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DoC + HT (NS) in action

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DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby Dolenraug » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:46 pm

Hello fellow kittys and bears, let me first of all thank you all who made beeing a kitty really fun! I have been following Fluid Druid for a long time and it has been a tremendous help, but this time I'm stuck. I have had HotW for as long it has been there and it can't go wrong, but now i have been curious to learn to fight with DoC + HT and NS. So i have read, read and done some more reading about it, so i tried but i don't really get it. I know what it's suppose to do, but first of all, how often do I push HT and when? And when i have pushed HT, an icon appears and it's the DoC proccs or something, it has 30 sec and counting downwards on it, but as soon as i hit my target twice more time, the icon disapears. Does that mean that this buff the bleeds thing are off? In that case I'm screwd, cuz it doesn't matter how I do it, it allways disapears after two hit, or i can just stop hitting and then it just counts down, but that should not be the case. So, my question to you with the knowledge: please, if you have the patience to do it once more, describe the fight with DoC, HT and NS for me, as I would be a three years old kid. I really want to learn it to the fullest. Oh and it's my first post here, so be gentle please.

Best Regards
//Dolenraug

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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby aggixx » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:48 am

Dream of Cenarius as a concept can seem very complex or intimidating, the best thing you can do to get over that (at least imo) is boil it down into simple rules. First, how the talent actually works:

Wrath, Starfire, Starsurge, and melee abilities increase healing done by your next healing spell by 30%. Tranquility is not affected.

Nourish, Healing Touch, and Regrowth increase the damage done by your next 2 Moonfire or Sunfire casts by 50% or by your next 2 melee abilities by 25%.

Each of these bonuses lasts 30 sec.


The first part, which increases your healing done when you attack, is a nice perk of the talent and can provide you with some survivability, but it's not of primary concern. The 30 second duration isn't terribly important because you'll never go 30 seconds without using 2 attacks.

The bold part is the part that really matters. First, notice that it says "next 2 melee abilities", as in ANY melee ability (except for autoattacks) can be used with the buff. Contrary to that, it only procs off a specific list of healing spells: Nourish, Healing Touch, and Regrowth. Of course as of Mists of Pandaria, Feral now only has Healing Touch, so that will be the only way you can proc the damage buff. There's three ways you can use Healing Touch:

  • Hardcasting: The most obvious way of course is to just cancel your Cat Form and cast a Healing Touch. This is something that used to actually be viable back on MoP Beta when the talent was hilariously overtuned, but nowadays this is something you should seldom do. There's 2 times you would want to hardcast a healing touch: Right before you pull an encounter (so that your first 2 attacks get a free damage buff) and possibly anytime you can't be on your target for a few seconds and you don't need to move for a mechanic (this is pretty rare).
  • Using Nature's Swiftness: This is a very important talent for Dream of Cenarius right now, I'll talk more about usage in a sec.
  • Using Predatory Swiftness: Anytime you execute a finisher you have a 20% chance per combo point spent (a 5 point finisher is a guaranteed proc, a 3 point finisher would be a 60% chance of a proc) to gain Predatory Swiftness. Predatory Swiftness is a 8 second buff that makes your next Healing Touch free, instant, and castable in all forms. This is the primary way you will buff your attacks, and because of the short nature of it's duration it introduces DoC's timing intensive side.

As stated before, since the damage buff is a percent damage increase, you want to use those charges on whichever abilities do the most damage in a single use, which, naturally, will be your bleeds. There are three cases you want to use Predatory Swiftness to achieve this:

  • Anytime you have 4 or 5 combo points: If you have a PS active when you reach 4+ combo points you should cast a Healing Touch immediately. Since you have 2 charges of the buff, you can use 1 charge on a CP generator to get to 5 combo points and 1 charge on your finishing move. If you use your PS at 5 CP you can use your finisher and then you'll still have a charge for your first CP generator.

    Since your goal is to use the buff on your bleeds, that 1 charge you can use on a CP generator should generally be a Rake. The only time you don't want to use Rake is if you have one already on the target that you know is ticking for more damage.
  • Anytime your Predatory Swiftness is about to expire: If you get to the point where using another ability would cause your PS to fall off, you should consume the PS before doing anything else. Even if you don't have the right amount of CP to get it onto a finisher, you're still getting a damage buff to 2 of your abilities so it's important that you don't waste PS procs. Generally you should take advantage of 1 of the charges to refresh your Rake just like in the previous rule.
  • Anytime you're about to use a finisher: Of course if you're casting a 5 pt finisher you should've already used your PS from rule 1, but if you're casting a 1, 2, or 3 point Savage Roar then you want to use any PS proc you have up before you do so if you have the time, as it may proc a new one that could overwrite your old one. This isn't super important since it's not guaranteed that the Savage Roar will proc a new PS, but if you have the moment to refresh it without pushing back the rest of your rotation, you might as well because it's just free damage at that point. Same as before, aim to use a charge on refreshing Rake if it can use it.

Nature's Swiftness usage is pretty simple, there's only two times you want to use NS (of course followed immediately by a Healing Touch):
  • When you're about to put up a Rip and don't have a DoC charge: This is the main one, you want to make sure you use NS when you get to 5 CP in your opener for your first rip since that's the main time you won't have any DoC charges, and then after that just use NS to fill in anytime you can.
  • When you're in Blood in the Water range: Once you're in Blood in the Water range (sub 25% target health) you should use your NS on Ferocious Bites since it's your hardest hitting ability at that point (rake hits very hard too but you should be using 1 of the 2 charges on that, as always). This is assuming of course that you're not going to be casting Rip for the rest of the fight, if you're just on a add that will die or similar, you're better off saving your NS and waiting until you can use it on a Rip.

Hopefully this is explained well enough for you ;) Good luck and feel free to ask any questions if you have any.
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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby Dolenraug » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:44 am

Oh my, first up, a huge thank you for explaining! Now it's just to digg in and learn, but my first glans at the text was frightning, but it will be better at time I hope. Once again, thank you very much for this!

Best Regards!

//Dolenraug

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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby Dolenraug » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:36 am

Gaah! I'm going crazy with this, I'm doing atleast 7k less damage with DoC against HotW, meassuring with Recount on a raid dummy. So I'm doing the DoC thingy completly wrong, or so it seems. But, on it again!

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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby Alpheus » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:06 am

Double-check your reforges and gemming, make sure you're using Berserk + TF macro'd together. If all else fails, try to posting your usual "rotation" or post a link to one of your raid logs (couldn't find any, you most likely don't have them or they're private).
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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby brettfirst » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:17 pm

I experienced a similar thing at first, but I recommend you try your "dps samples" over periods of something like 8 minutes, which could be the length of a hypothetical raid boss, and try them several times instead of just once (and for best results flask, pot, eat, etc). Try hitting your berserk+TF at the same time..and when they're up, so after like 8 minutes with HotW and another test with DoC, your results won't be skewed because for one of them you just hit berserk 10 seconds before you stopped dps on the dummy.

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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby brettfirst » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:32 pm

Agixx I actually have a question about rake...

You were saying don't refresh rake with DoC if there's already a rake doing higher damage at the moment....how do you determine that exactly? As in...why is one rake doing more damage than the other? (Apparently I don't know much about the details of rake so excuse me on that..)

And also somewhat related...is this the reason Ovale sometimes suggests hitting rake even if you've got like 10 seconds on it? (even if not using DoC)

Thx very much

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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby aggixx » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:48 pm

The only way to determine that is either paying very keen attention to what procs you have when you apply your rakes, or by using an addon to do the same for you. Yes, that's the reason Ovale clips rakes a bunch. If you don't have the means to track your rakes like that then you don't have to do it, it's only a small DPS gain.
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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby brettfirst » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:54 am

Oh ok, thx for the response. I'll take a look at that.

Just out of curiosity, what makes a certain rake...have better procs, over the other? Like...the initial proc affects all later procs or some deal like that?

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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby aggixx » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:19 am

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. The damage of the rake is only based on your character's stats when you applied the rake, reapplying it while it's active will recalculate the damage based on your current stats.

The reason why it's good to overwrite a rake if you have a stronger one is for a couple reasons:
  • DoC charges are a finite resource, if you waited until Rake was less than 3 seconds left all the time you would never be able to guarantee you had charges to refresh it. By refreshing it early with your DoC procs you're able to get a much higher uptime on the 25% damage buff at the cost of using the ability more often.
  • If the damage you gain with a new rake compared to the one already on the target over the 15 seconds that that rake would be up is greater than the difference in damage between a rake and a shred, it's beneficial to cast Rake. For example, imagine your Shred hits for 40k damage and your target is already affected by a Rake with no procs that is doing 150k damage over 15 seconds. That would mean that the initial hit of a procless Rake would be 25k damage, so if you have enough procs for your Rake to do more than a total of 165k damage, it is more damage to use Rake than Shred.
  • In addition to the above, Rake is also cheaper than Shred which means it generates more combo points per energy spent, so a single rake doesn't even have to gain you more damage than a single shred for it to be the right choice.
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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby Jaymzhendo » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:07 pm

To add to what Aggixx just said (and I hope I'm along the lines of your question), Procs that increase Rake damage can be anything from DoC to Trinkets to Temporary Raid buffs like Warrior Banners. So if for example you put up a Rake with absolutely no procs, and then you get a trinket proc and a warrior in your raid drops a banner, you MIGHT then want to refresh your Rake because of the situation Aggixx described (it will do more damage overall than the Shred you would normally cast).
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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby raffy » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:01 pm

Crit percentage and crit damage modifiers are not snapshot (re: Terror in the Mists or Skull Banner.)

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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby brettfirst » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:55 pm

I totally get it now, thanks very much for yalls responses.

What other add ons out there track rake damage priorities? Obviously Ovale is one. I've heard Drood Focus a lot, does that also inform you when a new rake can do higher damage?

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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:55 pm

Yes Drood focus will give an indication on the icon bars for your abilities.

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Re: DoC + HT (NS) in action

Postby Jaymzhendo » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:01 am

raffy wrote:Crit percentage and crit damage modifiers are not snapshot (re: Terror in the Mists or Skull Banner.)


Yeah, that was a really bad example for me to use and I realized it about 2min after I posted. I simply wanted to single out some kind of raid damage increase and that was the first one that came to mind since I had just finished having a discussion with one of my guildmates (a warrior) about the buffs they bring to a raid...

My greatest of apologies to the OP for any misunderstanding I may have caused with my poor usage of examples.
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