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Rip Buff

Face-rippin fun.
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Rip Buff

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:56 pm

Wow, this is a little unexpected, but welcome!
Druid
- Rip damage +15%.


Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923993861#20

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Re: Rip Buff

Postby aggixx » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:34 pm

Honestly, it's a pretty poorly executed fix to our outstanding problems in 5.2. It'll probably give us a boost at the start of the tier but it will probably only emphasize the fact that everybody is going to outscale us because RPPM effects are so terrible for us. It also doesn't help in that it will make mastery pull even further ahead from the rest of our stats.
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Re: Rip Buff

Postby bearpelt » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:21 pm

Well, I nearly dropped my drink. Very unexpected indeed.

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Re: Rip Buff

Postby raffy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:47 pm

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Re: Rip Buff

Postby Elamari » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:55 pm

aggixx wrote:Honestly, it's a pretty poorly executed fix to our outstanding problems in 5.2.


Just so I'm on the same page, what problems are you referring to specifically?
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Re: Rip Buff

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:56 pm

We don't scale as well with our gear compared to most other classes. We also get much lower uptime's on RPPM items. Dancing Steel is a really good example.

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Re: Rip Buff

Postby aggixx » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:55 am

The uptime of RPPM effects (formerly Dancing Steel, and now the Legendary Meta Gem as well as almost every trinket in the whole tier) is balanced around having a certain amount of haste. Feral has the least haste of basically any spec and therefore RPPM trinkets are significantly worse for us than anyone else to they point where they are marginally better than some T14 trinkets.
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Re: Rip Buff

Postby Alpheus » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:02 am

Well that was unexpected - I'm really starting to hate the ever-increasing importance of passive procs in our rotation. First there was Windsong, then Dancing Steel then the Elegon trinket (which drops once on a blue moon) and now in 5.2 the new meta gem and a couple more trinket procs (Re-Origination LOL! :D). It's starting to feel like back in TBC when all the DKs and Rogues had Legendaries and DST.

I guess it's a lesser gap now because we have better tools at our disposal (like Ovale and DroodFocus) which bridge this gap a bit by allowing us to put more effort into the DOT tracking. Still, I think that this band-aiding will get out of control once one of the other DPS classes gets their clutch trinkets, gems and/or weapons.
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Re: Rip Buff

Postby raffy » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:46 am

I just don't get how Blizzard can ignore the effect of haste on RPPM. Aggixx and I and a few others brought up this point multiple times in the PTR Class thread. The fact that GC released that huge table of spec-specific RPPM coefficients for the Capac meta just shows something is messed up.

Icy Talons is now 30%, Slice and Dice is 40%, Fury Flurry is 25%, Shaman Flurry is 15%; it was already bad with pre-5.1 Dancing Steel, the RPPM change in 5.2 was a buff for us, but a bigger buff for everyone else. Rogues have like 70-90% uptime with Dancing Steel on live. And now we're getting these super low RPPM Agi trinkets (0.46, 0.56, 0.5) where the proc can be 4-5x as strong as Dancing Steel (1650 agi vs 8000+ agi on Juju proc). Even small differences in proc chance will cause noticeable differences in DPS when your gaining more than +30% of a primary stat.

I made a crude plot of RPPM and Haste vs Uptime on a 0-ICD, single-stack, proc:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/HasteRPPMUptime.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/HasteRPPMUptime2.png
(Green = 20sec duration, Red = 10sec duration)
(It's lumpy because my sample size was small and I didn't bother to figure out the analytic solution.)

In T15H gear, raid buffed, we've got about 22% haste (1.22 HasteMod).
A rogue would have 1.7+ (and probably more if Haste has more value than it does for us).

The triangles indicate where Feral (1.2) and Rogue (1.7) would land on the plot at two different RPPM's (1 and 2). The height of the triangle corresponds to the increase in Uptime. The slope of the triangle approximates the slope of the surface. The color matches the proc duration (10 or 20sec).

How 7-10% uptime on 8000+ Agility procs can be fixed with 15% damage on Rip is beyond me.
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Re: Rip Buff

Postby Vami » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:42 pm

I really hope they could fix at least some of the issues feral has. I'd figure it'd be so much easier to fix the scaling and be done, than go tweak the numbers a bit every time when a new patch lands...

Anyway, does anyone know if the rip buff affects the rotation somehow?

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Re: Rip Buff

Postby aggixx » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:22 pm

Haven't tried anything to determine yet and I don't think I plan to. It's pretty unlikely it'll affect anything, Rip uptime was already pretty important.
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Re: Rip Buff

Postby Elamari » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:27 pm

If this buff to Rip goes live what are the likely consequences? Will this make mastery and crit even more important and further devalue haste?

With the buff it will be making up a higher percentage of our overall damage, how will this affect its priority in the "rotation" and how will it affect the priority of other spells?

Just sort of thinking out aloud here, what do you guys think?

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Re: Rip Buff

Postby aggixx » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:30 pm

The only meaningful consequence I would expect is that it should increase the value of mastery by about 6%.
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Re: Rip Buff

Postby Sorcerer » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:02 pm

Someone post to the devs...

Instead RIP buff, change cat base attack speed from 1.0 (If i remember) to 0.75-0.85 and just lower % on clearcasts...

I just have a sick idea... but it would probably need serious patch. Make us dual attack with both claws...

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Re: Rip Buff

Postby aggixx » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:15 am

I've already made multiple posts on the subject. And changing our base attack speed wouldn't work because RPPM is based on your % increased attack speed, giving us a 10-20% attack speed passive would work though.
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