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FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

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FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Jeshu » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:17 pm

I'm looking over how DoTs that are refreshed indirectly interact with player state. It seems like the general rule of thumb is:

  • DoTs directly applied take and retain the player's current stats when they were applied.
  • Existing DoTs that are refreshed are updated to the player's current stats after the current tick.

The way Ferocious Bite refreshes Rip at sub-25% doesn't seem to follow these rules. The power of DoC is that we can get a powerful Rip on the target and keep refreshing that Rip via FB until the target is dead while retaining the original stats on the Rip.

Are there other refreshed DoTs in WoW that also behave this way, or is this unique to Rip/FB?

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:27 pm

Rip didn't even do this in Cata. This behavior started in the MoP beta. Leafkiller, myself and others reported the behavior on the forums during the beta. As nothing was done, it was either a big oversite, or they just chose to let us keep this as our form of Execute. I don't know exactly how this goes but I have been hearing about Unholy DK's being able to keep buffs rolling on their refreshed DoTs. Other then that I don't know any other class that behaves like this.

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:44 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:I don't know exactly how this goes but I have been hearing about Unholy DK's being able to keep buffs rolling on their refreshed DoTs.

Unholy DKs use festering strike, which extends their diseases. I think rip is the only DoT that actually refreshes at original duration without using a new snapshot.

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Jeshu » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:15 pm

Hmmm, now I'm quite curious. A hunter's Chimera Shot will refresh the duration of Serpent Sting to it's full duration as well. I wonder if Serpent Sting behaves like Rip and keeps its original stats when refreshed by Chimera Shot in this way.

I wonder if the general rule of thumb should be amended. For instance, Shred can extend the duration of Rip, much like Festering Strike will extend duration of existing DK diseases, and in those cases, the DoT retains its originally snapshotted player stats. If the same holds true for Serpent Sting and Chimera Shot above, then it appears that if the ability doesn't actually apply the DoT but only refreshes the duration or extends an existing DoT, then the DoT's power remains unchanged. For abilities that actually apply the DoT, e.g., Rake on a target that already has Rake, the DoT gets a new snapshot of the player's stats.

Does anyone with an alt of the appropriate class feel sufficiently interested to test this theory? I'm just trying to improve the way DoTs are tracked in Ovale so that @aggixx can write better action lists.

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:50 pm

I can ask a few folks I know to have a test of this when I get home. Should be a few hours.

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Jeshu » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:50 pm

I've managed to find places that cited a blue post by Ghostcrawler (dead links to PTR forums, unfortunately) that DoTs in 5.2 snapshot crit. I'm going to assume mastery also falls into that category, pending actual testing.

Interestingly, the only DoTs that don't snapshot using the same rules as all other DoTs are priest DoTs and only in conjunction with the 2pT15 bonus, so that will require special handling in Ovale.

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:07 pm

Mastery, SP and AP have always been snapshotted for DoTs. The addition of Crit was new for this patch.

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:08 pm

Also pretty sure Haste for caster DoT's is snapshotted.

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby aggixx » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:45 am

Jeshu wrote:I wonder if the general rule of thumb should be amended.


There is no rule of thumb as far as I know. Shred adds ticks to the dot and doesn't resnapshot, Festering Strike adds ticks to the dot and doesn't resnapshot. Touch of Chaos and Fel Flame add ticks to the dot and do resnapshot.

My understanding is they choose whether or not an ability resnapshots on an individually basis and abilities that perpetually refresh a DoT tend to resnapshot, Rip, for whatever reason, being the exception to that rule.

Jeshu wrote:A hunter's Chimera Shot will refresh the duration of Serpent Sting to it's full duration as well. I wonder if Serpent Sting behaves like Rip and keeps its original stats when refreshed by Chimera Shot in this way.


Could be wrong but I don't believe it does. I believe Rip is the only full refresh mechanic that does not resnapshot.

And the only thing that isn't in the snapshot state of a dot is Crit Multiplier which behaves dynamically, everything else (AP, SP, crit, haste, mastery if applicable) snapshots and as far as I know there are no exceptions to this.

E: Cobra Shot and Chimera Shot both resnapshot.
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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:27 pm

As of 5.2 the Crit modifier is snapshotted now for all dots. They did this to make some of the caster trinkets usable for some classes.

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:10 pm

Crit chance is snapshotted. Crit damage multiplier is not.

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Jeshu » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:34 pm

Okay, then Ovale will need script language support for describing when a DoT snapshots player stats, instead of being able to rely on general rule.

Thanks for the help, everyone!

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Frozzenfire » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:06 pm

ok to make things clear, when you have a doc+rune buffed rip when boss is below 25% and you then refresh the rip with FB, does the rip keep the doc+rune buff?

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:51 pm

Yes it does. It will also keep TF (15%), Trinket procs, and Potion stats as long as you keep refreshing with FB.

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Ptah » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:01 am

Just for clarification...

Let's assume that I apply "weak" Rip (no TF, Potion, trinket....) at 26%, and after that (below 25%) I get some Trinket procs, use TF and Potion... To get the "stronger" Rip should I just refresh it with FB, or do I have to re-apply 5CP RIP even below 25%?

Based on the info from the topic, I assume the new application of 5CP Rip is mandatory to get it stronger for the rest of the fight... It that correct?

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Re: FB refreshes Rip without updating stats

Postby Vami » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:57 am

Ptah wrote:Just for clarification...

Let's assume that I apply "weak" Rip (no TF, Potion, trinket....) at 26%, and after that (below 25%) I get some Trinket procs, use TF and Potion... To get the "stronger" Rip should I just refresh it with FB, or do I have to re-apply 5CP RIP even below 25%?

Based on the info from the topic, I assume the new application of 5CP Rip is mandatory to get it stronger for the rest of the fight... It that correct?


Yes, you need to apply Rip again. Using Ferocious Bite would just extend your previous, non-buffed Rip.

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