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Two Target bleed cleave rotation

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Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby Zerglings » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:01 pm

I did some math using the damage values from Imperial Vizier Zor'lok (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/qn7f ... 409&e=1761) and the numbers seem to show that for 2 targets, the optimal dps is to use mangle.

The rotation used is the single target rotation except subbing shred for {mangle, shred, swipe}

For my scenario:
* SotF, HotW, no set bonuses
* Assumes 2 targets that will live a long time (such as stone guard fight)
* For simplicity, I will only use non crit values when determining damage
* Assume 25% crit chance for combo point generation
* Swipe damage was taken from a wind lord parse in which trash was always on the targets (so 35,738 slightly over estimates the damage, making my point even stronger)
*Rip average non-crit tick was 32,708, without set bonuses or mangle extending, thats 8 ticks per rip, for a total of 52,333 damage per combo point. With 3 mangle/shred extensions, thats 71,958 per combo point. With 4-set bonus, thats 85,041 damage per combo point

1.) Mangle average damage was 35,858 plus 1.25 combo points*52,333 damage per combo point for a total of 2858 damage per energy
2.) Shred average damage was 45,032 plus 1.25 combo points * 52,333 damage per combo point for a total of 2750 damage per energy
3.) Swipe average damage was 35,738*2 (2 targets) plus 1 combo point * 52,333 damage per combo point for a total of 2743 damage per energy

However, if we take into account 4 set bonus without rip extending (65,416 damage per combo point), it becomes:
1.) Mangle: 3337 damage per energy
2.) Shred: 3170 damage per energy
3.) Swipe 3042 damage per energy

Furthermore, if we manage to get 3 rip extensions on each target AND have 4 set bonus (85,041 damage per combo point), it becomes:
1.) Mangle: 4002 damage per energy
2.) Shred: 3752 damage per energy
3.) Swipe: 3478 damage per energy

Mangle comes out as the clear winner in all 3 scenarios.

The math above assumes that you will always be able to put a fresh rip on a target without clipping an old one. Since it takes 35*5/1.25+10 = 150 energy for a 5 combo point rip means that it takes 300 energy to apply a rip to second target, then generate enough combo points for a new rip on first target. Thats enough time so that the first rip (even with 4set and 3 extensions) would have expired, plus we still have to spend some energy maintaining SR.

I was wondering if anyone else had tried this out or someone with good simulation expertise was able to prove or refute that this mangle rotation is optimal for two target bleed cleave

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby Sorcerer » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:03 pm

Symbiosis warlock, spec DoC and move ur RiP after 3 extensions, although the mangle/shred ratio looks nice for 3rd target swap.

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby Frozzenfire » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:24 pm

well your dots dont stay on the target when you use soul swap, but still soul swap can be good on target switch fights.

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:22 pm

Your DoT's don't but your Combo points do. Very easy to move the extended Rip and have just 1 combo point to get on the current target.

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby Zerglings » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:24 am

I tried this out last night on amber shaper and it seemed to work well for me, but its tough to gauge dps on a fight like that.

What I did was essentially single target rotation subbing mangle for shred, but in this overly simplified format.

1.) 5 point rip on boss
2.) mangle extend 3 times (3-4 combo points usually)
3.) Reapply rake (4-5 combo points)
4.) Soul swap to newly spawned reshape life
5.) if 4 combo points rake, if 5 rip, then rake
6.) mangle extend x3
7.) at 4 combo points, reapply rake*
8.) SR
9.) Switch and hit add until <20%
10.)Repeat

*Reason for reapplying rake is that when we switch targets, the rake will wear off. Refreshing rake with last combo point before a target switch is generally a dps increase if the current rake has ticked AT LEAST once. (so 3 seconds since last application) But be sure to account for procs.

By the time the add gets to 20%, the bleeds are just wearing off the boss, so there is really high bleed uptime using max combo point generation with mangle.

If shred were used instead, it would take longer to generate the combo points, therefore, take longer to reapply bleeds to other target. I believe that having the higher bleed uptime is more of a dps increase (math on first post), than the damage loss incurred by subbing mangle for shred

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby Growlgrrl » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:56 pm

I'm sorry if I missed something but under what conditions does mangle do more dmg per attack than shred?

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby Zerglings » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:51 pm

Mangle does less damage than shred, but it costs 12.5% less energy (or generates 14% more combo points) than shred. Using these extra combo points to maintain a higher uptime of rip on two targets should prove to be a dps increase.

Against 1 target, shred is optimal because we have enough combo point generation to maintain rip & we cannot "improve" rip uptime by generating cheaper (more) combo points.

[EDITED] However, against 3+ targets see below rake cleave rotation
Last edited by Zerglings on Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby kaiadam » Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:24 pm

Are you sure swipe > rake cleave on 3 targets?

What I do now is thrash, rake on the 3 targets, and make sure rip is rolling on one, but if swipe turns out to be better dps then I'm all for simplifying my priority list :)

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby aggixx » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:50 pm

You're making a lot of assumptions here considering you haven't simmed anything. You probably can improve rip uptime on a single target by using mangle but the difference is negligible, and rake cleave w/ swipe fillers beats swipe spam all the way up to 8 targets (having trouble finding my original post on it =().
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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby Alpheus » Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:53 am

aggixx wrote:You're making a lot of assumptions here considering you haven't simmed anything. You probably can improve rip uptime on a single target by using mangle but the difference is negligible, and rake cleave w/ swipe fillers beats swipe spam all the way up to 8 targets (having trouble finding my original post on it =().


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=879&start=50

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby Zerglings » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:10 am

[EDITED] Thanks for the post on rake cleave for up to 8 targets. This was very helpful and I appreciate it, however the point in this post was to optimize a 2 target bleed cleave rotation.

aggixx wrote:You're making a lot of assumptions here considering you haven't simmed anything. You probably can improve rip uptime on a single target by using mangle but the difference is negligible, and rake cleave w/ swipe fillers beats swipe spam all the way up to 8 targets (having trouble finding my original post on it =().


You say the difference in rip uptime is negligible, is there a simulation that supports this for two targets? In the past 2 weeks of raiding, I noticed a non-negligible dps improvement.

Against two targets, I can maintain a near 100% uptime on rake and 5 combo point rips. Rake Cleave w/ swipe fillers (in practice) would not give me the combo point generation at 487 ilvl to maintain ~100% rip percentages. Perhaps as I get better gear, I would have enough energy gen / combo point gen, to maintain near 100% uptime with a swipe filler.

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby aggixx » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:50 pm

I was replying to where you said that mangle was a loss on a single target, I don't think that's necessarily for certain. Subbing out shred entirely for mangle is a loss (0.11%), yes, but any combination of the two is just something we haven't looked into yet. The gain would likely be negligible but it wouldn't for certain be a wash.

On the 8 target thing, I suppose I skimmed a little too much, heh :lol:

Also, it's probably worth distinguishing that the optimal method of 2 target DPS may be very very different solely based on the availability of a Warlock symbiosis.
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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby kaiadam » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:22 pm

I must be missing something here, but what does soulswap contribute?

You're building up bleeds on one target twice, vs just tabbing and building up bleeds on two targets. Do the rip extensions get reset when you soulswap?

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Re: Two Target bleed cleave rotation

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:06 pm

It doesn't reset, but the 3-5 combo points you generated extending the Rip stay on your current target. Execute the soul swap and you can kick off another Rip/Rake on the current target.

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