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Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

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Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Whitepaw » Fri May 31, 2013 4:31 am

Disclaimer: I don't raid and my only experience as a Feral in MoP is from LFR.

My (limited) 5.3 experience tells me that we are very viable as a dps spec right now. We have good, sustained dps and we can build in burst with talents, if needed. We can also provide utility and even some nice healing, although going full-out utility (HotW) will result in a small dps loss. Our survivability is also good.

However, I also feel that the latest buff to Savage Roar suggests that we don't really scale that well with gear. At the same time, it seems that we are fairly reliant on certain trinket procs (RoR especially comes to mind). Let's say we don't get such an insane trinket in the next patch - then what? Will it then be game over for Feral dps? And what changes do we need in our spec to become a bit more independent of insane trinket procs (DBW was the same situation - only then it was the ArP cap we needed)?

It also concerns me that so many bosses these days turn so much during the fight - and so fast! It's especially annoying in ToT, but they just move a lot more than in Cata. Fairly annoying when our primary combo-builder must be delivered from behind!

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby feralminded » Fri May 31, 2013 10:45 am

Whitepaw wrote:Disclaimer: I don't raid and my only experience as a Feral in MoP is from LFR.

My (limited) 5.3 experience tells me that we are very viable as a dps spec right now. We have good, sustained dps and we can build in burst with talents, if needed. We can also provide utility and even some nice healing, although going full-out utility (HotW) will result in a small dps loss. Our survivability is also good.

However, I also feel that the latest buff to Savage Roar suggests that we don't really scale that well with gear. At the same time, it seems that we are fairly reliant on certain trinket procs (RoR especially comes to mind). Let's say we don't get such an insane trinket in the next patch - then what? Will it then be game over for Feral dps? And what changes do we need in our spec to become a bit more independent of insane trinket procs (DBW was the same situation - only then it was the ArP cap we needed)?

It also concerns me that so many bosses these days turn so much during the fight - and so fast! It's especially annoying in ToT, but they just move a lot more than in Cata. Fairly annoying when our primary combo-builder must be delivered from behind!


A bit of a nitpick but we now build combo points primarily with mangle and with the way combo points only continue to increase in value this isn't likely to change any time soon.

Either way the savage roar buff wasn't really enough. I consistently rank in our raids, usually the highest ranks among our raid, and I am at best middling for our mDPS unless we're talking heroic tortos (on normal bats now die too quickly for me to do meaningful dps). I am still way behind DKs and Rogues which does not bode well for future scaling.


The primary issues I see right now
- No useful burst on demand. This isn't truly hurting us much in ToT but there are classically fights where it hurts (Garalon). This has always been a black eye for us but is amplified by our middling dps.
- Terrible on target switch fights (somewhat helped with symbiosis on a lock), but this is the nature of the beast when it comes to combo point classes.
- Annoying as hell to dps optimally on 3-6 targets. Our sweet spot is 1-2 or 7+. This is a personal nit-pick but it really is annoying.
- Our AoE burst is even worse than our single target burst. This really shows up in a lot of fights like lei-shen where the adds die too fast for our normal aoe rotation to matter much.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby baver » Fri May 31, 2013 10:47 am

Dont think dps will be a big problem for ferals, even without the buff i dident feel i fall behind to much.

What im afraid of is that when we get new trinkets we will probably go allout mastery again, and that means our legendary and trinket will be sooo much worse then most other classes.
One other problem is that already now with hero + berzerk our engery is capped (even with ror procc) and if they dont fix that somehow our burst at the opening will be a joke compare to meny other classes (already doing like half of a mage/warlock i would say :\ )

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri May 31, 2013 7:04 pm

feralminded wrote:- Our AoE burst is even worse than our single target burst. This really shows up in a lot of fights like lei-shen where the adds die too fast for our normal aoe rotation to matter much.

Feral has amazing AoE burst. Just pool energy for the add spawn and then thrash, swipe, TF, swipe, swipe (or thrash, TF, swipe, swipe depending on how much time you have -- remember TF boosts swipe's crit chance). In addition to being among the strongest AoE burst (behind warlocks and tanks), it also costs very little single-target damage. So for example, I'm typically near the top in ball lightning damage while also being near the top in Lei Shen damage.

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Sorcerer » Fri May 31, 2013 7:35 pm

Well it also depends on raid ability. Hard to compare tortos style where we are among best DPS class and lets say a stacked Lei-Shen when orbs can litterally die in GCD before thrash can tick.

I guess I said before 5.2 that our tranqulity needed revamp, the change gladly hit 5.3 which was very needed tbh.

Time to rework berserk.

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri May 31, 2013 8:21 pm

Sorcerer wrote:Well it also depends on raid ability. Hard to compare tortos style where we are among best DPS class and lets say a stacked Lei-Shen when orbs can litterally die in GCD before thrash can tick.

They typically die before thrash can tick more than once, but that's fine because swipe still does good damage (especially when it has ~80% crit chance due to the set bonus). When I said feral had strong burst AoE, I had Lei Shen in mind specifically.

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Steakbomb » Fri May 31, 2013 9:12 pm

I think 5.3 helped a lot. It was a pretty well done buff. Something I would like to see done is possibly improve our energy regen a bit so that SotF is a requirement. We have a Burst Damage talent in Incarnation, just nobody uses it because over the course of a fight SotF is better.

Single target our dps has always been up there, it's just fights like Horridon that make me want to cry in a corner. All these ranged are multi dotting everything and the rest of the melee cleave the adds but using swipe or thrash on 2 targets is pointless. The only way to stay up there on the meters is to put all bleeds up on 1 target and switch to the next or run around and rake everything which is an overall dps loss to the raid as you need the main 3 adds on that fight to die asap.

I think part of the issue is that there isn't a large data pool for ferals. Druids in general are played a lot but there aren't many high end ferals around. There are VERY few in the 10 man scene. While 25 mans run ferals a lot more the data pool that blizzard has to go on isn't very big overall. For instance my guild just killed H Megaera 10 last night and there are only 43 feral parses in 10 man.

Most Ferals that I have seen are into PvP more than PvE. This could be because the Feral PvE spec isn't the easiest thing in the world to play effectively.

Also, 1 thing that can help a lot of ferals is to run HotW instead of DoC. DoC is clearly the better spec if you are able to play the spec very well but with fights that have you running around all the time, HotW clearly is better as you won't miss putting up a bleed with DoC buff. I used to run DoC on every fight but have since switched to HotW as my primary spec on almost every fight. HotW is easier to run so you can keep your bleeds up better and you also have an extra Tranq to fall back on which in Heroic level raiding is almost a must have for some fights.

The other thing is that with your experience in LFR, I would assume you are in LFR gear and there are going to be players in your LFR group that are in full normal/heroic gear that are in the LFR to get offspec gear or in my case Titan Runestones. If you compare yourself to those players then yes you would be a lot lower on the meters. You can't expect to be in LFR gear and topping the meters every time.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-wbq6ob2vlzupqqfl/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z0zj25okmmk27gvp/

Here are my guild logs from last week. As you can see that I am on top or near the top on almost every fight that I was in for.

I think 5.3 definitely helped bring us to where we need to be.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby aggixx » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:46 am

Steakbomb wrote:Something I would like to see done is possibly improve our energy regen a bit so that SotF is a requirement.

People don't take SotF because we "need" it to fulfill our rotation's energy requirement, they take it because it's higher DPS. It has nothing to do with the fact that the talent provides energy and everything to do with the tier being balanced poorly. Giving us extra energy regen somehow would just serve to change the spec from what it is.

Steakbomb wrote:The other thing is that with your experience in LFR, I would assume you are in LFR gear and there are going to be players in your LFR group that are in full normal/heroic gear that are in the LFR to get offspec gear or in my case Titan Runestones. If you compare yourself to those players then yes you would be a lot lower on the meters. You can't expect to be in LFR gear and topping the meters every time.

Most people don't understand that to get an accurate gauge of class balance, not only do you need to be intimately familiar with your own skill level at your own class, but you also need to be intimately familiar with the skill level of everyone else in your raid group. Gear is also a factor you have to consider as well.

That being said, there is absolutely no way you can get any remotely accurate gauge of class balance from LFR. I've raided both Hardcore and Semi-hardcore progression this tier, and with this patch I have never been more confused about class balance in my entire time playing this game.

The only conclusion I've seem to come to is that Feral definitely has a higher than average "skillcap" and that Blizzard seems to try to balance us so that a fairly good player is competitive (eg middle of the pack). I feel that if you're an excellent feral you can thrive when Blizzard feels that we're where they want us to be. That being said, I'm quite happy with where we are now post-5.3, but I would never take my opinion as a remotely accurate representation of class balance and there are very few people who should think otherwise.

One thing that still stands out to me is that this change only serves to mask the issues that this tiers encounter designed stressed in us prior to the buff. While our damage is quite competitive, we definitely still have weaknesses, and while that's not necessarily a bad thing I feel like that comes into play this tier more so for us than many other classes and specs.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Whitepaw » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:32 am

A bit of a nitpick but we now build combo points primarily with mangle and with the way combo points only continue to increase in value this isn't likely to change any time soon.


As I understand it, the reason to use Mangle as a combo-builder right now is because of 2 set Tier 15 bonus. Shred is still doing more damage and should be (slightly) superior without that 2 set bonus. So, we probably would revert to Shred being the optimal combo-builder when we're not wearing Tier 15 anymore.

Btw, reading your logs, it seems that you use Rake as your combo-builder. Isn't that a dps-loss compared to using Mangle or Shred? Personally, I use Mangle or Shred, unless I have a RoR-proc with Mastery; then I use Rake.

Edit: Seems you do this as well - your RoR just procs a lot more than mine! :D

The other thing is that with your experience in LFR, I would assume you are in LFR gear and there are going to be players in your LFR group that are in full normal/heroic gear that are in the LFR to get offspec gear or in my case Titan Runestones. If you compare yourself to those players then yes you would be a lot lower on the meters. You can't expect to be in LFR gear and topping the meters every time.


Actually, I do pretty well on the meters in LFR - normally a bit above my gear level, compared to the rest of the raid. And I agree that the buff helped.

What I am questioning is: Did it help enough? Or do the devs have to buff Savage Roar in every patch, because we scale less than other dps specs? And bear (pun intended!) in mind that buffs to Savage Roar are inddirect nerfs to the Guardians going cat form to dps in certain parts of the encounters.

Personally, I see it as a design-flaw to make us that dependent on a self-buff - even though I am rather good at keeping it up. Keeping that design is an inddirect nerf to Feral in PvP, as it acts as a pre-condition to do any kind of sustained pressure on our enemies. On top of that, we also back-load our damage, as we are highly dependent on having Rip up. These two conditions are the reason why we lack the burst when changing targets. In my opinion, we should only have one of the now two preconditions in effect. I'd like that to be Rip - bringing us back to the design in Cataclysm. I like the DoC design, from a Feral perspective. It adds the complexity we lacked in Cataclysm.

A way to make us scale much better could be to lower the energy cost on Shred. Lower it to 35 energy and keep the damage values on our abilities as they are right now - it's not like we're tearing through the dps charts as it is today anyway. We seem to be balanced, albeit on the lower side, but some of the other classes are clearly OP (hai fire mages! oh, and most of the tank specs as well).

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Steakbomb » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:08 am

Yea my RoR procs alot but I would assume I am in higher gear than you lol.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Whitepaw » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:35 am

Yea my RoR procs alot but I would assume I am in higher gear than you lol.


The important part is that your RoR is ilvl 530 while mine is 510. So your's should proc more.

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby aggixx » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:36 pm

Whitepaw wrote:As I understand it, the reason to use Mangle as a combo-builder right now is because of 2 set Tier 15 bonus. Shred is still doing more damage and should be (slightly) superior without that 2 set bonus. So, we probably would revert to Shred being the optimal combo-builder when we're not wearing Tier 15 anymore.


I think it does play a part but it doesn't have as big of an effect as you may think. SotF and DoC both also heavily encourage increased CP generation as they also trigger based on the number of CP we spend, and that's the primary reason. If we end up going back to Shred in 5.4 it'll likely be because we have more energy than we know what to do with, not because of the loss of the 2 piece bonus. I'm already seeing times where I have so much energy outside of berserk and TF where my TF is actually getting pushed back just because I have such a hard time burning the energy.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby feralminded » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:09 am

At a risk of waxing too whiny I am still completely unimpressed with our DPS. Anyone who thinks we're "ok" is either deluded or selling themselves short. For the past couple of weeks I have been parsing consistently the highest by a significant margin (as in, ranking the highest) on the fights I do "right" and I have yet to "win the meters" in our raid. Of notable insult was this week on council I pulled a 5th place parse and still got smoked by our warlock who didn't rank at all by 30k dps (that is I ranked 5th in the world for ferals with a 220k effort, he ranked >150th in the world for warlocks with a 250k effort). Even on tortos which is supposed to be "the feral druid" fight, the DK, rogue, and lock all have higher rank limits. That means when played evenly and effectively I can only hope to be 4th place in the raid, all skill aside. Compound that with the fact that in order to rank on plenty of these fights I feel like I have to jump through ridiculous, ultimately cheesy hoops (soul swap on Mageara makes me die inside).

I've been feral since Ulduar and I literally thrived during ICC when I could consistently rank top 50 in the world for almost every fight AND top the meters and hang my hat on it because I was working my john madden ass off to get there and felt I earned it. Now it seems I have to resort to cheap, ugly tactics to parse whatsoever and the only reason why I even wind up in the top 3 of our meter is because the other players in my raid are either too lazy or unwilling to resort to their own class' cheap/ugly cheese tactics required to rank.

I really REALLY like the high skill cap on feral, in fact that's why I play it at all ... however I feel playing in the most skillful manner (uptime on abilities and more powerful bleeds) doesn't yield the best results (highest dps in a fight). Hell I ranked #5 on Council almost exclusively through rake and thrash spam ... that's not skillful it's just annoying as fuck. It's not a very fun playstyle at all, tab-targetting and trying to keep up 1CP savage roar but this is the name of the game whenver we have to deal with 3-6 targets and it's honestly just gross. Perhaps that's my big bitch, how completely unsavory our mid-sized-pack rotation is. Any more and it's easy mode thrash/swipe spam and any less we get to work some John Madden magic but that mid-sized pack which I have seen happen now in too many fights is just seriously unfun for us.

Either way I know that I hate working so hard to achieve so little. I'm not "quitting my druid" any time soon but I WOULD appreciate us getting some real love sooner than later. We have a couple of things going for us, the biggest one I see is survivability. I firmly believe we are easily the most survivable melee, even moreso than rogues. They get to cheese a few mechanics but with the massive clutch of feral cds (including bear form and symbiosis options), self healing, and mobility nobody can survive like we can (I've used SI on plenty of mechanics to squeeze in DPS when everyone is running and hiding). That said right now a rogue or DK who checks out at 10% health left on the boss still has an all too serious shot at out-DPSing us so what's the point of surviving?

p.s. I'm sorry for the QQ, just putting all this effort into attempting to play this class at a very high level leaves me feeling fairly unrewarded these days. I long for the days of ICC when sure I put in major effort but yielded major reward. Right now I'm just "the guy who can tranq better than the healers". meh.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby baver » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:03 pm

I dont agree that our dps is that bad, the only fight i feelt like "why the fuck should we have a feral here?" was council and that was for all melee, all other bosses i dident feel like i drag down the progress. sure now when its all about ranking and doing everything wrong from what you should do to kill a boss we might be behind. But do you realy care if you can rank against other classes on farm raids that ppl just aoe and cleave other targets just to wh**** dps?

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby ShmooDude » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:02 pm

Honestly "cleave/multitarget" fights are our only weakness since the buff. On pure ST damage (which is rare at this point) we're very strong and on burst aoe we're also very strong, sustained aoe is a little weaker but still strong. We are defiantly weak on "cleave/multitarget" fights but honestly most classes have a weakness like that (warlocks seem to be the big exception to the rule, they're strong at everything this xp).

As far as ranking goes, that's because there's WAY WAY less high skill ferals vs high skill warlocks (or really any other pure dps class). Most 25s bring several of each pure while only one feral (if that). That's going to make it way easier for us to rank. Also council is one of our worst fights compared to one of the warlocks best (they excel at multitarget).

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Sco ... 0/default/

We're 3rd on that (however much faith you want to put in that). We also have about half the parses of a single warlock spec. In the top 100, we run a little more middle of the pack, which is still not "bad." The aim is for all classes to be "middle of the pack" which means either we'll probably get another slight buff or those at the top will get a slight nerf. Also keep in mind that top 100 is not necessarily the best measure to compare different classes from because different classes have different levels of RNG. Ours is probably one of the lower RNG specs meaning while our highs are not as high, our lows are also not as low. Especially compared to say a fire mage who is almost all RNG (just had one of our mages quit because of just how RNG their spec is; he said he can be anywhere from first to last on dps depending on crits even up to about a minute into the fight).

Overall I'm pretty satisfied with where we're at. Do I wish we had some better options for cleave/multitarget. Yes, but I'll live with it.

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Steakbomb » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:04 am

Looking at where we are parsing vs another class is almost useless. Every fight is different and every class is different. We are one of the strongest single target specs in the game but we class the cleave. But we also bring a tranq to a fight and we can heal ourselves in a pinch (during rampage on H Meg for example).

Another important thing to note is that with parses, every guild uses a diff strat and utilizes their feral in a different way.

A prime example is my guild uses a Brewmaster to just kite the bats on Tortos H so myself and the DPS DK that we have stay on the boss full time where as the top parsing ferals are AoE'ing the bats down. So with this it will be impossible for me to rank high no matter what I do.

I would have to disagree a bit on Council not being a very good fight for us. It all depends on your guild strat as well. My guild uses 2 tanks and 2 melee. When someone gets Frostbite on them they stand with melee for 8 seconds and then jump to the tanks for 8 secs and etc. We also have myself on the empowered boss 100% until it drops or if a Twisted Fate is out. So I don't really get hurt a bunch doing this.

When looking at parses, always remember that 95% of the time, the top parse for a fight is usually someone cheesing the meters in some way just to parse high. Take a look at the top parse for H Ji-Kun. The feral that has it got 9 slime buffs on him to help destroy the meters and the rest of the raid suffered on damage because of it.

I think feral damage is pretty good at the moment, but I would love a reliable cleave like being able to Glyph Mangle to hit more than 1 target or something like that.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby aggixx » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:06 am

Steakbomb wrote:that we have stay on the boss full time where as the top parsing ferals are AoE'ing the bats down. So with this it will be impossible for me to rank high no matter what I do.

That's not exactly true. It is almost impossible (or at least really damn hard) to get a really strong parse on Tortos (like top 5) if your tank is not kiting. Most of the very top parses are due to incidental cleave (read: Thrash) onto a giant pack of bats while your tank is kiting them around.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:28 am

It's super late, and between progression and work (2 months of 6+ days a week) I have not been able to put together a proper response. I will say that I will shoot the next person who talks about ICC being a glory day. If I am not able to have 5 minutes to myself by the Feral Round table I will explain why I will shoot said person on the show. Other wise I will compose my thoughts here. Have a nice morning.

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby feralminded » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:18 am

Tinderhoof wrote:It's super late, and between progression and work (2 months of 6+ days a week) I have not been able to put together a proper response. I will say that I will shoot the next person who talks about ICC being a glory day. If I am not able to have 5 minutes to myself by the Feral Round table I will explain why I will shoot said person on the show. Other wise I will compose my thoughts here. Have a nice morning.


I will be VERY interested to hear this because I honestly never had more fun playing my feral. Perhaps it was because this was when I was putting the most time into the game and was able to consistently A: Do fights "right", B: Rank top 3 in the 25, C: Rank top 50 in the world.

I understand if people rankle their noses at such a focus on "ranking" or "dps meters". I am quite aware of how this agitates people and believe me as a raid leader it agitates me too ... but the simple fact is I have been consistently the subjectively "best" DPS player in my raid for some time now and I have never seen my name at the top of that list and honestly its rare to be top 3. I know the buff JUST landed but still on most fights I'm behind the lock, rogue, and dk. That's 3 classes out of 11 who I can out-play but cannot beat. That's mighty frustrating, specially then to come in and see people say we're in a good spot. Not sure how you can say that and take pride in what you do. If I am the best player in the raid by any significant margin I expect for it to be evident without having to go into some long discussion about how "XYZ class is OP and my class is UP in this scenario that blizzard seems to put in tons of fights."

I'm not new to any of this, I've been playing competitively since vanilla and have a ton of competitive gaming experience under my belt (mostly FPS/RTS). I'm not some young hot-head trying to inflate my epeen and plea for sympathy (oh woe is me, I can rank and no one knows ... boohoo). While I understand the nature of these forums is to recoil at the faintest scent of epeen and I am more than aware I am fairly new here my concern is not epeen-related, but rather perception related. Despite what any of you may like to believe perception IS reality and my job as a Raid leader/GM is to be perceived as an example of excellence if I am to expect my players to also strive for it and the simple truth is when it comes to humans the "proof is in the pudding", so to speak. Yes plenty of players will see through the veneer of a DPS meter ... eventually ... but human psychology dictates first impression last much longer than anything else. If consistently raid after raid I am NOT in the top 3, even though I am clearly putting in a top 3 effort (if not typically #1), they will inadvertently presume I am not putting forth the effort or skill and that sets a poor precedent.

I agree, the buff helped. I am also willing to concede that I am possibly focusing too much on farm content ... honestly the only progression fight we are working on right now that I am doing in an honest fashion is Iron Qon Heroic but even there I am only middle of the pack. Again I play with very good players and indeed I play with a Rogue, Lock, and DK ... in fact the only other DPS I get to consistently beat are the Warrior and Ele shaman (both of whom are not in very good spaces themselves). That said I have to reject this assertion that an invalid perception is livable. It isn't. If we are strong then it's important we are capable of being perceived as such. There's fleetingly few ferals in progression 10 mans right now specifically because of perception and if we are in fact as well off as people here assert then it's important we prove it and turn around the perception of this class as second-rate (at best). It's about a helluva lot more than epeen and one feral's bruised ego.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby feralminded » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:22 pm

And all of that said I am willing to concede I may have jumped the gun (not saying I don't have valid points, just admitting I am human) in evaluating our performance post-patch. It's entirely possible (in fact to some degree likely) that my own perception of us is still negatively affected by the past couple of tiers. It's been a long time since we've been dominant and it has definitely chewed at me. I feel our skill cap is rather high (I cannot objectively evaluate if it's the highest) and I feel it's not too much to ask for one of the higher skill cap classes to earn themselves a spot on the upper end of the DPS field. I understand blizzard does not have such fine-level control over these things and the variables are nigh-infinite but as a general policy it would be a nice quality-of-life thing.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:12 pm

I will be VERY interested to hear this because I honestly never had more fun playing my feral. Perhaps it was because this was when I was putting the most time into the game and was able to consistently A: Do fights "right", B: Rank top 3 in the 25, C: Rank top 50 in the world.

I am sick to death of hearing this. Face shooting will begin now!

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby feralminded » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:30 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:I am sick to death of hearing this. Face shooting will begin now!


Care to elaborate why players who thrived during any period of the game shouldn't look back on it as a golden age ... whether it be during ICC or Vanilla or Dragonsoul? I am interested in hearing your explanation so I can evaluate if it's logical or not, because where I'm sitting I just don't understand. Few things in any game were as explicitly fun and rewarding for me personally as succeeding as a John Madden Kitty. I don't personally think ICC was the pinnacle of game design or that Wrath of the Lich king was the best expansion ever (I am firmly in the AQ was the best 40, Ulduar the best 25, Kara the best 10 and BC the best expansion camp ... but I also freely admit its all subjective and not worth a debate) ... but I never before or since have taken so much pride in being good at WoW.
Nosis, GM of Neolutum, always recruiting

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby teddabear » Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:13 pm

From my perspective the buff was the absolute bare minimum required to make Feral competitive in 5.3. The problem is it is hard to keep a raid spot when your spec is only competitive every other patch. It's pretty obvious Feral has a severe scaling problem and this buff did not address that, so come 5.4 Feral will be in the same boat it was in with 5.2.

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby raffy » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:46 pm

I raid 10s with a bunch of hardcore-casuals and my DPS feels very competitive (I'm almost always #1 in our group, and I've been in the top 10 on wol on pretty much every fight for since Cata.)

That said, I feel that we have "expensive" scumbagging, so only fights like Tortos or Lei Shen, where we can maintain our primary rotation and Thrash/Swipe, give the opportunity to do retarded levels of DPS.

Doing really good DPS feels like it takes a lot of effort. I wouldn't say I tunnel in the traditional sense, but I definitely need to be "in the zone" to do good damage. If someone walks into my room while raiding or I get a text message, just that brief loss of concentration can really harm my rotation for the next 30s.

If there existed a World of Log ranking that measures "effective" DPS, I think Feral would score much better. It's just too easy for certain classes to cleave an extra 100K+ DPS onto their total.

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby teddabear » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:10 am

I think 10s is where it's an issue. I do think Feral is competitive with most classes right now but Warlocks, Mages and Rogues are still on a whole different level. That doesn't leave many slots available and from a gear standpoint it's preferable to add a Plate and/or Mail DPS. There isn't a real compelling reason to bring a Feral other than they are just flat out better players. There probably are quite a few Ferals that post here that fit that description but I don't consider myself one, at least not anymore, which may be why I have found Feral rather frustrating at times. Another issue that Ferals have faced, myself included, is that we were lagging so far behind in 5.2 that it was hard to get a raid slot. Now that were are reasonably competitive in 5.3 my DPS be right up with everybody else if my gear hadn't fallen behind in 5.2. Having been a raid leader in BC and LK I seriously doubt whether I would want a Feral knowing they were going to be lagging behind every other patch. Especially if Blizzard is going to reserve the real DPS tuning for the patches after the raid content patches. I will say I think we are in better shape than some other classes/specs at the moment but most of them have more compelling reasons to be given a raid slot.

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