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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Cetlysm » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:55 pm

is catus4 still the latest version?
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby raffy » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:19 am

Cetlysm wrote:is catus4 still the latest version?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4567#p16498
I got a request to make a sticky thread, so there will be one soon.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Masticor » Wed May 08, 2013 11:36 am

Hi everybody!

TLDR at the bottom

Long time reader, first time poster here ;)

I was not sure whether to put this in the Simulationcraft Thread or here but seeing as I also have a trinket question I will try my luck here:


I was playing around with simulationcraft and did my own simulation to see what Stat weights it would give me. I got this:

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(HotW Build, 2 RPPM Trinekts i.e. Renataki 528 & Vicious T. of Shado-blegh, with Legendary Meta but no rune yet)

My question is: Can I use those weights for reforging and regeming Addons/Sites?


I ask because usually I would almost blindly use the stats provided by the OP in the first post but it does say that those weights are for T15 heroic gear. Which I don't have. But I am hearing from a lot of people that they prefere haste because of the increased legendary meta gem which I find odd.
On a couple of small scale tests on target dummys, heroics and raids I haven't seen any change in the amount of proccs or the damage ratio of those procs. I tried regming/reforging and decreased my haste by about 4.000 haste and the number of proccs and dmg ratio didn't change. Is this normal? And, disregarding the meta, when should you/I start to prefer haste?


Trinketquestion: This is a short one: Why is Renataki heroic and 522 almost equal while the 528 version is ranking 5 spots lower on the trinket list? I know the diffrence is minimal and that procc chances vary depending on item level but shouldn't it scale linear or is this just within a certain margin of error?


TLDR:

Are the stat weights that Simulationcraft calculates trustworthy/good enough to "blindly" use with reforge/regeming Sites and Addons?
Does haste actually/noticably change the proccs of the legendary meta gem?
When is the point reached where haste becomes the prefreable sec stat? (without rune)
Why is the Renataki 522 Version worse than the 522 version?

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed May 08, 2013 1:12 pm

A few things.
0. Nothing about Feral can be blindly followed.
1. The Shadopan trinket is not RPPM.
2. The 528 Renataki is better than the 522 version. It is something odd with Simcraft.


It would be helpful if you posted your armory link. The stat weights given are relative to your gear. Guessing because you have the Meta Gem and an RPPM trinket it is suggesting you should get more Haste. Currently per point Haste is better then Mastery for you. However that is only on your current stats. If you give yourself more Haste then Mastery and run SimC again you will see Mastery jump out ahead. I am guessing if you prioritize Haste over Crit, with Mastery still your best stat you will be in good shape (till you get Rune).

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Wed May 08, 2013 2:44 pm

Using the weights in the first post in AMR or WoWReforge or ReforgeLite will likely get you fairly good results (probably within 0.5% of optimal at worst) but they might not be perfectly ideal.

Haste does directly increase meta and RPPM trinket procs, but will it be noticeable? Eh, probably not. Doesn't mean it isn't there.

If you want to know if stacking haste is better than stacking mastery you're best off creating two characters in SimC (one stacked haste and one stacked mastery) and sim them against each other. Like Tinder said, the values are only if you add a modest amount of stats from the point your character is at now, and if you swing a massive chunk of stats out of mastery and into haste you may find that haste is no longer quite as valuable.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Stenhaldi » Wed May 08, 2013 6:32 pm

Masticor wrote:Trinketquestion: This is a short one: Why is Renataki heroic and 522 almost equal while the 528 version is ranking 5 spots lower on the trinket list? I know the diffrence is minimal and that procc chances vary depending on item level but shouldn't it scale linear or is this just within a certain margin of error?

Most likely an artifact of the action list. Unless I'm thinking of an older version, the action list doesn't use any special handling for the increasing-over-time nature of that trinket proc, and instead just refreshes rip when it would be 15% better than the current rip and rake when it would be 12% better. The 528 version is probably exceeding some threshold to cause weaker and/or more frequent refreshes.

Incidentally, this is also likely the reason Renataki's is valued at about the same strength as Bad Juju. I think it's generally accepted that Renataki's is substantially better than Bad Juju due to the ability to game it with bleeds (a 10-stack of blades is about as strong as a re-origination proc).

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Wed May 08, 2013 7:11 pm

Right, the Catus rotation probably handles Renataki's proc much better than SimC.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby raffy » Wed May 08, 2013 7:21 pm

aggixx wrote:Right, the Catus rotation probably handles Renataki's proc much better than SimC.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... eroic2.png
My 535 analysis shows a 1500 DPS advantage to Juju. While the Renataki alone is stronger, it has a lower likelihood of good alignment. But your correct that the action list should try to wait as long as it can if a stacking proc is active.

My raid hasn't seen a Renataki, so I haven't been actually able to play with one yet :(

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Masticor » Thu May 09, 2013 10:17 am

Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/eredar/Odo/simple

I am sorry but I have to post this step by step because I am getting flagged for spam.

Edit:
I hope I am not hijaking this thread as a "Help me with my dps thread". I am trying to understand the simcalc weights but I am getting a clearer understanding thanks to you guys.

And thanks for correcting my assumption about Vicious Talisman beeing RPPS. I will try siming with the two different setups but I am liking the idea of Mastery > Haste > Crit.

About Renataki, that thing .... will drive me to insanity, it is kind of a double edge sword because it can procc at times where it will make my dps explode and other times it will not show itself for half the fight, preferably the last 25% where I want to put up one really strong Rip with everything active. Do you guys refresh rip at 10 stacks of the procc no matter what? I am a little it unsure how to handle the procc. I know that, if possible, I should try to put up every bleed with a 9-10 procc. But what do you do when rip is about to fall off, and the procc just startet and is at 2 or 5? Wait to 10? Apply and refresh? Apply and Bite at 10? OT: Does Ovale handle that well?

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Silvertip » Thu May 09, 2013 2:54 pm

As Masticore stated: Sorry if this is the wrong place to discuss this

I also am finding Renatiki frustrating for the almost exactly the same reasons described above. Any help/insight you guys could provide on getting the most out of this particular trink would be appreciated greatly!
Thanx,
D

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu May 09, 2013 3:03 pm

Frustrating is the nature of all proc trinkets. You will have strings of "I AM A GOD!", and strings of "THIS SUCK BALLS". Renataki's like DoC has the biggest up side for the most effort. It also has the biggest DPS swing (poor luck with this will hurt worse then poor luck with Bad JuJu).

It becomes a choice like DoC. You choose the one you feel most comfortable dealing with. It also takes some practice to get used to. If you want the most consistent proc stick with the ShadoPan trinket. It won't give you as much of that swing, but it is easier to deal with.

Personally I have preferred Renatakis. However with my current gear I have been forced to use Bad JuJu because of my EXTREAM amount of Expertise. I did get the Magara neck last night though so I should be able to swap back soon.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Masticor » Thu May 09, 2013 3:50 pm

Interesting comparison with DoC, I do like Renataki in the end but I am not confident enough in my cat to use DoC. But I think it's worse than most procc trinkets because of the timeframe. Most proccs are at least 10 to 15 Seconds but have a stable Buff like + xxxx Agility. You can refresh all your dots at the beginning or at the End, Rake even both. But Renataki is a hassle because of the limited time frame. You only have 2 Seconds at max agility which is enough for 2 bleeds, mainly rip and rake. But facotring in lag, reaction time and some encounter design where the boss might run or charge away you widen that timeframe to apply bleeds as soon as 8 or 9 Stacks to get more time.

I think I made it sound more cimplicated than it needs to be, all I am trying to say is that the period in which you can/should apply your bleeds is a lot shorter in my opinion.

If anyone could share their strategy or a rule of thumb that would be great. Something like "Always dot up at 9/10, never FB" or "don't update when xx seconds left on y"

PS: Does Droodfocus and it's Attackpower Dot/Lights track this? How about Leafkillers Script?

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Thu May 09, 2013 4:01 pm

I wouldn't say encounter design or reaction time really play in at all: If the boss is going to be running away from you before you reach 10 stacks then clearly you don't want to wait for ten stacks, and there isn't anything to react to if you're watching the proc as it progress. I could see latency being a small concern, but you do have a whole extra 1 second of time to work with (it only takes 1 second to do 2 GCDs if you're ready the second it hits 10 stacks).

Realistically you can't refresh your bleeds every single time you get to 10 stacks (perhaps you can with Rake, not so much with Rip) but the logic isn't terrible complicated: If your bleeds fall off during the proc it's probably worth refreshing right away, but otherwise you just wait as long as you can possibly wait during the proc to refresh them. I know it is worth refreshing rake at more than 1 or 2 points during the proc to take full advantage of it, but I don't have the trinket nor have I worked with that sort of nitty gritty proc handling in SimC or Ovale to really recommend anything.

Leafkiller's script does handle it in rather basic way (recommends to clip if a new rake is x% better than the current one), but it could be improved a little bit by adding some trinket specific logic.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu May 09, 2013 4:58 pm

aggixx wrote:Leafkiller's script does handle it in rather basic way (recommends to clip if a new rake is x% better than the current one), but it could be improved a little bit by adding some trinket specific logic.

Either Ovale or the script have a difficult time figuring out the % difference. It does seem to have the most issues with a Rune proc. Often times I have Rune up and DroodFocus is giving me a 65% increase but the script still wants me to FB. It does handle Agility proc's more consistently so just keep an eye on your bleed ratios and what trinkets you have active.

Like Aggixx said you really don't want to just go for Gaming the proc. If it lines up great. If it doesn't it's still better to keep damage going even if it's slightly less. Ovale is a great starting point, but it is still only reacting to a set list of expectations based on 100% uptime with no movement. As you learn each encounter you should be able to start to figure ways out to optimize your damage that aren't suggested by Ovale. This will also change based on your guilds strat as you may have different jobs and expectations.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Thu May 09, 2013 5:48 pm

I should add that I have a small change in the rake code pending based on some new features in Ovale to support, once that's in Rake clipping during Renataki's procs should be quite fluid even without custom logic.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Masticor » Thu May 09, 2013 6:28 pm

Ok good to know it has a basic handle on it. I think at some point, I don't know if it was ovale or Droodfocus, one of those two suggested to refresh every 2 proccs. Not sure though.

About the way you described the procc handling: That is pretty much what I do. If I have 4 Combopoints, my bleeds are running out and I am at 7 Stacks I will simply wait and then refresh in reversed order of importence to give the strongest bleed the strongest buff. Only time I start to think about it is when I am about to refresh my bleeds and the trinket is at 4 stacks. At that moment I just put up my bleeds right away because waiting for stack 9/10 without bleeds should (?) be a dps loss and reapplying the bleeds at 10 might be too soon or with some bad luck not even possible.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Thu May 09, 2013 7:28 pm

Masticor wrote:At that moment I just put up my bleeds right away because waiting for stack 9/10 without bleeds should (?)


Not 100% certain what the right answer is, downtime is almost always bad though so my intuition would be that waiting is the wrong answer. Obviously it depends on how many seconds you would be waiting, like waiting 2 to 3 seconds to get a TF'd Rip is reasonable so I imagine it would be similar for Renataki's.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Masticor » Fri May 10, 2013 9:48 am

Yeah I don't think it's easy to say, I sometimes do wait a second or two longer if I see everything lining up i.e. Stack 9/10 and TF about be ready again. Usually thats pretty much worth the wait unless you wait too long.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby CrazyCatLady » Fri May 31, 2013 10:13 am

Hi guys, I have a question about upgrading trinkets, now that it's available again. I'm a few vp short of capping @ 3k so I need to make a decision on what to upgrade.

My armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... e/advanced

As you can see, I've already done 2/2 on weapon and normal RoR, 1/2 on legs and 1/2 on Renataki (I was @ cap last week as well and had to do something to spend them). We're working on H Jin'rokh (first kill this week, no helm, ring or trinket dropped and no luck with coin again) and H Ji-Kun. I've used a coin every week since ToT opened but as yet have not seen the helm from Jin'rokh drop even once. I gave up the tier chest token to our mage this week since he only had 2pc and I already have 4pc. Even if I got the helm I can't equip it until I get a chest token so not a huge deal, there's always next week (/fingers crossed for vanquisher).

My question is, should I go ahead and 2/2 legs and/or Renataki? Upgrade something else? I also have the SPA trinket available, 0/2 atm, should I be using that instead and do 2/2 with it? I tried working it out in Catus (apologies if I should post this question there instead) with the SPA trinket but I wasn't able to come up with a reforge that I was satisfied with.

Maybe I shouldn't be stressing so much about what to spend vp on since they lowered the cost to upgrade. I'm just torn on spending vp to upgrade things that will, hopefully, be replaced very soon with something much better and it seems counterproductive. I know it would be a huge upgrade in agility to buy the SPA chest but I'm already having issues with excess hit/expertise over-cap so that doesn't seem like a viable option either.

Can someone help me decide? Thanks in advance!

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:10 am

Looks like you already made your decision, but I would say you made strong choices. Always try to keep your weapons and trinkets fully upgraded since they will (almost) always be the best bang for your buck (and if they're not it'll be close). After that, legs chest and helm are typically going to be the strongest choices, and after that tier shoulders or tier gloves are usually strong candidates.

The main thing you want to avoid is upgrading an item that will give you wasted stat (if you're stuck over the hit cap, a piece with hit on it) unless it's one of those first 5 items I listed (weapon, trinket, helm, chest, legs) since those have such large budgets that they'll probably a fairly strong choice anyway.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby CrazyCatLady » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:15 pm

Yes, thank you for the reply Aggixx. I did go ahead and do legs and trinket 2/2 even though they're only normal and will be (/clawscrossed) replaced soon with heroic versions.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Sibylle » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:57 am

On my new feral, I currently have Relic of Xuen once-upgraded and Bad Juju LFR (502). When I get the Rune, do I really replace Bad Juju with it? According to the HotW list, Relic is better - just wanted to confirm.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:39 pm

Yeah, doesn't sound unreasonable. Relic is quite strong for it's item level.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Ayleena » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:40 pm

I have a couple questions.

I just completed the cloak quest and have all my rep at exalted, so I don't have much more reason to do LFR other than VP. My guild isn't at normal Lei Shen yet, so I am wondering if I should still be going for LFR Rune? I currently have Renataki's and Vicious Talisman, and I'm at ilevel 524 with DoC. It seems like the list on the first page has all the Runes 1-2-3. Just making sure.

My other question is about upgrades - I am wondering if we could get an updated list with 510-530-536-etc levels in the comparison. The reason I ask is there seems to be a point where Juju overtakes Renataki's and maybe I should go for it if I upgrade it to 530.

Thanks for the great work and great info in this thread!

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Ekthelion » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:47 am

I think Raffy stated few times in his generated files that Juju (assuming the same ilvl) looks better in average but Renataki can give you higher maximum dps. And about Rune - yes, you still want to get even the lfr version. It won't proc as often as the others but you should feel the difference anyway.
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