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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby raffy » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:46 am

I found a good solution to automatic reforging of 1:1:1 Mastery, Haste, Crit with M>H>C for Rune. Instead of searching exhaustively, I can just randomly find solutions using a big enough sample size. From my testing, these seem pretty good. The reforge universe is just too huge (500 billion possibilities) with such relaxed constraints.

I'm currently building 93 trinket pair gear configurations for all of the 502, 522, and 528 trinkets, along with 2/2 Bottle and 2/2 Terror, using 4/5 522 T15 with Valor gear and Jin'rokh helm (typically gear for right now.) If the profile contains Rune, it's reforging isn't perfect, otherwise, it's best possible reforging.

I'm going to sim these overnight using the latest action list Aggixx has posted (with Rune optimizations and Thrash tick_modifier.)

I did another sanity pass in Catus: creating lots of combat logs and just reading through them looking for oddities. It looks pretty good, I couldn't find anything obvious. The most likely source of any bug would be numbers that changed in 5.2 that I didn't adjust (Catus isn't backed by dbc like simc is, so I have to manually enter all the coefficients.)

Because I was curious, I quickly generated a 1k-sim table.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/TrinketRank7.png

For each trinket, I can then find every pair that it showed up in, and average across it:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/Trinke ... Merged.png (edit: sorted by wrong column, use 5k-tables below)
(Note: the best trinket on average, may not be BiS, but it does suggest an upgrade path. These trinket's are essentially ordered by how well they pair up, on average, with everything else.)

Edit: made a 5k table too:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/TrinketRank8.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/Trinke ... Merged.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/Trinke ... dBest5.png

Edit: 100k sim table:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/TrinketRank9.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/Trinke ... Merged.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/Trinke ... dBest5.png

Edit: Possibly the Talisman requires standard reforging optimization when it is paired with the Rune; getting a haste proc is pointless. Looking that the 100k results, it appears that the Talisman is probably proc'ing Rune w/Haste. I'll fix this later today.

Edit: You might ask, why isn't the Rune better? Remember this is 522ish gear (I forgot to link the gear and average item level, I'll do this tonight). So the sum of H+M+C isn't as high as it would be in heroic gear. With better gear, the rest of the trinkets would relatively stay the same and the Rune would get significantly better.

The results seem pretty stable, I don't see any out-of-order [Thunderforged > Normal > LFR] configurations in the merged rankings.

The 'MergedBest5' table is produced by taking the 5 best configurations (of the 12 or 14) and averaging them together. This avoids punishing trinkets that do not work well together.

Comparing Best to Worst, there is a ~5.5% DPS gain in picking the best trinkets. For comparison, that's about as strong as the 2p+4p T15 bonuses.

Edit#9000: I'm using a resting RPPM "LastProc" time of 5 minutes. I believe the maximum is 1000 seconds (16.67 minutes) which seems like an unrealistic amount of idle time between wipes.

Edit#9001: Rank 50: Bottle and Vicious doesn't seem to fair that well. There are many raid finder permutations above it, and it's maximum DPS is surprisingly low. Rank 22 and 34: Bottle and Soul Charm does much better.

Edit: 500k sim table:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/TrinketRank10.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/Trinke ... Merged.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/Trinke ... dBest5.png

Edit: I tried to fix the Talisman of Bloodlust sims by making "buff.rune_of_reorigination.up" only return true for mastery. Still, Haste procs are devastating:
Spoiler: show
Code: Select all
03:49.612 +Rune of Re-Origination<528>: Haste (C:4526,H:9599,M:6519)
03:49.797 @A Rip`5#9                 67243 Hit          +SR+DoC+Mastery(18488)-Crit(4526)
03:49.974 -PS
03:49.974 HT`PS
03:50.132 @A Melee                   41673 Crit         +SR+Agi(1650)
03:50.132 LOTP
03:50.597 @A Thrash/Cat#5            62212 Crit         +SR+Mastery(18488)-Crit(4526)
03:50.597 @A -Thrash/Cat+SR+Mastery(18488)-Crit(4526)
03:50.652 @A Melee                   20902 Hit          +SR+Agi(1650)
03:51.164 @A Mangle                  62049 Hit          +SR+DoC+Agi(1650)
03:51.164 @A Combo: 5 (+1)
03:51.172 @A Melee                   35601 Crit         +SR+Agi(1650)
03:51.407 @A Rake#2                  84506 Crit         +SR+Agi(1650)
03:51.692 @A Melee                   19015 Hit          +SR+Agi(1650)
03:51.797 @A Rip`5#10                67243 Hit          +SR+DoC+Mastery(18488)-Crit(4526)
03:52.212 @A Melee                   41841 Crit         +SR+Agi(1650)
03:52.732 @A Melee                   18338 Hit          +SR+Agi(1650)
03:53.159 @A Clipped: Rip`5+SR+DoC+Mastery(18488)-Crit(4526) [1+0] 84237 > -44.04% > Rip`5+SR+DoC+Agi(1650)-Mastery(6519)-Crit(4526) 47141
03:53.159 +PS`5
03:53.159 @A Combo: 1 (+1)

That Rip is clipped at the final tick ([1+0] means 1 tick remaining, 0 extends available) and it is a transition between a Rune'd w/Mastery Rip and a Rune'd w/Haste Rip: -44% :(

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Dysheki » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:51 am

So, complete speculation here: Rune will probably be pretty good for the last tier too.

Agree/disagree?
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:25 pm

In general this proc is so good they will be forced to nerf it as I bet it would continue to be good with new content. While they may allow it to extend to the end of the expac they will nerf it for sure before the new one hits.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby F. Swag » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Thanks for all this math. The trinkets this tier are pretty crazy, looking forward to reforging to 1:1:1 to lots of quizzical faces

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Yriss » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:22 pm

I managed to reach 32k+ mastery with it raid buff, this proc is so good and will be better with heroic gear... i hope blizz won't nerf it before next extension
But it's really a pain to reforge ...

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby raffy » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:07 pm

Yriss wrote:But it's really a pain to reforge ...

If the many public reforge options aren't able to produce decent results, I could upload a version of Catus that would allow you to generate a 1:1:1 reforging easily. Or if you post an armory link, I could give you a reforging.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:48 am

There's a mostly painless way to do it with WoWReforge, maybe I'll write up a how to sometime.

Basically, set crit/haste/mastery to the same value with hit/exp higher and then optimize. After you have your hit and exp, uncheck the "to modify" checkbox below those stats, and change mastery's value to double. You can then impose minimum requirement on haste and crit and keep raising them until they pass mastery, then drop back one notch.

Edit: Took the time to record a nice guide on how to do this! You can check it out here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoBHtjk5EH8

Hope people like it ^^
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Yriss » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:45 am

i used wowrefoge tuesday, i managed after a looong time (i'll try your tips next time aggix, thx, it'll be a lot faster) to find a reforge with only 30 rating between crit and mastery with crit~haste<mastery and new orange gems ... until i reforged, changed gems, and found my crit was higher than intended ... Take care, perhaps it's because i'm LW but my legs enchant didn't count into this reforging, i had to put it manually (i added 165 crit rating on rune and locked it) and do all my tries on wowreforge again

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:29 pm

It's more likely you didn't update your upgraded items. WowReforge does not pull the upgraded info from the armory, so you need to update each upgraded piece in Wowreforge before attempting to do the balance.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Yriss » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:19 pm

i have only boots 517, and i manualy change stats for them before ... After double checking, it was my leg enchant, i don't know why wowreforge didn't count it

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby raffy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:18 pm

Dysheki wrote:So, complete speculation here: Rune will probably be pretty good for the last tier too.

Agree/disagree?

Agree. The Rune will keep pulling ahead as we gear up. I was doing some analysis with ~550 ilvl gear last night but I didn't get to finish it before work.

Although, the fact that Blizzard already is scaling some RPPM (like Rune) with item level, I see it as an easy fix for them to dampen the proc rate as the ilvl of the trinket diverges from your average ilvl (or maybe comparing player level to required level.)

On a side rant, I wish they'd drop all passive stats (or all secondary stats) from trinkets and return them to purely proc-based mechanics. Not being able to swap between trinkets easily due to reforging is a huge QoL needle.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:48 pm

I agree in the context of Hit/Exp. It makes a lot of sense to have hit/exp/spirit on early level trinkets (IE dungeon blues) as people will have a more difficult time getting to those caps. However the second tier is a real good time to move away from that crap. As it is I am about 200 over the exp cap with no way to get lower (thats with out an exp trinket). There is just so much of it on our tier and jewelery that it's pretty over the top.

I remember in DS I had to use the 391 Firelands relic because in BIS gear the 397 one would put me above the exp cap. The 6 ilvl difference was actually worth it by not wasting the over capped exp. I blame that on Rogues getting legendary weapons, so everything was geared to give them the biggest advantage. I understand why they do it. Having to much hit/exp on a few drops could screw some unlucky folks. However to much hurts folks who are getting consistant drops. I wish they would plan it a little better.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Cerise » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:26 am

raffy wrote:
Yriss wrote:But it's really a pain to reforge ...

If the many public reforge options aren't able to produce decent results, I could upload a version of Catus that would allow you to generate a 1:1:1 reforging easily. Or if you post an armory link, I could give you a reforging.


Please do Raffy.

I'm currently using Catus (the JAR version from the last reply in the Catus topic) to try to reforge to 1:1:1 to optimize my Rune. Catus allows you to set a lower and upper bound for stat ratings that work together with stat weights. I've found this works a lot better than using Mr Robot, which uses stat weights alone. I also much prefer Catus over Wowreforge.com cause Catus actually reads upgraded items and thunderforged items correctly.

So far I'm getting a pretty good reforge with just tinkering with the reforge settings, but if you have a version of Catus with an actual algorithm designed for a 1:1:1 reforge, that would be much better.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby raffy » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:42 am

Cerise wrote:
raffy wrote:
Yriss wrote:But it's really a pain to reforge ...

If the many public reforge options aren't able to produce decent results, I could upload a version of Catus that would allow you to generate a 1:1:1 reforging easily. Or if you post an armory link, I could give you a reforging.


Please do Raffy.

I'm currently using Catus (the JAR version from the last reply in the Catus topic) to try to reforge to 1:1:1 to optimize my Rune. Catus allows you to set a lower and upper bound for stat ratings that work together with stat weights. I've found this works a lot better than using Mr Robot, which uses stat weights alone. I also much prefer Catus over Wowreforge.com cause Catus actually reads upgraded items and thunderforged items correctly.

So far I'm getting a pretty good reforge with just tinkering with the reforge settings, but if you have a version of Catus with an actual algorithm designed for a 1:1:1 reforge, that would be much better.

Download latest Catus: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/Catus2.rar

Launch it by opening Catus.jar (you'll need JRE installed.) On first launch, it needs to download a few things (but I included most stuff in the download.)

Import your Character from Armory. If you have a Rune equipped (or select it via the paper doll), in the Reforge section, there will be a special "Rune of Re-origination detected" option showing your M/H/C (green/red depending on M>H>C). To use this special type of reforging you need to click the "Reforge 1:1:1" button.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/ReforgeRune.png

1:1:1 reforging respects Hit/Exp Bounds and Weight, but ignores Mastery/Haste/Crit. So, for a typical configuration, you'll need to set Hit/Exp lower bounds to 2550, and leave everything else blank.

1:1:1 reforging cannot be performed exhaustively. In the lower-left, there is a menu that lets you select the search algorithm, choose one of the random ones. "Random:Fast" works pretty well, you might need to try it a few times.

If you check "Save Log", you will get a textual dump with information about the reforging process:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/ReforgeLogExample.txt

If you import my profile (Edgy/Suramar), you can see I found a pretty nice setup for myself: exactly 7.50% hit and exp, with a 5237 / 5127 / 5102 split.

I don't know of any export options for in-game addons that accept an import string. If there is, I could easily add support for that. Just let me know.

Edit: Direct Catus-related responses to Catus thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=911

Edit: Catus does not work properly with random-stat gear. I'll have a fix for this soon. I've been stubborn, trying to get Blizzard to fix the API on their end, but I now know that I need to come up with my own solution to this problem. If you're savvy, you can edit the JSON file corresponding to the TpT Bracers that get a <Random Enchantment> and add the corresponding stats directly to that file, then restart Catus.
Last edited by raffy on Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Dysheki » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:20 am

aggixx wrote:You can then impose minimum requirement on haste and crit

What a simple and yet amazing solution. I wish I didn't have my head up my butt and realized that myself. (I think it's because I usually do my reforges real quick after raid and I'm 100% focused on sleeping, lol, or at least I would like to think that's how I missed it)
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Dysheki » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:22 am

Tinderhoof wrote:I agree in the context of Hit/Exp. It makes a lot of sense to have hit/exp/spirit on early level trinkets (IE dungeon blues) as people will have a more difficult time getting to those caps. However the second tier is a real good time to move away from that crap. As it is I am about 200 over the exp cap with no way to get lower (thats with out an exp trinket). There is just so much of it on our tier and jewelery that it's pretty over the top.

They were discussing having an increasing cap as the expansion moved along but I think scrapped it because it would be confusing for most people. But I personally think it was a good idea /shrug

Or at least stop putting hit/exp on trinkets :(
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Sorcerer » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:45 pm

Rune is so f**** op I have no words.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/pla ... Cat_Druid/

Compare #1st and my #4 log...

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:59 pm

The RNG involved is super dependent. Look at my log this week on Iron Qon: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/7dogjgxommjbvzbi/details/0/?s=7188&e=7818. The #1 log you posted the guy had a 22% uptime which is really good. I had a 13% uptime. However it was wildly inconsistent. I had a few to start then 2:30 between procs, then 3 minutes before getting a few close together. I will say on a pull the damage you put out is CRAZY. With everything proc'd Rip can be hitting for +300k. I have yet to get lucky enough to have a Rune proc for a sub 25% burn. When that happens oh man.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby raffy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:31 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:The RNG involved is super dependent. Look at my log this week on Iron Qon: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/7dogjgxommjbvzbi/details/0/?s=7188&e=7818. The #1 log you posted the guy had a 22% uptime which is really good. I had a 13% uptime. However it was wildly inconsistent. I had a few to start then 2:30 between procs, then 3 minutes before getting a few close together. I will say on a pull the damage you put out is CRAZY. With everything proc'd Rip can be hitting for +300k. I have yet to get lucky enough to have a Rune proc for a sub 25% burn. When that happens oh man.

Yeah, the sims show there's like a potential to do +40% more DPS with good alignment. I can't even fathom the potential for epic Soul-Swap scumbagging on Megaera.

I was in Tahoe snowboarding all last week so I haven't got to test out my Rune yet. I finally got a chance to try it last night in LFR and I was doing nearly 3x the damage of the next person, although that's probably because late Monday LFR is full of unfathomable bads. Especially our opener...damn.

I definitely need to make the proc more obvious in my UI. I often found myself doing a Rake, pool for Thrash, and Rake until proc faded, as I was occasionally unable to get 5cp quickly enough. I'm kind of curious about the value of a 3pt and 4pt Rips with Rune. I think I need to look at some of the DroodFocus code for calculating existing Rake/Rip/Thrash stuff and try to incorporate it into InlineAura. I need some kind of visual indicator to prevent me from overwriting Rune'd Rake/Thrash.
Last edited by raffy on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby baver » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:30 pm

Its the time you get almost perfect trinket proccs you wish the rogues could you you tricks for those 200k+ rips :)
One big problem i have with the trinket is that if you are unlucky you can go without procc for like 1-2min and when it finally happens you did a FB and dont have time to get a rip up in time befor the trinket procc expire.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Beatrix » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:52 pm

About the reforging and keeping Mastery, Crit and Haste equal does that require that you have both Renataki's and Rune or does it work if I only have Vicious Talisman and Renataki? I have had horrible luck with the loot drops...

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Vami » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:56 am

Sorcerer wrote:Rune is so f**** op I have no words.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/pla ... Cat_Druid/

Compare #1st and my #4 log...

To have that kind of luck with the procs... Ahh, I maybe should've left the Crimson Fogs to others as well. :) But yeah, I usually feel like every time I've just put Rip up without a RoRO proc, it wants to proc afterwards as if saying "hähää, gotcha again, what're you gonna do this time?"... Meh.



Beatrix wrote:About the reforging and keeping Mastery, Crit and Haste equal does that require that you have both Renataki's and Rune or does it work if I only have Vicious Talisman and Renataki? I have had horrible luck with the loot drops...


It is mostly about Rune of Re-Origination and maximizing its proc. If you don't have RoRO, there's no real reason to reforge to 1:1:1.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Helistar » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:36 am

Any solution/answer for the 522 trinkets being above the 528 ones? Because if it's really the rake refreshes that are messing things up then it means that the rake refresh logic is wrong..... which is not a good thing :)

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:38 am

Haven't really had the time to look into it. And that doesn't necessarily mean the rake refresh logic is wrong, just not very precise.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby raffy » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:03 am

I dunno if anyone uses it, but I made a minor upgrade to Catus so you can export your current reforging to Reforgerade format, you need to download Catus and follow the instructions in the post above.
Screenshot: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2989349/ReforgeRune2.png

Edit: I also relaxed the constraints so it allows crit to be higher than haste if that provides a better reforge aka M>Max(H,C).
Technically, I'm maximizing the objective: H+M+C-0.1*(M-Min(H,C)) st. M>H and M>C
Edit: There are a few bugs with this, I'll upload a fixed version in a few.
Edit: Fixed bugs (I never actually tested it with Reforgerade, damn plural slot names :p)
Edit: I also broke something with upgrades, will fix later tonight.
Edit: Fixed, apparently simc changed their sc_item_data format (added another column) which broke my parser. Possibly your existing Catus will still work until the cache is refreshed in a week or so, I suggest downloading the latest copy from the link above.

Helistar wrote:Any solution/answer for the 522 trinkets being above the 528 ones? Because if it's really the rake refreshes that are messing things up then it means that the rake refresh logic is wrong..... which is not a good thing :)

Did you see my results from above?
Last edited by raffy on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:22 am, edited 4 times in total.

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