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Incarnation and SotF Questions

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Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby CalliatTN » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:20 am

Hey guys, i apologize if this has already been discussed, but for some reason the search function is not my friend : / Onwards to the questions:

I personally prefer using the SotF-rotation, but two other ferals from my guild are having huge success with Incarnation, and i just can't make it work. I like SotF because it gives a very steady dmg, as in on each try on the same boss i will do roughly the same dps, whilst the incanators can vary massively (20k+).
I've been playing my feral since the end of wrath, and in cata i had my rotation nearly perfect everytime, but i feel DoC is turning me into a slacker, since it's so much easier keeping up bleeds, and it's an actual gain to drop a bleed now and then for a few secs. This is part of why i'm no good with Incarnation now; i feel like i don't get to press any buttons outside of berserk, because rip will end up falling off or aligning too close to SR.

1. Should you be really picky outside of incarnation uptime, and closely watch your dot's, having as high uptime as possible and next to none FB's, and is it worth it overcapping CP's to prevent downtime on bleeds and energycapping?

So my dmg is obviously lower throughout the fight, due to a lot less finishers and Shreds, but even during the burst moments of zerk + incarnation, i can't do very much.

2. What is the best way to utilize Incarnation, especially during berserk? Should i only spam ravage and say fuck everything else until berserk runs out? Should i ignore everything but DoC procs? Should i continue my rotation as usual? The latter is what i've been doing, but it really doesn't feel worthwhile since DoC will make me energycap at the beginning of berserk, and i feel like i only get half the ravages off i could have.

3. With SotF, is it also here better to ignore DoC procs during berserk, if you risk energycapping?

I personally really dislike DoC and Incarnation, because they slow down my rotation. DoC requires the HT cast which takes a 1½ sec GCD (GRRRRR!!!) and Incarnation takes a GCD to cast (Grrrr!!) and empties my energypool faster than i like. Do you think it could be worthwhile for me to simply spec into SotF and Nature's Vigil, for a rotation i once again would enjoy, whithout scraping the bottoms on the DPS-meter?

xoxo ~ Calliat ~

EDIT:
My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... iat/simple
My guildy's armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... llr/simple

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Dysheki » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:51 pm

General consensus is DoC+SotF is the highest possible dps for most fights. Not sure what you may be doing wrong, but I don't believe any Incarnation build should beat SotF+DoC (depending mostly on fight length/modifiers and obviously gear). If you are seeing ravage come up in a feral's attack list it may just be the PvP set bonus and not the actual use of Incarnation (just throwing that out there).

I honestly don't know the best possible rotation for an Incarnation build. I would imagine you wouldn't want to completely ignore bleeds though.

And yes, having HT stay on the 1.5 second GCD sucks balls.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:34 pm

You really shouldn't be using Incarnation for much of anything outside of PVP and 5 mans heroics (not challenge). It is the worst of our level 4 talent choices. About your questions regarding allowing bleeds to drop. What makes it ok to let bleeds drop in favor of a FB is SotF. The extra energy refuded allows for the smoother rotation and also the extra energy to justify delaying Rip. When you say your guild mates are having success with Incarnation can you perhaps link some logs, or give some more context? In general a lot of Ferals end up picking Incarnation because at the start of a fight with the crit buff, Pot, Berserk, and sometimes Lust you will jump out ahead on the meters. It looks really cool at the start. The problem is after those first 15 seconds when Berserk drops you only get maybe 3-4 more Ravages if you ignore everything else. After that you start to drop like a rock. With DoC+SotF you don't really start that high, but you stay consistant. So not very flashy but it gets the job done better. Unless the fight is ending in less then 60-80 seconds Incarnation really isn't worth it.

There are only 2 fights I can really think of that Incarnation would have any real advantage over SotF and only under very specific situations. The fights are Guardians (Heroic only) and Windlord (Heroic only).

In the case of the Guardians you will need to time your Incarnation to happen on the first set of tiles (not to soon), and the last set of tiles. You also have to hope the fight lasts long enough for 2 full bursts, or short enough for 1 with your Pot. It's very tricky and you kinda have to meter whore to make it work. No running to help with tiles, pray you don't get chained to a healer. Stuff like that.

With Windlord you would need your raid to choose to DPS adds down to have spread out Recklessness phases so you can get 2 Incarnations in on the 1st and 3rd.

To answer your questions directly:
1. As you do not have SotF you should not be allowing bleeds to fall off if you can help it. The reality though is that SotF or way to many lucky OOC procs are what keeps our Rip uptime pushing 86%. If you pick Incarnation even outside of it Rip is going to drop more often. Keeping it up as much as possible even during Berserk/Incarntion is importent cause as soon as you leave Berserk you are going to be energy starved and the combo points stop flowing. In short don't take it.

2.
I personally really dislike DoC and Incarnation, because they slow down my rotation. DoC requires the HT cast which takes a 1½ sec GCD (GRRRRR!!!) and Incarnation takes a GCD to cast (Grrrr!!)

Listen to your instincts. Matching DoC and Incarnation together is likely the worst talent combo we have. If you must choose Incarnation, Natures Vigil is a better option for adding more damage to the burst. The healing component for Feral is really really poor, so only use it for during Incarnation. For Incarnation to work at all it should be paired with Berserk. However just like you said Incarnation takes up a GCD for whatever stupid reason. It's best to use Incarnation and drain your energy with 1-2 Ravages to start then hit Berserk/TF during the GCD and then go to town. You should try and keep your rotation going, though Rake can be allowed to drop for a little if Berserk is about to end. Keep Rip going though cause you want the Nature's Vigil, Pot, and TF damage to be stacked up with it.

3. Last I recall when Aggixx tested this it came up to be a minor loss to ignore DoC procs during Berserk even though we end up lost 3 seconds of Berserk (assume 2 HT's during the duration) the boosted FB, Rip and Rake will be worth it. With DoC you are going to energy cap no matter what. It's a minor thing, you just don't want to make a habit of doing it outside of the start of Berserk.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby CalliatTN » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:02 pm

Just to clear things up; i always use SotF and DoC, if i have incarnation up it's only because we did Windlord.

Logs:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/b6qa5n9h ... 293&e=1893 naxo is with incarnation and DoC i'm with Sotf and DoC.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/b6qa5n9h ... 374&e=3836
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/b6qa5n9h ... 029&e=8449
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/nj8pg2g0 ... =496&e=886
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/nj8pg2g0 ... 157&e=1512

In general, on HoF bosses he's above me on terrace bosses i'm above him.
we're of equal itl, but he has the mastery trinket and gao re

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Dysheki » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:19 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:There are only 2 fights I can really think of that Incarnation would have any real advantage over SotF and only under very specific situations. The fights are Guardians (Heroic only) and Windlord (Heroic only).


I would also throw in the possibility of any difficulty of Amber Shaper (though, personally, I don't use Inc/NV for that fight). Depends on how bad your raid needs the burst and the +% modifiers always tend to help the burst talents.

It's been tossed about to use Inc/NV for Sha as well, but I think most agree it's just too RNG on when you get the fearless buff to be consistently good.
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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:30 pm

10m it could work a little, but it's not really consistant enough. 25 man it's to random to mean anything.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:00 pm

I had this nice thing all typed up and the page ate it. >.<

After looking at your logs and armory pages (you and Naxo) I have a better idea why he seems to have better success with Incarnation. What it boils down to is that even though your Ilvl's are very close he actually really out gears you by a good measure.

I have to head home now, but I will update it with details when I get there.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:07 am

Ok now that the raid is over I can expand on some things.
As I mentioned before even though your ilvls are very close he really out gears you... Till tonight when you cleaned up with gear it seems. Glad I looked again before I wrote the whole thing out I had earlier today.
1. You have chosen or had the poor luck to collect a lot of Haste gear. Your Cloak, Boots, and Tier pants all have sub optimal itemization that have better versions available to you. The Garalon Cloak (even 496), Protectors/Guardians Pants (our off set), Amber Shapers Boots are what you should be shooting for. As a result you have around 3000 Haste. Now that you have replaced your Polearm its likely a little less. However it's still really high. Naxo on the other hand has only 359 Haste. The other half is he has about 3000 more Mastery then you do. DoC's core is buffing our bleeds so we really need to get as much Mastery as possible. I know about 1k comes from his trinket that you don't have, however that is still a 2k difference.

2. You arn't capping Hit/Exp. Do this. When you have all your new gear situated use Wowreforge to clean up your reforges. Earlier today I was able to eek about 600 more master and drop your Haste a little. Trust me it will help.

3. Looking at the logs he has been out playing you. I see a few instances where he pre pots and pots and you only pre pot. He is very consistant with using his cooldowns on cooldown. He tends to have used TF 1-2 more times a fight then you. Also you have been using Windsong on your weapon. I know you have put Dancing Steel on the new one, but still that was a massive nerf you gave yourself prior. You also need to pick up your SR uptime. It should be in the 96-100% range.

Work on these and you should see some big improvements in the next few weeks. Stick with DoC and SotF and you will start to out perform Naxo if he keeps using Incarnation.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby CalliatTN » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:09 am

Thanks for the advice, however i would like to ask a littlw follow up question, as well as clarify something.

1. Yes, i have been super unlucky with gear. Apart from getting my MSV N weapon, all my better gear options either haven't dropped at all, or have gone to someone else, or i got sick of grinding the rep >_>. I couldn't afford Dancing Steel on my old weapon, but our GB supported it on the new one :D. With DoC are the darkmoon trinket still a BiS trinket? Or is it now terror in the mist/elegon-won't-drop-this-bastard?

2. I'm keeping my hit/exp. caps withing 0.2 on the caps (Usually over). Is it really worth overcapping it, if i'm sitting at say 7.43? I'll check out a reforge site, usually i didn't bother because it was very straight forward, but considering my bad luck with the items i get, it's probably worthwhile now.

3. I never really thought the 2nd pot would make such a difference, the thing is, i have it macroed too closely to my aoe-spammings, so i tend to click it on accident, wasting the pot : /. I'll get that moved somewhere less harmful. On the SR note, these logs aren't really that accurate, considering the fights themselves; on Vizier, i have a lot of downtime on the boss in the second phase, where i am also unable to keep dots up, and therefore i don't bother keeping SR up, giving me bad statistics, same on bladelord, as i use HotW for that fight, giving me much statisticly downtime again. On Garalon, yeah that's a fuckup on my side, but on protectors you can see what my SR uptime usually is at :D

So to wrap it up, re-reforge, put my pot to safety and use TF more aggressively. Roger that.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:45 am

The BIS is Heroic Bottle (Elegon-won't-drop-this-bastard), and Heroic Terror. Darkmoon card is a close 3rd.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby CalliatTN » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:25 am

How about the hit/exp capping? is it worth it?

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Alpheus » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:34 am

CalliatTN wrote:How about the hit/exp capping? is it worth it?


Definitely, because of the high amount of interaction between our bleeds & buffs (not to mention procs, potions, etc.) it is critical that you have absolute control on when your abilities will hit and with what intensity. Sims suggest exp/hit slightly inferior to other secondaries (within margin of error) but unless you're a farseeing virtuoso and able to react to misses within a couple ms of it occuring, you should really try to cap them nonetheless.
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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby aggixx » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:21 am

Technically SimC completely accounts for reaction time and latency, but there's still plenty of reasons why it's silly not to hit/exp cap.
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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Kihrawr » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:02 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:You really shouldn't be using Incarnation for much of anything outside of PVP and 5 mans heroics (not challenge).


Incarnation is actually really good in Challenge Modes, assuming we're talking about sub-Gold times. It all depends on the pattern of the challenge mode and whether or not your CDs end up being used on bosses or trash. Assuming bosses end up being the best place to use cooldowns (Scholomance comes to mind for example, since you have two bosses that need single target burst), then Incarnation is a very clear winner over Soul of the Forest. Unlike in a raid boss fight, you get the benefit of potion use with every Incarnation, and you're also going to couple it with Berserk and NV. On top of that, you're fighting unique mobs that will be above 80% health (so you will always get the crit bonus from Ravage).

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:56 pm

I admit that my experience with challenge modes are lacking (I haven't had time to do any yet). I was taking the advise of Kaiadam who had some of the first Gold finishes as a Feral (also some of the best times). His experience at the time anyway said HotW was much better due to its AOE damage, and Tranq utility. I am inclined to agree with him.

You specifiy a lot of "ifs" that depend on Incarnation being effective. If doing sub gold times. If you run a specific instance. If you use cooldowns on bosses only. Incarnation is only effective for the 15 seconds of Berserk. Trying to use Incarnation for AOE as you suggest will not be nearly be as effective as either Rake on every target or using Thrash/Swipe. In those situations having the extra energy produced from SotF for your SR and FB will be useful every pull. Incarnation isn't something that isn't always easy to time it coming off cooldown at the right time. As for using it on bosses, I have no experience on how long those fights last. I do know if the fights have down time or last longer then 1 minute Incarntion is way less effective then SotF.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Fort » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:58 pm

i was bored one day so i tried out incarnation and soul of the forest on wind lord and i pulled 480k dps till 10%, a rank 1 parse untill a dps stepped into a wind bomb. next pull i messed up and did 410k... incarnation has its moments.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:41 pm

Quoted from my first post:
There are only 2 fights I can really think of that Incarnation would have any real advantage over SotF and only under very specific situations. The fights are Guardians (Heroic only) and Windlord (Heroic only).

I also assume you mean HotW. If you are able to have a short enough window for the big damage debuff the two combined will work very well together. However if you do the fight like my team does, we do 0 AOE until windlord hits 80%. No place for me to use either spell to any great effect.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Kihrawr » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:23 am

Tinderhoof wrote:You specifiy a lot of "ifs" that depend on Incarnation being effective. If doing sub gold times. If you run a specific instance. If you use cooldowns on bosses only. Incarnation is only effective for the 15 seconds of Berserk. Trying to use Incarnation for AOE as you suggest will not be nearly be as effective as either Rake on every target or using Thrash/Swipe.


I did not suggest that Incarnation be used for AOE. I would only use Incarnation in Challenge Modes if I'm using my other cooldowns (like Berserk) on bosses that don't live very long or that require a critical burst period. Otherwise I'd go with Soul of the Forest. My talent selection so far has varied from dungeon to dungeon. All I'm saying is that there are a number of places where it shines. Scholo for 1st boss and Lillian, Gate for bursting the Weak Spot, etc.

Basically I'm saying Challenge Modes are complicated, fun and interesting, and you have to approach each one with your group's composition and needs in mind. If single target burst DPS is required, Incarnation works well.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:06 am

Kihrawr wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:All I'm saying is that there are a number of places where it shines. Scholo for 1st boss and Lillian, Gate for bursting the Weak Spot, etc.

Basically I'm saying Challenge Modes are complicated, fun and interesting, and you have to approach each one with your group's composition and needs in mind. If single target burst DPS is required, Incarnation works well.

Makes plenty of sense to me. I think this line:
On top of that, you're fighting unique mobs that will be above 80% health (so you will always get the crit bonus from Ravage).

is what confused me. If a boss is going down that fast 80% will come and go in 3-4 GCD's. That made me think you were talking about more then 1 target above 80%. If you have time to swap talents in challenge modes it sounds like it would work in places. Can you swap talents?

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby aggixx » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:10 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Can you swap talents?

You can but it's a lot easier to run a second spec with your talent setups and then swap in between them. That said, pretty sure Kihrawr wasn't talking about swapping talents.
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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Kihrawr » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:06 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
Kihrawr wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:All I'm saying is that there are a number of places where it shines. Scholo for 1st boss and Lillian, Gate for bursting the Weak Spot, etc.

Basically I'm saying Challenge Modes are complicated, fun and interesting, and you have to approach each one with your group's composition and needs in mind. If single target burst DPS is required, Incarnation works well.

Makes plenty of sense to me. I think this line:
On top of that, you're fighting unique mobs that will be above 80% health (so you will always get the crit bonus from Ravage).

is what confused me. If a boss is going down that fast 80% will come and go in 3-4 GCD's. That made me think you were talking about more then 1 target above 80%. If you have time to swap talents in challenge modes it sounds like it would work in places. Can you swap talents?


What I meant is that every 3 mins you use Incarnation, you're going to be on a different target, e.g., another boss, so each time you use it, you at least get a few hits in above 80%. For example in Scholomance (our group got a 14:48 time on that one), you can use it on the Lich to get him dead before the ice wall gets to you, and then you can use it again on Lillian later on. Lillian has to be burst down in about 30-35 seconds in order to beat the soul spawn, and our group was just barely able to make that DPS check. That is probably the most prominent example of where Incarnation was really useful.

You can actually swap talents mid-instance, but you can run into issues with the talents being on cooldown and preventing the swap. Having a second spec is more problematic, since you have to find the time to be able to swap specs, and some instances don't give you that kind of window. Soul of the Forest -> Incarnation is definitely an easy change to make though, as is Dream of Cenarius -> HoW or NV, since SoF and DoC don't have a CD.

In retrospect, I probably should have started with Soul of the Forest in Scholomance, since I think we'd have gotten the lich down anyway, and SoF comes out ahead once you factor in the time on the phylactery. Then I could have switched to Incarnation right before Lillian. Taking advantage of mid-instance talent switching is something I need to work on more.

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby CalliatTN » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:30 am

Hey guys, i'd like to post some feedback to my own question earlier, that was: "Is it possible to use SotF + NV and still be competitive?".
As you might recall i really don't like Incarnation (because of the GCD and the energystarvation) and DoC (Because of the clunkyness of the mechanic). I had a lot of trouble enjoying my feral as i used to in cata, so i ended up going for it to see where it would put me. And i'm glad to report back, that it is very possible to be competitive with this talent combination! worst case scenario it's just as bad as if you were to get a bad start/mess up with DoC/Incarnation, best case scenario i can outperform at least myself on both. On Lei Shi and Vizier i've been able to pull great numbers, even taking rank 23 on Vizier HC yesterday. But the most important part: it's fun to play feral again. The spec is back to the swift attacks and highspeed reactions.

So to conclude: Yes you can be competitive with SotF+NV. Whilst you theoretically could gain more numbers with DoC/SotF or incarnation, this spec costs you very little dmg loss for a GREAT increase to fun-ness :D !

Unfortunately NV is getting nurfed in 5.2 because it benefits boomers too much, but hopefully that won't harm this playstyle too much. ;_;

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Re: Incarnation and SotF Questions

Postby Elamari » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:05 pm

CalliatTN wrote:Unfortunately NV is getting nurfed in 5.2 because it benefits boomers too much, but hopefully that won't harm this playstyle too much. ;_;


It's great that you are having fun playing Feral again :D

However, I don't think that they changes to NV will be a nerf per say. I think with perfect usage, they will balance out. I can't remember if these stack multiplicative or additive. Have to get one of the theory crafters to sim it. I'm inclined to think that your bust might take a hit but your average dps will increase. That said I'm just thinking out aloud, have no numbers to anything to back this up.
Definitely interesting, we will have to wait and see.

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