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Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Dysheki » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:47 am

I don't really feel we lag that far behind. I raid with some decent players that all rank ok and I'm very competitive with their dps. Though it is difficult to compare because of the tiny sample size of feral 10H raiders because you'll often see 4-5 with good dps and then a huge drop-off with the rest of the feral parses.

Anyhow: The whole idea with the John Madden picture was funny but didn't really mean much when comparing it to today's feral. Look at where we were (design wise) for feral at each expansion.

WotLK: This is where the John Madden thing came into play and brought the current model to use Savage Roar to buff your damage. While it was a funny picture, I don't really think that it was that difficult back then. We had to keep up SR, maintain rip/rake, keep up FFF, and babysit the mangle debuff depending on your raid comp. That was really it. It was also the expansion of armor pen which allowed us to do silly dps with a specific gear set and outside buffs (tricks/the dk ability, whatever). We were really good dps . . . if you had the armor pen gear and outside buffs. But if you didn't . . . meh. You were decent.

Cata: SR was considered too hard. They made it so dropping SR for a bit wasn't a terrible thing since it only buffed melee damage. Otherwise feral was mostly left unchanged outside of some things like BitW (I could be wrong, but I don't remember too much being added for this expansion). We were okay dps, nothing amazing but viable.

MoP: SR reverted. It was deemed 'too easy' to not have to worry about it much. The funny thing is they wanted the difficulty more in line with what Wrath difficulty was - then added thrash and DoC. So now you have to worry about everything you needed to in Wrath but also pay attention to thrash and DoC (which is probably 1,000 times more difficult to understand than SR will ever be). SR - straight damage buff if it goes down it's bad. DoC - many different combinations of possibilities depending on your energy, your CPs, your time left on the PS proc, the relative strength of your current bleed compared to the one you could put up, the use of NS, etc.

So if you feel that you were great during Wrath but don't feel as powerful now it likely isn't because you're necessarily bad or because feral was that much better before; it's actually probably just because you don't fully understand how to use DoC. And I feel bad because it's not exactly the most intuitive thing to use and brought back the gap between the people that don't know how to use DoC (but try to anyhow) and the people that use it correctly. They said after Wrath they wanted skilled players to do better dps but not by a huge amount (so they slightly lowered the skill needed). Then they felt the skill gap was too low and accidentally put a grand canyon of a gap in between.

Thankfully there are options like HotW for people who don't want to bother with DoC and you can put up decent numbers. But if you're doing that you're likely to feel inferior because you just won't be able to do higher dps. And I can understand. But that's how it is atm.

End rant!
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby feralminded » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:10 am

I will have to summarily disagree with the assertion that DoC is required to good DPS. I have or have had a top 150 parse (and plenty of top 50 with a couple of top 20) on nearly every fight in this tier with the exception I think of Horridon using HoTW for Tranq. It is certain that when I compare my DPS to other classes, even if you added the theoretical max of 4% from DoC to my current DPS, I would still judge it precisely the same. Remove skill from the equation and ferals are not in a very good place. The buff certainly corrected us back to middle/upper middle of the pack on non-cleave fights ... but that was all it did. Either way DoC is by no means required and if anything when combined with the nature of RoR introduces what I would assert is an potentially unhealthy amount of RNG to our rotation.

That said I will concede the DoC playstyle is very interesting and indeed very well may approach or even exceed the skill level required in WoTLK (the skill back then was as much in the lack of knowledge/assist mods as anything else ... though Mangle and SR juggling made life quite interesting). My point was not so much that it was more skill based back then, it was that in ICC we were playing at a very high skill level and were very well rewarded for it. These days the skill level is arguably similar (possibly even higher) and were are NOT similarly rewarded. While I understand blizzard cannot easily correct all classes such that skill == DPS, nor necessarily should they (there is something to be said for the existence of simpler classes/rotations) ... it still would be nice for there to be some reward for complexity of rotation.

Perhaps the only *real* issue is heavy cleave where I feel our rotation is in fact very arduous compared to plenty of other classes that can smoke our DPS with dramatically similar rotations (warlock on horridon is the prime example that comes to mind).

I will concede my initial evaluation of the buff may have been too harsh. I play with other highly skilled players who also happen to be mostly playing currently OP specs and I understand there is a certain wax and wane to the whole "best spec" thing (unless you are a mage, when have they NOT had a top 3 spec in the history of raiding?). Either way I will continue to bristle at any assertion that we are in a good place ... at best were "ok" and only because of the OPness of RoR.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Dysheki » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:11 pm

A few things about ranking: Again, sample size is different from warlocks and feral druids. There are far less feral druids than warlocks raiding and this is exacerbated in 10s. I'm not kidding when I say we killed heroic Animus and I ranked 2 out of 5 ferals. This was ranked as 'West' 112 kill. Not saying all of those guilds use WoL but I'd bet most do and it shows the representation of ferals fairly well (at least at a competitive level where players are assumed to know their stuff).

I said you can still put up decent numbers with HotW. It's not bad or anything. Some of our first heroic kills have been with HotW. But overall you will on average lose out to someone that knows how to use DoC correctly. I could see the difference this tier when we did heroic Lei Shen attempts. There was a definitive bump with DoC and the only way HotW could compete was with some good trinket timings. (the first few attempts after I switched to HotW I was doing really good dps, but I was able to get one of my trinkets to buff nearly each rip - once the timing sucked there was a noticable difference).

Now, are we only doing okay because of Rune? That's a good question and I'm not sure I can answer that. But I raid with people that have had good parses for their classes and I still compete with them on progression where we are making sure we do our job and not douchebagging up the meters. Will we be okay for 5.4? I don't know. A lot goes into a new tier besides what we currently know.

I also don't understand people who say we're only 'okay' as if it were a bad thing. Someone has to be in the middle and it just happens to be us. So what? I would rather be 'okay' than a bottom feeder.

/shrug
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Dysheki » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:15 pm

Also, because of fight mechanics and class limitations it would be silly to compare a feral druid on normal council to a warlock. I understand the point you're trying to make, but warlocks will absolutely destroy us if they are allowed to just run amok and do whatever they want.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby feralminded » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:31 pm

You make valid points Dysheki, I apologize if I come off as obstinate and appreciate your patience. I would have to agree that if somehow you removed rogues, locks, and mages we'd be top tier PVE DPS, maybe even #1. Being upper middle of the pack is NOT a bad place to be at all. That said I still feel like I am handily trounced by vastly simpler specs (I'm sure you are aware how much simpler assassination is and regardless of how much they have to suffer RNG fire mages are only complex during their alter-time periods) and I guess that chafes a bit. I also hate rake spam on heroic horridon. Hate hate hate it. I know you probably get to stick on the boss at this point of your progression but we are now a 10 man (25 failed ... sigh) and it's still sketchy on adds for us.

Either way you have made me realized the crux of my arguement (beyond our mid-pack AoE DPS) is that other classes are too good ... which really translates into QQ. Turns out despite my attempts to avoid it I have turned into that guy whining about others. Thank you for the honesty.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Dysheki » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:34 pm

No problem. And I'm not saying everything I say here is correct; I'm just giving my perspective on how I see them because most of this stuff is pretty heavily skewed with opinions.

Side note: I do not get to stay on Horridon :( and my alt rogue is really boring.
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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby teddabear » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:12 pm

I agree with Feral being upper middle right now which should be a good place. However it seems to be the difference between upper middle and lower middle is quite small and the difference between upper middle and top 3 is quite large. To the degree that it appears this is on purpose. I am not ok with Blizzard purposely making 3 classes superior, especially in light of all the tools and utility they have been given as well. If I thought Blizzard was at least trying to make DPS equal it would be different but it seems apparent to me they want warlocks, mages and rogues a significant notch above everybody else. I think it is only qq if this is where the classes happened to end up this patch but if it is a design philosophy I feel people have a right to be dissatisfied.

Yes the number of Ferals is quite low, I have commented that ranking as Feral only means that you killed the boss. However I don't think the reasons for that are so arcane. When Cataclysm came out Ferals were everywhere until the they got crushed with the nerf bat. I'm fairly confident that if Feral were as attractive as Rogues for raiding that the representation would skyrocket.

Another issue is I feel Feral is being propped up by RoR right now which doesn't bode well for next tier. One thing Blizzard could do to really help would be finally fix our target switching problems. Redirect and Soul Swap really don't cut it, especially on a fight like Horridon. One thing they could look at is changing one of the talents so that low or even 0 point Ferocious Bites were useful in those situations. I realize that has huge PvP implications so we would have to give up something pretty significant. If they changed King of the Jungle to make Ferocious Bite do good damage without combo points then you would have to give up SotF, but it would be worthwhile on a fight like Horridon.

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Re: Going forward to 5.4 - did 5.3 solve the dps gap?

Postby Whitepaw » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:51 am

and my alt rogue is really boring.


True :lol:

Even on a lowly-geared alt Assassination Rogue, I have oodles of time left on S&D when I Envenom and get it refreshed. I mean, the passive effect of Envenom only falls off when I need to refresh Rupture 8-)

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