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Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

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Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

Postby feralminded » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:34 pm

It's pretty clear when executed perfectly DoC is a 3-5% increase over HoTW, but when done wrong (or I guess, not at all) how much lower does it fall? I suppose the base case is take DoC and ignore every PS proc which should result in ~6-7% less overall DPS, but how about if you just hit every PS immediately and don't quite do it "right"? I guess my question is, given DoC can be from -7% to +5%, where does is nominally land? I am more or less intellectually curious, I raid lead and HoTW is essentially a requirement (I personally can't run a 25 man raid and maintain DoC, just can't) and am always finding myself blowing HoTW on a tranq or to tank a fight on a messy pull or whatever. I guess what I'm asking is, how much of a baddie am I for opting out and can I make myself feel better by saying "for an average pull HoTW is nominally the same"? Just trying to make myself feel better. I mean I rank on plenty of fights but I have yet to break into a top 20 parse and most of them are usually DoC.
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Re: Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:53 pm

Isn't your raid being successful the main goal? I really feel that if you pick the talent that lets your team win you aren't being a baddie. There are plenty of very well progressed Ferals who use HotW. Having only filled in from time to time calling out stuff, I can see why HotW would be much more forgiving then trying to make DoC work (plus the utility is nice). As for breaking the top 20 it usually takes some luck and some helping out of your guild. If your trinket procs line up perfect, you are getting tricks all the time, or your raids strat allows you to tunnel or AOE it up that is when you break into the top end. If you guys are winning, and you are raid leading you shouldn't feel bad about doing what you need to do.

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Re: Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

Postby aggixx » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:52 pm

Here's some numbers, but keep in mind this is just messing up the DoC part, every other part of the rotation is executed well (hard to say perfect, since it's kind of designed around playing DoC correctly, heh). Most importantly this means that for the "InstaPS" profiles, the PS procs are getting used and converted to DoC charges instantly, but the ability selection for those charges is still reasonably smart (eg lots of rake clipping). Also, realistically someone who's pretty bad at DoC would be likely to miss some PS procs but I don't think there's a good way to simulate that behavior.

DoC: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... 02287.html
HotW: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... 02334.html
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Re: Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

Postby baver » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:17 pm

I dont feel like im falling behind at all when i go hotw tbh, and with the extra raidcd + be able to randomheal yourself and others without losing out on dps is somting i would realy hate to lose. And ofc its 10times easyer to not fail on moving out from bad stuff etc with hotw when you dont have to think about the rotation to much, especially when you have the Rune of Re-Origination to.

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Re: Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

Postby ShmooDude » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:21 pm

Honestly, I don't see DoC as that great a talent as far as 'beating the encounter' is concerned. Which is more likely to help your raid group, 3-5% more DPS (granted this is gonna have more of an impact on 10s vs 25s; I raid 25s), or using HT's for healing instead of DPS? For me the answer is firmly in the HT for health side. Opinions on that may differ. DoC is for setting records, HotW and NV are for beating bosses.

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Re: Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

Postby Vami » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:54 am

I personally enjoy playing DoC more than HotW, and as I'm more used to it anyway, that's mostly my choice. I don't fall behind on dps with either but I just enjoy DoC more. I had to use HotW for the Tranq on Megaera when we progressed it, but on the kill I ended up being DC'd the part where I was supposed to use the Tranq so... Yeah, I felt pretty useless that try anyway. Still, I've been thinking about switching to HotW to be able to use HT more efficiently (without worrying if it's a dps loss if I save a fellow raider) but I'm not sure if it would really be worth it in a 25-man raid. But maybe, even if it's just "might save someone sometimes" it is enough to make it a better choice.

Oh, and if anyone's interested, here are my logs from Megaera while playing HotW (28 tries on 24.3.2013) and DoC (12 tries on 4.4.2013). Dunno if anyone's able to tell if there's some obvious difference those tries but since it's slightly relevant to this topic and I've got pretty many pulls with both on the same fight with both... Yeah. :) Might be interesting data for someone.

And to answer the actual topic, imo the worst you can do with DoC is miss the PS procs or use them on mangle or something (like already mentioned in the thread). Also, if you focus too much on the rotation and die because of that, that's also a fail. Following trinket procs might not be as easy as while playing HotW, and getting the 2xtrinket-procced + DoC Rip in might be a bit more challenging (and luck-involving) than getting a 2xtrinket-proc Rip in with HotW.

BUT I think the most important part is that with DoC you can get more dps if everything lines up correctly and you play it perfectly. With HotW, you can't go that high up but you can't go that much down either.

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Re: Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:52 pm

ShmooDude wrote:Honestly, I don't see DoC as that great a talent as far as 'beating the encounter' is concerned. Which is more likely to help your raid group, 3-5% more DPS (granted this is gonna have more of an impact on 10s vs 25s; I raid 25s), or using HT's for healing instead of DPS? For me the answer is firmly in the HT for health side. Opinions on that may differ. DoC is for setting records, HotW and NV are for beating bosses.

Keep in mind DoC boosts your PS heals by 30%. When I did 10-man heroic progression, I picked DoC for most fights and still optimized my PS procs for healing, doing slightly less damage but taking advantage of the 30% healing boost.

25-man healing is a lot more AoE- and cooldown-oriented, however, and now that I'm raiding 25s I usually take HotW for the boosted tranquility.

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Re: Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

Postby ShmooDude » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:13 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:
ShmooDude wrote:Honestly, I don't see DoC as that great a talent as far as 'beating the encounter' is concerned. Which is more likely to help your raid group, 3-5% more DPS (granted this is gonna have more of an impact on 10s vs 25s; I raid 25s), or using HT's for healing instead of DPS? For me the answer is firmly in the HT for health side. Opinions on that may differ. DoC is for setting records, HotW and NV are for beating bosses.

Keep in mind DoC boosts your PS heals by 30%. When I did 10-man heroic progression, I picked DoC for most fights and still optimized my PS procs for healing, doing slightly less damage but taking advantage of the 30% healing boost.

25-man healing is a lot more AoE- and cooldown-oriented, however, and now that I'm raiding 25s I usually take HotW for the boosted tranquility.


True, personally I prefer NV for healing but I could see DoC working too.

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Re: Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

Postby Syo » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:42 pm

This comes down to one of those "which can you utilize more properly to maximum effect?" If you are getting more use out of HoTW, and damage is fine (which it should be because of the passive bonus) and you can't maximize DoC use, then your answer should likely be HoTW. Plus as people have pointed out, it's got great potential uses for healing and a massive Tranq in a fight.

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Re: Any idea of what the WORST you can do with DoC is?

Postby feralminded » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:28 pm

I definitely appreciate you guys indulging my curiosity and big thanks to Aggix for actually running the numbers. Looks like "dumb" DoC where you just press the button instantly comes out approximately equal with HoTW (actually slightly ahead), which is pretty interesting. Also I do feel, as was rightly pointed out here, that the 30% boost to Healing Touch for DoC should not be ignored. I also feel that NV's raid utility is also sometimes ignored (in my experience NV does the most passive raid healing of them all which can matter a lot when cutting healers). Honestly HoTW is usually useless (but easy) ... except when its not (MT dies on Iron Qon P3 when we're out of resses, I pop HoTW and take a turn at tanking allowing the other tank to drop his stacks and getting us to P4 for a kill). I find the Tranq nice as well but again it's only useful when things go wrong (and the tranq may not pull us out of it). I feel like NV might actually be better when planning around actively cutting healers and trying to get more passive raid healing, excepting of course for a fight like Magaera.
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