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Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

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Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby Conix » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:20 pm

Hi there guys, I have a quick question regarding the refreshing of dots after having a discussion with a lock from my guild.

I have always been under the impression (since the change back in ?cata?) that refreshing a Rip or Rake sub 3 seconds is the way to go - making the next Rip or Rake have an extended duration regardless of current/previous power modifiers.

I'm wondering if the logic behind this is simply to ensure higher uptimes, or if there is something more to it. And carrying on from there; is it ever bad to do this - for example if a SuperPowered Rip or Rake is about to drop off, does the last tick that gets extended onto the next Rip/Rake, once it is refreshed, have the same power as it did on the SuperPowered one before, or will the extra tick of the new Rip/Rake be decreased in power to the new snapshot?

Sorry about the wording of this question, and if this is a glaringly obvious question, but it just got me thinking and I haven't been able to find anything around the forums after a quick look. (I could well have missed something though, as I'm almost asleep in my chair!)

Would be much appreciated if someone could let me know the general consensus on this?

P.S I did find a lot of posts regarding the clipping of rips/rakes with procs/tf/doc, but none regarding the refreshing of dots when your new dot has much lower power.

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Re: Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:33 pm

I had asked myself this a few times, but never actually went and found out. I got naked and hit on a dummy. I built up a Rip with TF and SR. I allowed SR to fall off and extended my Rip at 2 seconds. It seems the final tick takes on the power of the new Rip. IE if you refresh you lose the last tick of the big buffed Rip.

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Re: Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby raffy » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:43 pm

Rake works like this:

Rake ticks every 3 seconds.
Rake lasts 15sec => 5 ticks.

If you Rake a target without an existing Rake,
1. Create a 3 second timer
2. Set RakeTicks to 5
3. Set RakeDamage to Modifiers * Mastery * (99 + 0.3 * AP)
4. Apply Initial Rake Damage (check Crit, CritDamage, TargetModifiers)

When the timer fires,
1. Decrease RakeTicks by 1
2. Apply Rake DoT Damage (check Crit, CritDamage, TargetModifiers)
3. If RakeTicks > 1, schedule timer again

If you Rake a target with an existing Rake,
1. Leave the existing timer as-is
2. Set RakeTicks to 6
3. Update Rake Damage

Here is a Catus log of just Rake. In my notation, I only reset the tick number if the timer is reset (which would be if Rake falls off). You can see, that since Rake has not fallen off at all, the initial clock alignment (+89ms) is kept. However, note that the initial Rake damage (no # suffix) does not need to be aligned to the Rake clock.

In the clipped statement, the format is: [remaining ticks] (old modifiers) {old dmg} > net ratio > (new modifiers) {new dmg}.

Code: Select all
00:00.089 @A Rake           116173 Crit         +SR+Agi(5920)
00:01.089 @A Clipped: Rake [5] +SR+Agi(5920) 49296 > +15.09% > +SR+Agi(9855) 56733
00:01.089 @A Rake            59002 Hit          +SR+Agi(9855)
00:03.089 @A Rake#1/1          59002 Hit          +SR+Agi(9855)
00:04.089 @A Clipped: Rake [5] +SR+Agi(9855) 56733 > +15.00% > +SR+TF+Agi(9855) 65243
00:04.089 @A Rake           153754 Crit         +SR+TF+Agi(9855)
00:06.089 @A Rake#1/2          67853 Hit          +SR+TF+Agi(9855)
00:09.089 @A Rake#2/3         153754 Crit         +SR+TF+Agi(9855)
00:12.089 @A Rake#3/4         139776 Crit         +SR+TF+Agi(9855)
00:15.089 @A Rake#4/5         139776 Crit         +SR+TF+Agi(9855)
00:18.089 @A Rake#5/6          67853 Hit          +SR+TF+Agi(9855)
00:18.156 @A Clipped: Rake [1] +SR+TF+Agi(9855) 65243 > -8.87% > +SR+Agi(9585)+AP(4000) 59458
00:18.156 @A Rake           127384 Crit         +SR+Agi(9585)+AP(4000)
00:21.089 @A Rake#1/7          61837 Hit          +SR+Agi(9585)+AP(4000)
00:24.089 @A Rake#2/8          61837 Hit          +SR+Agi(9585)+AP(4000)
00:27.089 @A Rake#3/9         127384 Crit         +SR+Agi(9585)+AP(4000)
00:30.089 @A Rake#4/10        127384 Crit         +SR+Agi(9585)+AP(4000)
00:33.089 @A Rake#5/11        127384 Crit         +SR+Agi(9585)+AP(4000)
00:36.087 @A Clipped: Rake [1] +SR+Agi(9585)+AP(4000) 59458 > -20.27% > +SR+TF+Agi(1650) 47407
00:36.087 @A Rake            49303 Hit          +SR+TF+Agi(1650)
00:36.089 @A Rake#1/12        101564 Crit         +SR+TF+Agi(1650)
00:39.089 @A Rake#2/13        101564 Crit         +SR+TF+Agi(1650)
00:42.089 @A Rake#3/14        101564 Crit         +SR+TF+Agi(1650)
00:45.089 @A Rake#4/15         49303 Hit          +SR+TF+Agi(1650)
00:48.089 @A Rake#5/16         49303 Hit          +SR+TF+Agi(1650)
00:48.149 @A Clipped: Rake [1] +SR+TF+Agi(1650) 47407 > -19.62% > +SR 38104
00:48.149 @A Rake            39628 Hit          +SR
00:51.089 @A Rake#1/17         81635 Crit         +SR
00:52.599 @A Clipped: Rake [5] +SR 38104 > +19.52% > +SR+Agi(3935) 45543
00:52.599 @A Rake            97572 Crit         +SR+Agi(3935)
00:54.089 @A Rake#1/18         97572 Crit         +SR+Agi(3935)
00:57.089 @A Rake#2/19         47365 Hit          +SR+Agi(3935)


Pounce and Thrash work the same; Rip too, except it ticks every 2 sec.

Edit: 5, not 6 ticks.
Edit: tick reindexing for clarity
Last edited by raffy on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby aggixx » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:11 pm

@Raffy: Rake lasts 15 seconds, not 18. It does tick 6 times still if you count the direct damage as "tick zero".

TL;DR: Everytime you cast a DoT the damage is always recalculated from that point on. The reason you refresh after the second to last tick is only to achieve higher uptime.
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Re: Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby raffy » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:12 pm

oh shit, why was I thinking it was 18sec/6tick. I need to double-check Catus when I get home. Hopefully, I didn't make that mistake.

Edit: looking at my combat log snippet, I see initial tick + 6 ticks :( but maybe that combat log is old.

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Re: Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby raffy » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:49 am

Man that scared me, I thought I had Catus all f'd up (and that would imply simc was all f'd up too because I match simc pretty close) but luckily I just remembered wrong.

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Re: Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby Conix » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:02 am

Awesome thanks for that guys, so there is room for some dps gain (although it small and very risky due to latencys, and general boss mechanics) from letting it drop off first before reapply a weaker version? Or is it not worth the risk in your opinions?

@Tinder: Yeah, I too did similar testing like that and found the same results, but wasn't entirely confident in my own testing, so figured I'd ask you guys to be sure.

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Re: Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby raffy » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:31 am

Conix wrote:Awesome thanks for that guys, so there is room for some dps gain (although it small and very risky due to latencys, and general boss mechanics) from letting it drop off first before reapply a weaker version? Or is it not worth the risk in your opinions?

@Tinder: Yeah, I too did similar testing like that and found the same results, but wasn't entirely confident in my own testing, so figured I'd ask you guys to be sure.


My experiments in the simc thread (and the stat values thread) show that it is always a DPS increase to clip rake as some point in your rotation assuming it is not a significantly weaker Rake. Even if you consistently clip Rakes that are 5%+ weaker (Note: that this can only occur once, since once you clip it, the new existing Rake is at least temporarily break-even), it is a DPS increase over not clipping at all.

Both simc and Catus try to model human latency in some regards in their simulation. If you do not clip the last tick, then the timer resets, so the gap between ticks must be greater than the minimum, and is probably closer to tick frequency + 2x latency + some reaction time. A 7-minute fight would involve 28 non-overlapping Rakes and that would imply no clipping, yet there are far more proc/buff opportunities than that.

As we gain mastery in T15, a new question will be: when does break-even Rake become viable? There will never be a point that we only generate cp strictly with Rake, since once a percentage-based modifier fades, like TF or DoC, Shred will be better than replacing your existing Rake, but I could definitely see consuming both DoC charges on Rake via "Rake..pause..pause..Rake" in future rotations.

And for the current tier, I still think there is still value in lookahead clipping, but I don't have any data yet:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4498&start=25#p15638
(Also, a big problem with lookahead is that it requires addon-assistance AND good reaction time)

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Re: Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby aggixx » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:07 am

Conix wrote:Awesome thanks for that guys, so there is room for some dps gain (although it small and very risky due to latencys, and general boss mechanics) from letting it drop off first before reapply a weaker version? Or is it not worth the risk in your opinions?

If you're hit and expertise capped and always behind the target, possibly yes, but the damage gain you get out of it is definitely not worth the amount of attention it requires unless you're trying to go full WoL-ranking mode on a fight. I wouldn't try it if you didn't have stellar latency and at least a decent sense of timing.

Raffy, I'm not sure you understood what he was asking. He was asking if it would be beneficial to allow a stronger rake to drop off so that the final tick does full damage before applying a new Rake (since the tick that gets added to a refreshed rake does the recalculated damage, not the original damage).
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Re: Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby raffy » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:30 am

Raffy, I'm not sure you understood what he was asking. He was asking if it would be beneficial to allow a stronger rake to drop off so that the final tick does full damage before applying a new Rake (since the tick that gets added to a refreshed rake does the recalculated damage, not the original damage).

Nope, too many margaritas tonight :P Let me see if I can simulate this.

Also, one thing I was wondering, does simc have any support for figuring out which actions actually get used? Like are there any dead actions in the action list? I was thinking about adding support for something like this, because I was curious how often each of the /rake actions actually trigger:
Code: Select all
/rake,if=target.time_to_die>3&dot.rake.remains<6.0&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.up&dot.rake.multiplier<=tick_multiplier
/rake,if=target.time_to_die-dot.rake.remains>3&tick_multiplier%dot.rake.multiplier>1
/rake,if=target.time_to_die-dot.rake.remains>3&dot.rake.remains<3.0&(buff.berserk.up|(cooldown.tigers_fury.remains+0.8)>=dot.rake.remains|energy>60)


Edit: I removed the 3rd Rake statement, since it doesn't has a Ratio guard (the other two do) and it only comes into play for the last tick (remains<3), and it is a DPS loss if I remove this action.

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Re: Quick Question on DoT Refreshing

Postby aggixx » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:09 pm

It does, if you check the action list section of the HTML report there's a execute count for each action in a column left of the actual action.
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