Arctagon wrote:Thank you for the comprehensive list, aggixx.
I have a couple of questions. How do you compare talents and trinkets in SimC, getting those bar charts up? Also, is there any good or usable character planners out there, like chardev used to be?
It's just a screenshot + crop of the graph on the HTML report spit out by SimC. For character planning I believe CharDev still works although I could be wrong, but you can also do the same thing with AskMrRobot.
Irbis wrote:Thank you for your work.
I am a bit confused about the stat weights and was hoping you could help me out there.
What was the Tier 4 talent used to gain the stat values?
Or are the simulations made with only Tier 6 talents?, and if they are made with only the Tier 6 talents, wouldn't the tier 4 talent choice influence the stat values?
Sorry, I had it in the description at some point. They are all done with Soul of the Forest as the other two alternatives tend to be very very situational. And yes, it probably does.
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Stenhaldi » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:28 am
Are you using the PTR version of Woundripper Medallion (with 2822 crit)? I'm not seeing how the live version (with 3838 crit) could compare so poorly.
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by aggixx » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:14 pm
That'd be the case, working on updating the rankings atm.
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by aggixx » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:09 pm
Trinket comparisons updated, now also includes upgraded versions of 5 man heroic trinkets.
Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Eralia » Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:53 pm
Is there any reliable Sims, that confirm the EJ post about haste being the best secondary stat depending on the Talentcombination?
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)
by Tinderhoof » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:06 pm
Could you link us to that post? Do you know if it was prior to the HotW nerf after week 2 of the new tier?
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