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Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:56 am

I'm not seeing where they removed healing boosts from HotW. All I see is that now when Resto activates it they get a healing buff as well as a melee/wrath buff. I think the remaining specs are unchanged. From the patch notes (not datamining):
•Heart of the Wild when activated, now also provides a 25% bonus to healing for Restoration Druids.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby teddabear » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:54 am

I guess I've been doing it wrong.

I thought you were suppose to use Tigers Fury BEFORE Rip.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:55 am

Tinderhoof wrote:I'm not seeing where they removed healing boosts from HotW. All I see is that now when Resto activates it they get a healing buff as well as a melee/wrath buff. I think the remaining specs are unchanged. From the patch notes (not datamining):
•Heart of the Wild when activated, now also provides a 25% bonus to healing for Restoration Druids.


The data-mined MMOC notes have the following
Non-Restoration Healing increased and mana cost of all healing spells reduced by 100%.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Sibylle » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:01 am

Yeah, I don't believe HotW has been nerfed for ferals - which would likely make it the no. 1 dps talent if things remain as they are.

It is no secret that I don't like DoC in its current form. I'm in no way endorsing the proposed changes on the PTR - they make DoC ridiculously weak as a top-tier talent - but this insane drive to make the rotation ever more complicated has taken on strange forms recently. DoC is counter-intuitive and convoluted: Pooling energy to then stack combo points, to then use a HEAL (a heal as a regularly part of a dps rotation... uh-huh...) to buff our damage... - riiiight.

I think the small, dedicated community we as ferals have become, has lost perspective to an extent. Look at the complexity of other specs. I have a priest who levels and sometimes raid-finder-s as shadow. There are two main DoTs to maintain (and a third that's used when 3 shadow orbs are available). Compared that to feral, we have Rake, Rip, and Savage Roar to maintain. Sounds like only 1 more DoT, however two of these require combo points - it's nothing like the whack-a-mole style DoT management of other classes at all.

This factor alone lifts the spec waaaaaaaaaaaaay above average in terms of complexity. Don't get me wrong, I like this, we all do, it's one reason why we play the spec. But this insane drive to add ever more twists to our rotation might, just might be overkill. People say feral became "easy" in Cata, and I'm sorry, no, it wasn't. There was still a lot to watch, and to do top dps you still had to maintain SR etc.

Just sayin... Don't lynch me, please :)
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Alpheus » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:33 am

Sibylle wrote:Yeah, I don't believe HotW has been nerfed for ferals - which would likely make it the no. 1 dps talent if things remain as they are.

It is no secret that I don't like DoC in its current form. I'm in no way endorsing the proposed changes on the PTR - they make DoC ridiculously weak as a top-tier talent - but this insane drive to make the rotation ever more complicated has taken on strange forms recently. DoC is counter-intuitive and convoluted: Pooling energy to then stack combo points, to then use a HEAL (a heal as a regularly part of a dps rotation... uh-huh...) to buff our damage... - riiiight.

I think the small, dedicated community we as ferals have become, has lost perspective to an extent. Look at the complexity of other specs. I have a priest who levels and sometimes raid-finder-s as shadow. There are two main DoTs to maintain (and a third that's used when 3 shadow orbs are available). Compared that to feral, we have Rake, Rip, and Savage Roar to maintain. Sounds like only 1 more DoT, however two of these require combo points - it's nothing like the whack-a-mole style DoT management of other classes at all.

This factor alone lifts the spec waaaaaaaaaaaaay above average in terms of complexity. Don't get me wrong, I like this, we all do, it's one reason why we play the spec. But this insane drive to add ever more twists to our rotation might, just might be overkill. People say feral became "easy" in Cata, and I'm sorry, no, it wasn't. There was still a lot to watch, and to do top dps you still had to maintain SR etc.

Just sayin... Don't lynch me, please :)


I don't think anyone's complaining about our rotation becoming even more complex. By far the biggest complaint in this thread is the fact that fixes which seemed to be PvP-oriented will lower our PvE dps significantly and also make our rotation less involved but also more random. Considering how random our dps is at the current state (deviations of up to 60k dps on most heroic bosses) it's definitely an unwelcome step in the wrong direction.

Ferals have already been the john-fucking-madden of dps classes since wotlk but have been rewarded with dps in the higher end of the spectrum (with the exception of late-cata, late-wotlk and early MoP). I dare say there's classes out there which are far easier to play that perform and scale better than us and this PTR preview seems to be pushing feral dps into the "less complex but also less dps" department which would make it completely unappealing to take into serious raids. They're also buffing some of the easy-to-play ranged classes. So yeh ;)
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Angelofblood » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:28 am

Sibylle wrote:Yeah, I don't believe HotW has been nerfed for ferals - which would likely make it the no. 1 dps talent if things remain as they are.

It is no secret that I don't like DoC in its current form. I'm in no way endorsing the proposed changes on the PTR - they make DoC ridiculously weak as a top-tier talent - but this insane drive to make the rotation ever more complicated has taken on strange forms recently. DoC is counter-intuitive and convoluted: Pooling energy to then stack combo points, to then use a HEAL (a heal as a regularly part of a dps rotation... uh-huh...) to buff our damage... - riiiight.

I think the small, dedicated community we as ferals have become, has lost perspective to an extent. Look at the complexity of other specs. I have a priest who levels and sometimes raid-finder-s as shadow. There are two main DoTs to maintain (and a third that's used when 3 shadow orbs are available). Compared that to feral, we have Rake, Rip, and Savage Roar to maintain. Sounds like only 1 more DoT, however two of these require combo points - it's nothing like the whack-a-mole style DoT management of other classes at all.

This factor alone lifts the spec waaaaaaaaaaaaay above average in terms of complexity. Don't get me wrong, I like this, we all do, it's one reason why we play the spec. But this insane drive to add ever more twists to our rotation might, just might be overkill. People say feral became "easy" in Cata, and I'm sorry, no, it wasn't. There was still a lot to watch, and to do top dps you still had to maintain SR etc.

Just sayin... Don't lynch me, please :)


tbh, I don't agree with DoC being counter-intuitive, i find it to be quite a nice thing for a hybrid setting.

I quite like the current difficulty of DoC. Having done lfrs on my mage & rogue alts I find their rotations to be too simple, it's imo more fun to have a challenging rotation. Though it feels slightly unrewarding if you compare the difficulty levels of rogue rotation & DoC and their respective dmg output.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Yriss » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:30 am

i really hope they'll change their mind ...
We were already only 2-3 ferals on top 10 r25 guilds, but i was sure i'll be [email protected], lack of raid utility (tranq is garbage compared to others cd raids) and not a dps far superior than others ranged/melee ... i want to play my feral, not my rogue/Warlock :(
Bonus sets, wtf ? Nerf doc ? Remove NS ? Did we receive a better scaling, not datamined ?

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Sorcerer » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:33 am

I think DoC would have been much easier to learn and play if the expansion gear progress wouldnt be so damn huge.

Big part of my early frustration, in first tier, was that while rotation was hard, it was also damn stupid with so low amount of energy regen and crit. Currently, it is on the other end, we have too much crit and energy regen.

I remember myself whining early expansion how stupid & counter intuitive was the rotation, while still true, people will find it annoying to suddenly change the entire gameplay. I'd seek more tweaks so the rotation isnt such a clusterfuck with timers and missing execution of PS is less of a niusance. BLizzard should have given PS a 12-15sec timer long time ago.

Someone posted a while ago, the difference and DPS gain of top 100 ferals in the world to a median. The spread was 2nd? biggest among all classes.
I would say that the difference between top and median is much bigger due to the fact, that while looking at top 100 ferals, We could probably assume that out of that 100 top, probably there is 40 players (probably EVEN LESS)playing to maximum potential. The gap between top 1-40 players to 40-100 given same gear would be immense if datamined.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Sibylle » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:25 am

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm with you on the complaint about the changes they propose. There's nothing that's good about them.

I just brought up the fact that "making the rotation more complex/interesting" isn't the only criterion. Complex but fluid, intuitive and fun beats complex and awkward/clunky.

I do agree that DoC got easier with better gear and energy regen in the course of the expac.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Moosie » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:39 am

About time I signed up here :P

Anyway, these changes are horrible. It looks like all the changes are to just make feral easier to play (4pc to cater for people who still can't keep a finisher up?) DoC was fine as it was, granted it was scaled a little too much to make the other talents not favourable, but all they had to do was scale the other 2 around it. A small buff to the passive effect on HotW would have made it much better, rather then killing a whole talent just to balance. That said, I bet resto druids are now laughing, now they pretty much got atonement healing...

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby ShmooDude » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:07 am

Alpheus wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:I'm not seeing where they removed healing boosts from HotW. All I see is that now when Resto activates it they get a healing buff as well as a melee/wrath buff. I think the remaining specs are unchanged. From the patch notes (not datamining):
•Heart of the Wild when activated, now also provides a 25% bonus to healing for Restoration Druids.


The data-mined MMOC notes have the following
Non-Restoration Healing increased and mana cost of all healing spells reduced by 100%.


It was simply moved to the top of the talent because it now applies to all specs and not only Non-restoration.

When activated, increases all healing done and, dramatically




Sorcerer wrote:BLizzard should have given PS a 12-15sec timer long time ago.


It used to be (I think) 20, it was nerfed for PvP reasons. Guessing the DoC has to do with more of the same.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Dysheki » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:25 am

The wording on HotW changes from mmo-champ led me to believe it was nerfed for ferals. Thanks for catching the part where it was placed in the actual root of the spell. And yeah, the lessening of the 30% heal from DoC is curious and I would like to hear some reasoning behind it.

Sibylle wrote:I think the small, dedicated community we as ferals have become, has lost perspective to an extent. Look at the complexity of other specs. I have a priest who levels and sometimes raid-finder-s as shadow. There are two main DoTs to maintain (and a third that's used when 3 shadow orbs are available). Compared that to feral, we have Rake, Rip, and Savage Roar to maintain. Sounds like only 1 more DoT, however two of these require combo points - it's nothing like the whack-a-mole style DoT management of other classes at all.

I agree that I have grown to enjoy the talent more than I ever have and I'm sad it's being changed the way it is. That's why I consider the change disappointing if they balance it correctly. I get mind numbingly bored on my rogue when I have so little to track it's nice to have this style of play (imo) and that's why I defend the current DoC. So instead they should make other specs more difficult and leave feral alone =P lol.

I do agree with you it feels awkward to use a heal to increase your dps and I've said so since the start, but I still like what it's become.

Sibylle wrote:This factor alone lifts the spec waaaaaaaaaaaaay above average in terms of complexity. Don't get me wrong, I like this, we all do, it's one reason why we play the spec. But this insane drive to add ever more twists to our rotation might, just might be overkill. People say feral became "easy" in Cata, and I'm sorry, no, it wasn't. There was still a lot to watch, and to do top dps you still had to maintain SR etc.

From Wrath to Cata the spec basically stayed the same except it was more forgiving with the change for SR to increase melee damage instead of all damage. So while it wasn't necessarily easier, it was more forgiving because a mess up where you drop SR when you needed to re-apply rip didn't affect you as much as it does now. So I understand why people considered the rotation easier because a mistake wouldn't kill you. Either way we're just arguing semantics.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby baver » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:28 am

So lets say the 2set and 4set stays and they nerf ror trinket to add 2 trinkets thats kinda like juju, do you think we will go allout mastery still even when we need haste for meta, 2set and trinkets?
Would realy suck to go back to allout mastery again.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Dysheki » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:35 am

baver wrote:So lets say the 2set and 4set stays and they nerf ror trinket to add 2 trinkets thats kinda like juju, do you think we will go allout mastery still even when we need haste for meta, 2set and trinkets?
Would realy suck to go back to allout mastery again.

I would personally be surprised if they did change RoR but who knows. As for the secondary stats: I don't know for sure. I'm not a simcraft type person. But I would imagine with the DoC change (never getting rake/thrash DoC benefits) and RPPM meta/trinkets still in haste would jump in value. Would it overtake mastery? I'm not sure. But it wouldn't be like it was at the start of the expansion where you dumped all of your haste. And if mastery still comes out the better it's another reason for me to despise the RPPM mechanic because we'll be unable to fully benefit from RPPM trinkets/metas like other classes that favor haste over other stats.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby raffy » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:36 am

I just can't get over how awkward and unrewarding the 4p bonus is. So if I want to AoE and I'm out of energy, I TF, then waste energy on a FB or Rip, and now get off 1-less Swipe/Thrash than before. It just seems so restrictive.

Aside: I suggested that the proper nerf for the Rune is just putting a cap on the buff. Since WW uses much higher secondaries that we do, if they Rune does get nerfed, and they choose this approach (which is by far the easiest to implement and understand) we'll still be able to use it for a while.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Whitepaw » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:49 am

I like that Blizz will tune DoC. It's way too complicated now, when you combine with:
- Way too little time on PS. It was 15 sec when introduced, but nerfed to 8 sec (so you couldn't hold the proc while building 5 CP, then -> Cyclone -> FB for a PvP kill).
- Weapon and trinket procs.

I just feel way too much at the mercy of bad tanks, healers and stupid boss mechanics (wtf is it with all this boss turning these days? I mean, Ragnaros, Onyxia, Mimiron, Lich King and all the other tough guys didn't turn around all the time. Welcome to tier 14/15, where all the bosses are now turning like ice skaters on drugs!). Take Iron Qon. One small deviation from his turning or shield and you can kiss a DoC charge goodbye. And that's just one example.

It goes without saying that we will have to be slightly buffed to make up for the DoC nerf.

I don't like the NS change. And if it goes through, I want the Cyclone CD for Ferals removed.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Moosie » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:11 am

Whitepaw wrote:I like that Blizz will tune DoC. It's way too complicated now, when you combine with:
- Way too little time on PS. It was 15 sec when introduced, but nerfed to 8 sec (so you couldn't hold the proc while building 5 CP, then -> Cyclone -> FB for a PvP kill).
- Weapon and trinket procs.

I just feel way too much at the mercy of bad tanks, healers and stupid boss mechanics (wtf is it with all this boss turning these days? I mean, Ragnaros, Onyxia, Mimiron, Lich King and all the other tough guys didn't turn around all the time. Welcome to tier 14/15, where all the bosses are now turning like ice skaters on drugs!). Take Iron Qon. One small deviation from his turning or shield and you can kiss a DoC charge goodbye. And that's just one example.

It goes without saying that we will have to be slightly buffed to make up for the DoC nerf.

I don't like the NS change. And if it goes through, I want the Cyclone CD for Ferals removed.


Honestly, at this stage in gear progression, PS was long enough to normally always get a doc rip/rake up if needed, I very rarely found myself needing more time on PS, with the exception of getting back to targets.

That said, NS was used by pretty much everyone, the other 2 talents just didn't make sense. It was expected that it would be changed. Just a shame they had to do this. They could have :

1) Baked NS into DoC. Change the talent so it gives different effects depending on the spec you are in (like hotw)
2) Make NV viable again, and buff HotW slightly so that all 3 talents are much closer and it's a choice again.
3) Just remove DoC altogether and add a totally new level 90 talent, because it's becoming obvious they don't know what to do with it.

I hate these changes as much as anyone else, but it was definitely expected.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Masticor » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:22 am

First off I have to agree fully with Sibylle and Sorcerer!

This is a longer rant about DoC beeing unnecessary and ... well stupid, if it's too long or stupid, continue reading at the ===-Line

I too always felt like DoC was way to contrived und unnecessarily complicated. Saving combopoints and energy just to beat the clock on a timer that was set too low because of pvp. The constant healing, not because we need it, but because we needed it to proc something. The buff that you get by beating the clock has an endless duration BUT as you can’t use any other ability during that time because they would consume the buff resulting in a subpar use you have to use it on your bleeds which, for that, have to be timed and prepared for that. Hence the race against the clock at the start.

I know I have a much more negative view on this than most of you. At the moment I tank and only on occasion play as a burning kitty but I always felt gimped. I don’t use DoC. If I do, my dps will (at best) be as good as with HotW or NV. Ok sometimes it’s better but usually I am not so good at it. Maybe it’s because I am bad, maybe it’s because of my constant but unavoidable bad ping, maybe because of missing practice or the fact that I have to split my attention to do part-time raidlead.

I never think of DoC as just “Nice to have” I never felt like “It’s the little extra for those who can” the “5%” extra in the 105% of the Top Ferals. Actually I always felt like “DoC + Ovale-Tunnelvision or go home”. More like “this is the 100% around which feral is balanced” everything else is not the way it’s meant to be played and by that sub 100%.

That always boggled my mind and maybe it’s just me but how could that be the way it is meant to be played when it is clunky as hell to play.It gets teated like “the norm” but it feels like powerswitching back in the day. When the ferals using that skewed the results in the top 100 and the cat gets nerfed because of it … that just makes no sense to me. Plus if I look around in my guild most other classes watch tv while doing more damage where I have to struggle to keep up even if I had 0 latency.

So for me seeing a change in DoC to only affect certain spell(s) is a welcome change.

==============================

That being said though, I do agree with you guys that only one effect and only 15% is a hefty nerf. It should be “your next two bleeds” and it should be more than 15%.
I would like to see the cat do high, competitive dps without having to jump through hoops. I don’t mind one or two hoops so that skilled players get a little more out of it but … the hoop does not have to be spiked, on fire, in a snake pit, on another planet, guarded by Cthulhu.

Sorry for the long rant and bad English.

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby lamchopp » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:31 am

Tinderhoof wrote:It like NS being moved to Resto only are PVP nerfs. The DoC change will likely not be buffed much also due to PVP. Really grumpy about PVP getting into my PVE again.


AFAIK most ferals don't even touch DoC for PvP, whether it be RBGs or arenas. (i.e. Reckful, Talason or any other high rated/gladiator)

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Sibylle » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:50 am

Masticor wrote: … the hoop does not have to be spiked, on fire, in a snake pit, on another planet, guarded by Cthulhu.

This made me lol. It's exactly how I feel about DoC.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Cetlysm » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:17 pm

So with those set bonuses, it sounds like offtier pieces will be superior?
I mean set 2 is wotlk level bonus, and set 4 only use is switching and the only other thing I can think about is using it to always refresh SR
with it, but that will lead to some time being wasted.
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby aggixx » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:39 pm

lamchopp wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:It like NS being moved to Resto only are PVP nerfs. The DoC change will likely not be buffed much also due to PVP. Really grumpy about PVP getting into my PVE again.


AFAIK most ferals don't even touch DoC for PvP, whether it be RBGs or arenas. (i.e. Reckful, Talason or any other high rated/gladiator)


Dream of Cenarius actually isn't that bad for PvP it's just outshadowed pretty hard by HotW.

Cetlysm wrote:So with those set bonuses, it sounds like offtier pieces will be superior?
I mean set 2 is wotlk level bonus, and set 4 only use is switching and the only other thing I can think about is using it to always refresh SR
with it, but that will lead to some time being wasted.


Don't know yet. The 2-piece is awful for sure, but the 4-piece, while likely incredibly awkward, may possibly decent, it's really hard to estimate without actually simulating it. It'll also take some action list adjustments for sure >.<
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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby teddabear » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:54 pm

If the goal is to improve target switching why in the world would you do that with a set bonus? After the next tier Feral will never need to target switch again? Am I wrong in thinking Tiger's Fury buffed bleeds? It seems to be that if used as designed the 4 pc would be a DPS loss. I have a hard time believing Blizzard thinks Feral is too high in PvE, how much of a gain is DoC over HotW currently?

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby aggixx » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:33 pm

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Re: Druid t16 set bonuses and 5.4 PTR changes

Postby Fortybones » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:00 pm

Yay for proposed 2 piece bonus giving us .8% more damage... Aren't they normally balanced to give about a 5% bonus to dps?

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