T15 Set bonuses

[Tinderhoof Profile]

This is still datamined so it may change:
•Item - Druid T15 Feral 2P Bonus (New) Predatory Swiftness grants you an additional combo point on your current combo target when consumed.
•Item - Druid T15 Feral 4P Bonus (New) After using Tiger's Fury, you gain 40% increased critical strike chance on the next 3 uses of Mangle, Shred, or Ferocious Bite.

Not sure how I feel about the 2p yet. Seems like they want to make our rotation even more complicated. I will think more on it after raid tonight. Please discuss.

[aggixx Profile]

2 piece is a vast overcomplication of the rotation, probably will make DoC even better since it will put the finisher success rate at basically 100%, makes the other two specs harder in a rather asinine way.

4 piece is nice, but rather uninspired. It will synergize very very well with the 2 piece for DoC by allowing you to crank out massive Ferocious Bites on a consistent basis. This will make FB pooling much much more vital and very likely widen the gap between DoC and the other two specs. In addition to that, it introduces a (very soft) crit soft cap as there will be a point where a buffed FB will have 100% chance to crit.

[Elamari Profile Website]

RE: 2pc
I think it will contribute to smoothness in the rotation from the extra CP generation. It is a matter of timing, having to think a bit on about when to use it.

RE: 4pc
I prefer the play style of the "rotation" with high crit levels. So it looks like a little bit of burst every 30sec with TF.

IDK we will have and see how it plays out. But my general feeling is that these bonuses are aiming to help smooth out the rotation.

[aggixx Profile]

Feel sorry for the people that said they didn't want to use DoC because they don't want to heal to DPS, looks like they have no choice now!

[Daidrak Profile]

The 2pc is pretty much forcing the 3 specs to play like doc just less controlled use of the procs. My biggest concern is it might over complicate doc.
I can see a lot of proc cps going to waste depending on primal fury procs while trying to save your pred swift for a rip.
Maybe if the proc'd cp could work like holy power in cata where if you were able to gain the over stack within a very short window you would get it the set bonus would be more appealing

[Tinderhoof Profile]

RE: 2pc
I think it will contribute to smoothness in the rotation from the extra CP generation. It is a matter of timing, having to think a bit on about when to use it.

RE: 4pc
I prefer the play style of the "rotation" with high crit levels. So it looks like a little bit of burst every 30sec with TF.

IDK we will have and see how it plays out. But my general feeling is that these bonuses are aiming to help smooth out the rotation.

I think that is the intent. However in execution I don't think it's going to work out for most Ferals that way. Right now TF can often get wasted because you have to use a PS proc and you lose 1.5 seconds from the HT. It will be even worse here as it will add extra delays and clunks with people trying to figure out when to use it.

There is no way we are going to hit 60% crit even with trinket procs in T15 so I doubt that the 4p will ever introduce a soft cap.

[Elamari Profile Website]

Will ovale require an update to include this in its script? If so, where you think it will go at this time? (any napkin math?)

[Tinderhoof Profile]

I will have to see how it ends up playing out on the PTR. The key will be to end up using PS sooner so you don't waste the combo point after a crit, but still get DoC off for your next finisher.

[aggixx Profile]

My biggest concern is it might over complicate doc.

It won't really make DoC any harder at all, instead of using your PS's at 4+ CP you'll just use them at 3+ now.

[Daidrak Profile]

It won't really make DoC any harder at all, instead of using your PS's at 4+ CP you'll just use them at 3+ now.

Yeah you are right. I think I was just over thinking it and comparing it to playing now.

[kumineko Profile]

Will the gap between NV spec and DoC spec really be that wide with this set bonus as you guys say? Because i dont really understand how it does that. If you could explain I would appreciate it.

[Dysheki Profile]

Will the gap between NV spec and DoC spec really be that wide with this set bonus as you guys say? Because i dont really understand how it does that. If you could explain I would appreciate it.

It really shouldn't be that much different; you can still use PS procs without DoC . . .

It will be slightly better because you will have a greater chance of using your DoC procs on finishers instead of just a rake and a shred, but I still don't personally think it will be vastly different.

/shrug

[aggixx Profile]

The 4-piece directly increases the damage of Ferocious Bite and the 2-piece increases both the count and the DoC success rate of Ferocious Bites. Since Ferocious Bites as DoC hit significantly harder than they do for the other two talents the bonuses will therefore be inherently stronger for DoC.

And I didn't say that the gap between DoC and the other specs would be massive, I merely side it would be wider than it already is; by how much is still to be determined.

[raffy Profile]

For the same gear set that I believe simc was using (pre-5.2, pre-upgrade) [Although, we should probably establish a common gear set to test against.], if I swap the bonuses from T14 to T15, I see a +5K DPS increase (about +4% overall).

Code: Select all

With T14:
Name                                        Count       Hit      Crit   Crit%   Overall      DPS
Rip`5#                                     179962     46548     96798  42.14% [ 22.14%]    30317
Melee                                      473275     16464     37669  39.47% [ 21.35%]    29238
Rake#                                      133658     53739    112600  41.97% [ 19.05%]    26081
Shred                                      112723     62434    130322  42.71% [ 18.72%]    25636
FB`5                                        16748    132255    279728  66.54% [  7.01%]     9598
Rake                                        37200     51544    108544  42.47% [  5.12%]     7010
Thrash/Cat#                                 73863     24181     50588  42.02% [  4.73%]     6482
Thrash/Cat                                  14927     33593     70479  42.53% [  1.34%]     1830
Stormlash                                   69626      3096      6657  18.73% [  0.48%]      652
FB`4                                          164     79718    173600  68.90% [  0.04%]       59
FB`3                                          128     59415    120769  63.28% [  0.02%]       31
FB`2                                           43     40493     74143  55.81% [  0.00%]        6
FB`1                                           24     19286     42107  62.50% [  0.00%]        2
Rip`5                                       14254         0         0   0.00% [  0.00%]        0

With T15:
Name                                        Count       Hit      Crit   Crit%   Overall      DPS
Rip`5#                                     178697     48181    100048  42.17% [ 22.74%]    32681
Melee                                      453575     16456     37678  39.54% [ 20.47%]    29421
Rake#                                      127522     54002    113107  42.45% [ 18.32%]    26330
Shred                                      101411     58594    126483  54.97% [ 17.67%]    25391
FB`5                                        20506    132430    296266  79.79% [  9.80%]    14087
Rake                                        34985     51862    108800  42.68% [  4.84%]     6956
Thrash/Cat#                                 68446     24226     50660  42.29% [  4.40%]     6326
Thrash/Cat                                  13826     33503     70979  42.85% [  1.24%]     1789
Stormlash                                   69259      3170      6711  18.50% [  0.48%]      692
FB`3                                           97     63860    128642  74.23% [  0.02%]       28
FB`4                                           69     79706    163501  75.36% [  0.02%]       26
FB`2                                           40     35545     71034  62.50% [  0.00%]        6
FB`1                                           27     17607     40949  62.96% [  0.00%]        2
Rip`5                                       18055         0         0   0.00% [  0.00%]        0

Edit: oops, I sim'd it as Tauren; oops#2, this was using Heroism near the start.

I redid the simulation with +2/2 upgrades on everything: ilvl 517.47 and moved heroism to the end, still comes out to be about 4% more than T14 bonuses in the exact same gear.

Next I'll try isolating the bonuses and testing the individually.

[aggixx Profile]

And that's with an unmodified action list?

[raffy Profile]

And that's with an unmodified action list?

Yeah, I'll let you guys do that part

[Etapicx Profile]

What i wonder is that if soft caping crit will be prio not just becuase of FB but securing Primal Fury procs.
I think it really walking against the non manditory specs because DoC will be easier to execute but also because we'll have way more finnishers SofT will be stronger and DoC will be stronger aswell.

[aggixx Profile]

You won't be able to get anywhere near enough crit to softcap your Shreds/Mangles (barring crit procs), the only reason you can do it with FB is it has a +25% chance to crit on bleeding targets.

Implemented the bonuses into SimC, and assuming I did it correctly the 2-piece is a 3.65% DPS gain, and the 4-piece is a 3.56% DPS gain. The only (relevant) changes I made to the action list was a reduction of the HT combo point threshold down to 3. Presumably there are more optimizations to be made, probably something regarding specific use of the 4p charges.

Here's a link to the report, if anyone's interested on specifics.

[Etapicx Profile]

You won't be able to get anywhere near enough crit to softcap your Shreds/Mangles (barring crit procs), the only reason you can do it with FB is it has a +25% chance to crit on bleeding targets.

Yeah stupid me reed 60% instead of 40%.

[raffy Profile]

Implemented the bonuses into SimC, and assuming I did it correctly the 2-piece is a 3.65% DPS gain, and the 4-piece is a 3.56% DPS gain. The only (relevant) changes I made to the action list was a reduction of the HT combo point threshold down to 3. Presumably there are more optimizations to be made, probably something regarding specific use of the 4p charges.

I computed my DPS gain relative to the T14, so our numbers aren't directly comparable. However, your T15 2p and 4p distributions are similar to what I can produce, so it looks like we have similar implementation.

If I put the 2p and 4p together, I see about ~7% DPS increase (no-bonus vs 2+4p) which is similar to your 7.3% (via 3.56% * 3.65%).

If I only do 2p relative to no-bonus, I see 3.1% DPS increase.
If I only do 4p relative to no-bonus, I see 3.6% DPS increase.

It seems like the crit bonus should apply to Ravage too, but I guess no one PvE's with Incarnation.

[Tinderhoof Profile]

With the Ravage bonus of 40% above 80% mob health would make for some problems at the start of a fight. As that is when you will be using it anyway you wouldn't get a lot of extra value really.

[Tinderhoof Profile]

but I guess no one PvE's with Incarnation

The problem here though is a lot of people do. I end up correcting at least 1 Feral a week on the blizzard forums that recomends using Incarnation. Last I looked it was the most popular talent for Feral. It should be that no PVE Feral is taking Incarnation unelss they are trying to log on a fight or two.

[Dysheki Profile]

Inc+NV are the popular PvP talents so that likely skews it a lot if you're looking at overall numbers.

[Fort Profile]

Will the 4pc PVP malevolent be competative with t15 like it is currently? or is t15 a lot better than t14 was?

[raffy Profile]

With the Ravage bonus of 40% above 80% mob health would make for some problems at the start of a fight. As that is when you will be using it anyway you wouldn't get a lot of extra value really.

(I'm at work so unable to test) If you do Incarnation in simc, how high is the average Ravage crit %?

Even with FB getting 25% crit from Bleed presence and 40% T15, the simc and Catus are only showing typical FB crit near 80% (although I'm sure that can be improved with a better action list). Nevertheless, I'll try to do a sim when I get home with Incarnation + T15 w/Ravage benefit just to see how high the Ravage crit rate actually gets.

Will the 4pc PVP malevolent be competative with t15 like it is currently? or is t15 a lot better than t14 was?

T15 seems like a big upgrade.
If the new 2p PvP bonus stays, I'd be interested in considering 2p T15 + 2p PvP at the start of 5.2 (depending on how the upgrades work, if it all) because the SR extend is a nice QoL upgrade and 2pT14 is complete trash.