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T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:23 am

I think the notion of running two Vicious Talismans actually being pretty good is pretty hilarious. I might have to give Renataki's a better chance, I haven't really seriously tried it in a profile yet. Is it possible for me to use Catus to create gearsets? Because using WoWReforge to reforge is a massive pain in the ass.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby raffy » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:55 am

Moved Reply to Catus thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=911&p=15887#p15887
Last edited by raffy on Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:04 am

Outputting them in SimC format isn't particularly important (although it would be useful) I'm just interested in seeing if I could use Catus to easily generate reforges for a given gear set (I could manually enter the reforges into a SimC profile if need be). Currently I'm using WoWReforge and I have to look up and enter every stat on every item manually as well as account for gemming and socket bonuses and it's just a gigantic hassle that wastes a lot of time.

If it wasn't for that I probably would've tried Renataki's a while ago.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby raffy » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:16 am

Moved Reply to Catus thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=911&p=15887#p15887
Last edited by raffy on Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby raffy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:59 am

I also made this PTR wowhead search aggregator, which lists all Feral items:
http://raffy.antistupid.com/wow/ptr_gear.php

Unfortunately, it's difficult to filter the trinkets. Some of the set items for other classes don't have their class restrictions set.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:36 am

So after putting together a handful of sets of gears I can definitively say 4p + Chest of Coruscating Blades is better than 4p + Lightning-Eye Hood. The main difference is you get all the hit from the helm and lose all the expertise from the chest, meaning Vicious Talisman gets a hell of a lot harder to use without wasting hit (aka impossible) and Renataki's is pretty easy to fit.

Right now I'm currently experimenting with trinket combinations (single trinket comparison seems pretty useless this time around) and then I'll mess around with some piece selection.

Edit: Alright, this is what I have for trinkets so far. Numbers were done across multiple sims as I assembled the profiles so that's why it's not all in one report, obviously missing a lot of combinations but I have all of the ones at the top of your list plus some others. Will sim some more combinations tomorrow if I can.

Code: Select all
chest = Chest of Corruscating Blades (offpiece)
helm = Lightning-Eye Hood (offpiece)
bl = Talisman of Bloodlust
vt = Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
juju = Bad Juju
renatakis = Renataki's Soul Charm

#185983dps
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_profiles/Druid/Feral/T15H/Druid_Feral_T15H_chest_bl_vt.simc

#186071dps
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_profiles/Druid/Feral/T15H/Druid_Feral_T15H_chest_vt_vt.simc

#186192dps
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_profiles/Druid/Feral/T15H/Druid_Feral_T15H_chest_juju_bl.simc

#186204dps
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_profiles/Druid/Feral/T15H/Druid_Feral_T15H_chest_juju_vt.simc

#186495dps
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_profiles/Druid/Feral/T15H/Druid_Feral_T15H_helm_vt_vt.simc

#186660dps
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_profiles/Druid/Feral/T15H/Druid_Feral_T15H_helm_renatakis_vt.simc

#186739dps
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_profiles/Druid/Feral/T15H/Druid_Feral_T15H_chest_renatakis_juju.simc

#186878dps
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_profiles/Druid/Feral/T15H/Druid_Feral_T15H_chest_renatakis_bl.simc

#186970dps
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_profiles/Druid/Feral/T15H/Druid_Feral_T15H_chest_renatakis_vt.simc
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby raffy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:55 pm

It's good to see our DPS numbers are in the same ballpark. I listed my trinkets as RelativeDPS (%) because I was surprised how high the DPS was (180ish) so I figured I'd wait until you confirm them :D. I'll repost them with some raw numbers when I get home from work.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:37 pm

I don't know if it has been said here, but it looks to me like that off piece chest is a drop off of Ra-den. You still sticking with the Helm to be the offset during normal and heroic progression?

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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:51 pm

Yep, most likely. The helm is still a quite good offpiece since as you can see in the list it's the better offpiece if you're trying to run double Vicious Talisman. We don't really know yet if they share an ICD or not, but if they don't they are very very accessible and provide us a very reliable way to get some pretty strong trinkets.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:02 pm

In other news, word on the street is that Rune of Re-Origination is available from Flaskataur on PTR, and they made it so that the buff can't be cancelled. LOL! What a shitty excuse for a trinket.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby Dysheki » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:21 pm

The first time I read the trinket weeks ago I thought it said it would bring the lower secondary stats UP TO the level of the highest secondary stat (must have been drinking, I dunno). I thought that sounded like a fun idea, but then I saw it the next day and was just baffled.

They really need to either look at it now or be ready for the ridicule from basically every class. I have yet to see anyone really 'huzzah' at this trinket.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby raffy » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:10 pm

Rune changed again:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=22#431

That probably puts it somewhere between my incorrect (TrinketRank2.png) version and it's previous implementation (TrinketRank3.png) -- but I'm just guessing, I haven't sim'd it yet.

It's still probably bad for any class that benefits heavily from one of their secondary stats (like us and Mastery).

Increasing the proc and decreasing the duration is good for us, considering Rip/Rake snapshotting, but for the same haste points, it reduces the relative Uptime (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/HasteRPPMUptime.png: compare the 2 RPPM triangle heights to the 1 RPPM triangle heights) making it even better for classes with higher haste.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:38 pm

With the crit snap shotting for DoTs isn't having 0 crit for our bleeds going to detract the big mastery buff? Also with only 10 seconds we can get in what maybe 4-5 Rakes if we don't refresh or extend anything. Better of course if we get lucky and it procs with TF off cooldown, but that won't be consistant. Even if we did refresh would it be worth it to have a 22 second Rip with 0 crits?

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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:54 pm

Having 0 crit rating is far from 0 crit chance since most of the crit you have is from your agility. I believe last I checked you'd be losing about 1/4th of your crit chance, which is definitely a detriment, but with the huge buff to the trinket it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Prior to the buff my calculation for one of my profiles was that the trinket proccing would multiply my normal bleed damage by 1.06 (accounting for both the gain in mastery and loss in crit), now it should be much more significant. Halved duration is more of a good thing than a bad thing because previously we lost interest in the proc once we started being unable to spam Rake without clipping a stronger proc, now we'll be able to get much better use out of it.

I would expect it to be VERY competitive with the other best trinkets after this change.

PS: Grats on 1k posts Tinder.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:08 pm

Preliminary sims are that it's ridiculously overpowered. More to come.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:36 pm

Guess I stand corrected. Guess I should give it a shot on the PTR and see what it looks like.

EDIT: Also wow didn't even see the post count. Kinda crazy.

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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:38 pm

Raid starting now, but here's what I got:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... 14259.html

All of my "wut."

Edit: This is without the rip buff, these numbers are directly comparable to the ones at the top of the page.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby raffy » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:59 pm

You reforged Crit to be just under Mastery? That's a good idea.

Edit: Good question from Arielle: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=24#470
Quick follow-up though: Is the ICD still 22 seconds with the "new" version?


Edit: Have you tried Mastery > Haste > Crit where they're all about the same? I should add an option to Catus reforger to establish Precedence when weights are identical.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:50 pm

Yeah, I was going to ask that as well but I'm busy trying to do this stuff in between pulls atm.

flapjack pointed out that sim was without changing the ICD / RPPM / Dur, after changing the RPPM to double, the ICD to 12, and the duration to 10, uptime went up about 1% and DPS went up about 3k.

Will try haste > mastery > crit while keeping mastery > haste when I get the chance.

Was going to try Talisman of Bloodlust but it will probably be terrible because it's going to be crazy hard to keep haste from eclipsing mastery. You could cancel the buff whenever the stack got too high but obviously that would gimp the shit out of the trinket.

Edit: Updated weights for the updated duration & ICD: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... ights.html

I also confirmed that Talisman of Bloodlust is bad, it's about a 2.75k if you cancel the buff when it passes mastery, or a 2.5k loss if you don't.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby raffy » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:17 am

That profile seems to be 1700 agi heavy. The suffix your using on the bracers uses the 4-stat Windstorm, which also includes Stamina and Agility. I don't know if that fully accounts for the difference.

I redid the Rune as well, I also found a few bugs in my Trinket sim, here is my latest ranking:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/TrinketRank4.png
(still using Mastery-reforge, I'll redo with an 1:1:1 M>H>C reforge soon)

I added the actual median DPS, but it seems a little high, however I'm getting very similar damage breakdowns and uptimes as you. I need to look at some more combat logs to see if I screwed something up.

One thing that's interesting is that the Soul Charm can produce some pretty crazy outliers. You can also see in your Simc DPS histogram (the upper tail extends up to 240k dps).
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:39 am

I ran a profile with just the bracers (ungemmed and unenchanted) and the profile has 900 agility and 1471 stamina from gear as expected.

I'm getting similar ridiculous outliers with my profile (btw, current version can be found here). The profile does about 202k with Haste > Mastery > Crit while keeping Mastery > Crit, and most extreme outlier is around the 250k mark. Here's a scale factor run I did (note that the scale factors are completely messed up, they aren't representative of how you should itemize or reforge at all):

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... hts_3.html

I did a set of sims with a couple different stat distributions as well as a reforge plot for haste vs crit, and the conclusions I came to were as follows:
  • The profile takes a huge damage hit if Mastery isn't the highest stat (obviously).
  • 1 Haste is always better than 1 Crit (given that Mastery is still higher than both)
  • The difference in effectiveness between mastery, crit, and haste is small enough that it is more effective to try to maximize the size of the rune proc than it is to try to maximize haste.

So it seems the priority is something like this:
Keep Mastery as your highest stat > Maximize the size of the proc (Haste > Crit where applicable)
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby raffy » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:14 pm

Ah, some of the agility difference is because I was still using the T15 chest and Lightning Hood and different neck and bracer (my random enchantment implementation was making the agility 0). The only remaining difference is the socket bonus on the T15 helm is 180 crit, not 180 agi.

I agree that the Rune would be even better with a proper reforge (I'm still using mastery reforges). I might experiment with dropping Exp/Hit below cap.

Edit: I added one more configuration to my Trinket Rank using your gear (Tier Head instead of Chest, etc...) and wow, having more balanced secondary stats (I included a Cat Stats SS in the ranking) adds 4k more DPS:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/TrinketRank6.png

Also, all the new PTR items automatically show up in my PTR feral gear list thing, if anyone is making spreadsheets or w/e:
http://raffy.antistupid.com/wow/ptr_gear.php

Edit: apparently crit damage bonus is not snapshot, so I think that explains the difference between simc, I'm removing this functionality and redoing these sims again.

Edit: poop, that made my DPS go up, not down, haha. Probably because I had no action list optimization to make sure Skull Banner was down for BitW'd Rip.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:40 am

As requested raffy, the newest profile can be found here (this link should always lead to the highest DPS full profile I have at the time):

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... _T15H.simc

Also a copy/paste of the profile as of the time of this post can be found here.

After finishing my action list tweaks I also did a resim on my profiles with different stat distributions, results here. Still pretty clear that going 1:1:1 ratio is going to yield the most DPS but picking the pieces that allow you to do that as efficiently as possible could be tricky.
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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby Vami » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:24 pm

Would it be possible to also create a bis-list that excludes the drops from Ra-den completely? Just so that you'd have something to aim for while the instance is still in progress. I'll probably try and create some form of a pre-Ra-den list for myself at least (maybe here also?), but I'd imagine this would be a popular request considering there are no "normal mode Ra-den drops". Just a thought if someone has the tools and the interest to _truly_ min/max the gear. My tools would be pencil&paper... (Should maybe try to get into that simcrafting stuff a bit more really...)

Also, are there any news about the tier 15 normal mode trinkets compared to t15hc and t14hc? Or any further confirmation about the previous rankings?

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Re: T15 Itemization and BiS Discussion

Postby aggixx » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:15 am

I hope to get trinket comparisons as well as regenerate the previous results from Tuesday today (Saturday). A normal mode / non-Raden BiS list is unlikely to come in the near future, takes a lot of time to put together a full set of gear for a profile and I don't have a whole lot of free time at the moment (outside of progression and some other WoW-related things that are taking priority).
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