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Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:13 am

If there are no combo points will it pool energy to 80 and then recommend mangle or will it go to mangle immediately?

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Jeshu » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:17 am

Leafkiller wrote:If there are no combo points will it pool energy to 80 and then recommend mangle or will it go to mangle immediately?

Using the following example:
Code: Select all
{
    wait if Energy(more 80) Spell(FEROCIOUS_BITE)
    Spell(MANGLECAT)
}

If there are no combo points, then Spell(FEROCIOUS_BITE) evaluates to "false" so the whole "wait" statement is "false", so it goes to the next node. In other words, it goes to the Mangle immediately.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:21 am

Cool. I think I get it. When I have some time I will test it out to make sure my understanding is correct. Thanks for adding this capability :)

On a related note, the fast combo point recognition feature in Ovale has made a huge difference in lowering the amount of flickering in the script - the recommendations are much more stable now.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Jeshu » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:28 am

It took a bit of time to implement the "wait" feature because I wanted to think things through and make sure that it wouldn't break priorities (which are not a commonly-used Ovale feature, but it's a core part of the language). This implementation should make it simple to translate the SimC "pool_resource" action. I think it's actually easier to use, e.g.:
Code: Select all
#pool_resource,if=buff_conditions&energy_conditions
#ferocious_bite,if=buff_conditions
wait if BuffConditions() and EnergyConditions() Spell(ferocious_bite)

It takes those two lines and turns it into one statement, so it's a bit more DRY.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:48 am

I am assumming that wait is only looking at the energy conditions. I was not sure from your first examples if I could include the BuffConditions on the same line or if I needed to do it with a preceding if statement:

Code: Select all
if BuffConditions()
    wait if EnergyCondtions() Spell(FerociousBite)

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Jeshu » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:51 am

Leafkiller wrote:I am assumming that wait is only looking at the energy conditions. I was not sure from your first examples if I could include the BuffConditions on the same line or if I needed to do it with a preceding if statement:

Code: Select all
if BuffConditions()
    wait if EnergyCondtions() Spell(FerociousBite)

Yes, actually, your code is correct; mine was typed too quickly.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Grenache » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:37 am

Hi guys, I posted this query in another thread, but was just wondering if you are seeing a surfeit of Rake suggestions in the current Nerein Leafkiller script. For me it is occurring in place of Shred, not just during TF, but at other times.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:31 am

Grenache wrote:Hi guys, I posted this query in another thread, but was just wondering if you are seeing a surfeit of Rake suggestions in the current Nerein Leafkiller script. For me it is occurring in place of Shred, not just during TF, but at other times.

Rake will overwrite anytime it can gain at least 12%. This does chain sometimes when you get trinket procs followed by TF. Given that we can't fully predict the future, this seems correct, or at least correct enough. There may be some refinements possible, but that would introduce more complexity - assuming we found some which is not guaranteed. For example we don't know how long it will be before TF comes when we clip for a trinket since we might get omen procs. If we find better logic I will update the script.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:32 am

Is it perhaps being suggested when your trinkets proc?

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:38 am

Adding to my last post. Keep in mind that the initial hit of Rake does decent damage, and if even one additional tick happens before the next clip then the 12% damage increase measures as a dps up over Shred. Also consider how often this happens. I usually see it at the start of the fight where everything lines up, but not that often throughout a fight. I mostly play HotW though, so I am not seeing how often this happens with DoC where the DoC proc would likely make this more common.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Grenache » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:24 am

Thanks for the quick replies. I only use HotW, but I hadnt realised how sophisticated the script had become nowdays. It never occured to me it might be responding to trinket procs etc. I have been a user of Ovale since the early days and its amazing how far its come.

P.s I promise finally put up my G13 mappings soon. I have finally managed to wean myself off the keyboard and its paid dividends on Will, Attenuation and anything else strafe-heavy.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Vami » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:32 pm

Leafkiller wrote:Adding to my last post. Keep in mind that the initial hit of Rake does decent damage, and if even one additional tick happens before the next clip then the 12% damage increase measures as a dps up over Shred. Also consider how often this happens. I usually see it at the start of the fight where everything lines up, but not that often throughout a fight. I mostly play HotW though, so I am not seeing how often this happens with DoC where the DoC proc would likely make this more common.


I tried Ovale for a couple of days while playing DoC, and I can verify this. Ovale suggested clipping almost every other Rake, unless you really had a lot of luck when applying Rakes in the first place. Although, as I don't normally use Ovale, I don't know how reliable my Ovale+DoC research really is.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Instaqueues » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:02 am

I finally broke down and downloaded this :O I went from 1k below my sim on a dummy to 2k above it :O It is definitely more aggresive with FB and clipping rakes than I've always been, but it obviously worked :)

1 small suggestion that kind of annoyed me was it has me do TF, then NS/HT, when in my opinion it should be the other way around to get the full time out of TF. Perhaps it doesn't matter too much because I can empty my energy either way, but if I happen to get a OOC proc, then that's a global I coulda used during TF. Meh, just my only complaint/observation.

But it looks great leafkiller! Thanks for all the hard work!!

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Etapicx » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:21 am

As insta said that i'd like to see a change on also, When we'r @ 3th Combo Point and SR is off or just has 1-1,5 sec wouldn't it be better to throw a HT in case you Proc PS on 3rd CP the DoC will most likely not hit 5th CP anyways for a finisher and i do believe it would be a greater DPS lost overwriting the PS buff.
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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:47 pm

Etapicx wrote:As insta said that i'd like to see a change on also, When we'r @ 3th Combo Point and SR is off or just has 1-1,5 sec wouldn't it be better to throw a HT in case you Proc PS on 3rd CP the DoC will most likely not hit 5th CP anyways for a finisher and i do believe it would be a greater DPS lost overwriting the PS buff.


Interesting questions. The downside of tossing out a HT right before TF is the potential to delay it due to exceeding the energy constraints. Of course, casting the HT during the TF can cause energy loss due to capping not to mention losing one of the 15% increased damage casts. The challenge becomes determining what the rules should be, and of course, verifying them with large numbers of simulations.

I would invite both of you to take a look at the sim script and see if you can find some changes that produce a meaningful change in the dps. I am very time constrained right now and lack the time to do serious sim work, so any help that people can provide would be welcomed.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Sorcerer » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:23 pm

As mentioned above, possible fix of pre TF PS use would be adding a new tickable option in ovale just for testing purposes in game atm along sim.

Biggest issue that in my opinion still needs tweaking is:
- not using PS procs around SR low CP procs or thereafter (my guess it is pain in the ass and very difficult with script priority list etc.)
- You might not believe it, but the FB script is too tight sometimes during BiTW... Becouse well known RiP tick bug when RiP sometimes drops earlier than the timer suggest, you might actually have ur Rip not refreshed during BITW phase. It happens, rarely but if it does after applying perfect buffed RIP and drops at high %, nerdrage for some players for sure ;) Even at my 506ilev it happens so I keep an eye on it more carefully. My guess would be moving FB protection for BITW phase 0.5sec earlier or a bit more if not at 5cp.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:05 pm

I think we can handle most things in the sim script (other than bugs/shortcomings in the code) - it is really a question of deciding what the rules should be.

I am already allowing 2.9 seconds on the less than 5 combo point FB during BitW. It is a little surprising that it is dropping off. Are you using DoC when you have seen it drop? The HT code for DoC is ahead of the BitW FB along with the Berserk/TF logic. Maybe the HT is an issue. There is also the emergency SR conditional.

In the simc script the clearcasting thrash even happens before the emergency FB...which is different in my script.

If nothing else, I could simply move the FB conditional ahead of everything else. I think I will run that through a quick sim and see if it causes any other issues. My guess is that it will be dps neutral, and a safe change we can make. Even if SR is down for a single FB that is less than 5 combo points, it should not impact dps much - certainly not compared to losing Rip.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:01 am

The simc script had the emergency FB refresh a 2 seconds. I tested it at 2.9 seconds and moved it to the top of the script with no dps loss (maybe 30dps higher) at 25k iterations. Next time I release the script I will make that change.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby ShmooDude » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:05 am

Leafkiller wrote:I think we can handle most things in the sim script (other than bugs/shortcomings in the code) - it is really a question of deciding what the rules should be.

I am already allowing 2.9 seconds on the less than 5 combo point FB during BitW. It is a little surprising that it is dropping off. Are you using DoC when you have seen it drop? The HT code for DoC is ahead of the BitW FB along with the Berserk/TF logic. Maybe the HT is an issue. There is also the emergency SR conditional.

In the simc script the clearcasting thrash even happens before the emergency FB...which is different in my script.

If nothing else, I could simply move the FB conditional ahead of everything else. I think I will run that through a quick sim and see if it causes any other issues. My guess is that it will be dps neutral, and a safe change we can make. Even if SR is down for a single FB that is less than 5 combo points, it should not impact dps much - certainly not compared to losing Rip.


The reason FB falls off is because Rip is bugged when it comes to extending the duration (which actually plays in our favor oddly enough).

I did some tests using fraps and got the following:

5.8 -> 9.7 = 3.1 seconds
8.4 -> 11.? = 2.6+ seconds (didn't have decimal point precision)
6.1 -> 9.4 = 3.3 seconds
Total Rip duration = ~25.? seconds (could be anywhere from 25.0 to 25.9)
Total Ticks = 12
Rip drops at 1.8 (25.8 estimated seconds)

3.8 -> 7.5 = 3.7 seconds
5.3 -> 8.4 = 3.1 seconds
6.4 -> 9.7 = 3.3 seconds
Total Rip Duration = ~26.1 seconds
Total Ticks = 13
Rip drops at 0.5 (26.5 estimated seconds)

3.6 -> 7.1 = 3.5 seconds
5.9 -> 8.2 = 3.3 seconds
7.7 -> 11.? = 2.3+ seconds
Total Rip Duration = ~25.? seconds (anywhere from 25.1 to 26.0)
Total Ticks = 12
Rip drops at 1.7 (25.7 estimated seconds)

No Haste test (to see if it was maybe affected by that)
4.4 -> 6.7 = 3.3 seconds
4.3 -> 8.2 = 3.9 seconds
5.0 -> 7.6 = 2.6 seconds
Total Rip Duration = 25.8 seconds
Total Ticks = 12
Rip drops at 1.7 (25.7 estimated seconds)


So, basically Rip is being extended without much consistency. In addition to the above test, I did some shorter tests (a couple dozen w/o fraps) and got anywhere from 11 to 13 ticks (12 and 13 being more common than 11). If I would hazard a guess, I'd say its adding 2+(TimeToNextTick) (so anywhere from 2.00 -> 3.99). This is likely caused by the refresh mechanic for dots. For example rake gets 15+TimeToNextTick so for example if you refresh at 6.1 seconds you get a 15 + 0.1 second Rake but if you refresh at 5.9 seconds you get a 15 + 2.9 second Rake.

It doesn't seem possible to predict when Rip will *actually* fall off (even by tracking at which point the ticks take place, client/server disconnect). (even at ticks occurring at 0.6 I could have it fall off at both 1.7 and 0.5)

As far as the script goes, I would probably try to compensate for this. Simplest way would be to simply refresh at 4.0 seconds. For bitw anyhow, for normal rotation I don't know if it'd be worth it (losing probably a half second up time every now and then vs the extra ticks). Could this be simmed somehow? (probably not easily)

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Sorcerer » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:51 pm

I was thinkin Leaf, wouldnt it be a good idea to add new tickable option to maintain min. 4CP SR?

This option, could theoretically help players to an extent during cleave / aoe fights where keeping 0-2CP Savage Roar's does more bad than good while you are trying to maintain DoTs on 2 targets. Thing that comes to my mind would be at glance stone guards. I guess it could help some ferals that are still behind the top pack.

This however, might make the script less understandable.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:05 pm

Sorcerer wrote:I was thinkin Leaf, wouldnt it be a good idea to add new tickable option to maintain min. 4CP SR?

This option, could theoretically help players to an extent during cleave / aoe fights where keeping 0-2CP Savage Roar's does more bad than good while you are trying to maintain DoTs on 2 targets. Thing that comes to my mind would be at glance stone guards. I guess it could help some ferals that are still behind the top pack.

This however, might make the script less understandable.


I am no sure this would be a dps up for a cleave fight. In general the script does try to use as many combo points as possible on SR, but i am not sure how that behaves in a cleave fight when switching back and forth between targets.

I am not sure if you are using the predictive box or not, but I recently added an option to move the predictive box to the left of the main rotation, and make it a small box (along with an additional box that tracks a few cooldowns). I have been thinking about adding a new large box just to the right the main rotation (it would be third if you still have the predictive box on the right of the main rotation) specifically for an AoE rotation. I also want to do that for the Guardian rotation as I do not like having the AoE rotation on top of the main rotation - swapping it during combat is annoying imo. Assuming we come up with an optimized cleave rotation, I could add a checkbox for swapping the AOE box between cleave and straight AOE rotations. The one thing I am not sure is easy to deal with is swapping between multi-target Rake and Swipe - but the main rotation will ask for Rake if you are tab targeting so the user can extrapolate what to do watching both the main rotation box and an AoE box.

Before I try to make any changes for cleave, I would like to see some sim work done to optimize a rotation for it.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Sorcerer » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:20 pm

Main issue, for those who would follow ovale script for a fight like stone guard, will be that sometimes, due to switching and randomness of combo points builded and target swaping while trying to maintain as much of a rip/rake/trash will be a scenario where, due to the swaping nature, you will be often suggested sub optimal 0-1CP Savage Roars.

A 0-1CP Savage Roar is really suboptimal in such scenario, becouse sometimes you might have trouble to maintain more than lets say ex. 100-140% Rip uptime (100% for 1 target) due to having to refresh SR, and while you go for double rip, you might not have enough CP to build 2nd rip AND enough CP for Roar. 0 CP roar in such scenario completly cripples a player if TF is still on long cooldown to build enough CP for even that 1 RIP.
Furthermore, such ocasion where 0-1 CP SR is suggested, can come very often and there is nothing you can do unless you play on ur own around it, and at some point brute force a 4-5CP SR on your own, while either sacrificing a rip or using CP builders without SR up at all for few seconds. This however, really plays in your favor later becouse long SR does let you handle double rip/thrash in an easier maner.

From a developer view, it is really hard to build a script for those who are still mastering the class and those who are already far into it. I guess there is never an easy solution how to make it appealing for top and mediocre players. Maybe later in a future, it could be worth to maintain some form of fight defining UI what you are looking for fight X, Y, Z.

I hardly have a need for this, but as community, I feel obliged to look for a solution to those still mastering the class.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Instaqueues » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:48 pm

I tend to use this script while I'm on a dummy, and not so much during a fight. And I have 2 big reasons for that.

1) I don't want to tunnel vision onto Ovale; and
2) I think it's important to plan ahead, on your own, to plan for movement

The script teaches me great concepts about how/when to use DoC, TF, Rip, FB, etc. Just from messing with it 1 night, my DPS went up about 3k consistently on a dummy. (a couple 30-minute sustained fights). My DPS has also gone up in the raid, as I get better at holding onto PS proc, or pooling energy for certain times, etc.

But also in the raid, I may have to make a split second decision of over-writing a 5 CP TF Rip on elegon with a 3 CP DoC rip at 8sec. left (for example) before we goto pillars. But, I was planning on that for a few seconds in advance.
No script can tell you when you'll have to move, and how long you'll be away from the boss, and whether refreshing a DoT, or just build/save CP for your return is worth more.

I think having Ovale as a training tool is great, but I think if somebody is a 'master' of feral, they will be using their own judgement and not relying on the script.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Sorcerer » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:45 pm

What you are trying to say is completly different from what I said.

Having the SR script play differently on certain fights is an easy thing to do, and huge quality of life for those still learning and trying to master. This can be done without interrupting main portion of the script and does not require insane work similar to what was put into feral by night.

I don't ask for hand holding, neither I have to prove anything but I can understand where players might have issues. The playerbase is huge, what you described with going by your own judgement is barely a learning a class, its already being quite into mastered.

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Re: Leafkiller's MoP Feral/Guardian Ovale Script

Postby Instaqueues » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:18 pm

I guess I should have elaborated more :D If you're trying to code for 2 different types of players, new to feral, and those trying to master it, would it be easy enough to have 2 script downloads? One for beginners, one for advanced? Or a switch in the Ovale script to choose between the 2?

For a new feral, it might be beneficial to use Ovale during a raid, to get a feel of bleeds during movement, but for someone learning advanced techniques, it could be coded differently (more of a training dummy scenario) that shows the optimal way a rotation should work in action.

From a developer view, it is really hard to build a script for those who are still mastering the class and those who are already far into it. I guess there is never an easy solution how to make it appealing for top and mediocre players.


I can only assume the script would be different writing with beginners vs. advanced or else there wouldn't be a problem at all. If your comment is aimed at multi-target vs. single-target, then ignore all of my comments :) But I interpreted it as advanced vs. beginner scripts.

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