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TF Rune + Heroic Ren

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TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby KevinDGAF » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:12 am

Hi Everybody,

KevinDGAF
Kel'Thuzad

Gearing up slowly (521), weapon is still crap. Just logged out with a new upgrade (neck) so my reforges aren't correct.

BUT

The real reason why I'm posting is the following:

I have TF Rune and Heroic Ren. Could someone spare a few words on how to maximize DPS with these two trinkets? I just watch for Ovale Script to tell me when my current snapshot is stronger than when the last of a particular bleed was applied.

Is a full Ren proc (with ~2.0 sec remaining) on it's own worse than Rune proccing on its own? I think so. So if that's the case, how many seconds am I willing to wait to put on a bleed while Ren is procced? We have to consider the possibility that during this wait time Rune could proc, thus rewarding us massively. Relative to Rake or Rip's damage per second, how much is another stack of Renataki's worth?

How about if I have a double proc? I would think the idea of waiting sounds worse.

Sorry, I haven't seen a thread about this.

Thanks

Kevin

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby KevinDGAF » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:14 am

Sorry for double post. I know some stuff about Rune but not about Renataki, just to clarify.

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Felucia » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:19 am

I haven't done any math on this, but i would guess rune proc > 10 blades. so unless your dot is about to run out i wouldn't clip it.

Could test it out after work. Unless someone else is faster than me ;)
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Masticor » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:56 am

I am not 100% sure but my gut tells me that a full Rune Rip is stronger then a 10 stack Renataki Rip. But that only matters if you compare the sum of every single tick. Now if you want to know at which point, or at how many ticks left it's okay to clip a rune rip with a 10 stack Renataki Rip ... your guess is as good as mine. I do clip it but only if the rune rip is at it's last ticks and renataki is at 9-10. Simply because I don't think that saving those last couple of ticks will do more damage than a 10 stack Rip compared to a rip with no trinket buff at all.

I hope that made sense...

I don't clip a Rune-Rip with a Renataki if the Stack is lower than 8/9. Why would you? You can simply wait while it ticks. Now if you wan't to know if you should wait for stack 10 with no Rip up at all ... I don't know for sure, but I think you should not.

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Stenhaldi » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:18 am

KevinDGAF wrote:Is a full Ren proc (with ~2.0 sec remaining) on it's own worse than Rune proccing on its own? I think so.

10-stack Blades is generally a little better than Re-Origination, assuming the item level of your Renataki's is similar to that of the rest of your gear. For example, in my own gear (549 Renataki's with 547 average item level) Re-Origination is a 75.4% bleed damage boost while 10-stack Blades is a 78.4% rip damage (and 85.4% rake damage) boost.

Edit: separate rake and rip values since rip has worse AP scaling
Last edited by Stenhaldi on Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:24 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Felucia » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:44 am

Stenhaldi wrote:
KevinDGAF wrote:Is a full Ren proc (with ~2.0 sec remaining) on it's own worse than Rune proccing on its own? I think so.

10-stack Blades is generally a little better than Re-Origination, assuming the item level of your Renataki's is similar to that of the rest of your gear. For example, in my own gear (549 Renataki's with 547 average item level) Re-Origination is a ~76% bleed damage boost while 10-stack Blades is a ~88% bleed damage boost.


can you give me a bit more math on this? I believe you are wrong. I did the simple training dummy test and came up with this:

10 Stack Ren: ~41.6k ticks on Rip
Rune: ~50.9k ticks on Rip
No procs: 25.4k ticks on rip

So this means a 63% increase with 10 Rens, a 100% increase with Rune.

I made sure not to have dancing steel active on both those procs. No SR, no other damage amplifiers were used.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/a ... o/advanced
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby raffy » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:35 pm

Note: you're missing an enchant, your Rune proc is haste, and you're using Windsong

I enchanted your chest, changed to Dancing Steel, and reforged to 1:1:1.

Here is an incomplete table of Rip with buffs (I just sampled Catus to collect this, so if it never happened in a sim, it's not recorded here)

For simplicity, I changed your trinket to Juju:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... f-Juju.png

For reference, here is the Charm table (I didn't break out the Agility):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... -Charm.png

If you were using DoC, that adds another buff to the mix.
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Dysheki » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:58 pm

Seems to me that a Rune proc is typically greater than 10 Rentaki's. /shrug

Don't have any math/proof, just going by what I tend to see in a raid which could very well be screwed up by things like Dancing Steel and TF.

I also only have 537 item level because I'm a dirty 10 man raider that's not allowed to have Thunderforged gear (and I don't have a cloak). Fun.
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby aggixx » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:11 pm

My rule of thumb is wait as long as you can without wasting energy or causing downtime, unless you're trying to line up a BitW Rip and then it can be worth it.
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby feralminded » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:18 pm

Yeah from the list presented above
SR + Rune: 59.5k ticks
SR + Juju: 47.8k ticks

This confirms my suspicion that Rune > * (which is how I play anyhow). Generally speaking nothing available to use compares to rune, I mean if you reference the table above it takes Juju + Pot + Emb + Steel to have parity with JUST rune. That said if you do have say at least Rentaki 10 stack (or just juju) AND TF up its still likely +dps to clip if you're under say 4-5 seconds on your previous rune Rip as you're still looking at a fairly nasty bleed you can put up and another rune proc is going to be hard to find and again only if rentaki or juju is about to fall off. That said it's not that simple with TF involves as you also likely have to burn down some rage so it's all really the standard judgement call. We're splitting hairs here as I'm not sure any of the answers in the above situation come out much ahead of any other.
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:28 pm

Dysheki wrote:Seems to me that a Rune proc is typically greater than 10 Rentaki's. /shrug

Don't have any math/proof, just going by what I tend to see in a raid which could very well be screwed up by things like Dancing Steel and TF.

I also only have 537 item level because I'm a dirty 10 man raider that's not allowed to have Thunderforged gear (and I don't have a cloak). Fun.

I don't want to hear anything from you "Mr Heroic Random Drop Staff Week 3".

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Stenhaldi » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:11 pm

To the people saying Re-Origination is better than Blades:

You need to account for crit chance. Re-Origination decreases crit chance by 11-14% while Renataki's increases crit chance by 12-15%. Remember that bleeds snapshot crit chance (as of 5.2).

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby raffy » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:58 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:To the people saying Re-Origination is better than Blades:

You need to account for crit chance. Re-Origination decreases crit chance by 11-14% while Renataki's increases crit chance by 17-20%. Remember that bleeds snapshot crit chance (as of 5.2).

Yeah, I was going to put a disclaimer on my table, that it's not factoring in crit and it specific to Kevin's gear.

base crit = 40%
Rune Crit: ~5700 / 600 = -10% crit => 30%
Charm Crit: 15920 / 1250 = +12.5% crit => 52.5%

base mastery = 9000
Rune Mastery: => (25 + (9000 + 5700 * 4) / 192) = +191%
Charm Mastery: => (25 + 9000 / 192) = +72%

base ap = 51000
RuneTick = (900 + 5 * (2560 + 0.3872 * 51000)) / 8 = 14054
CharmTick = (900 + 5 * (2560 + 0.3872 * (51000 + 1.05 * 1.05 * 1.06 * 15920 * 2)) / 8 = 23059

RuneRip = 14054 * 1.3 * 2.91 = 53166
CharmRip = 23059 * 1.525 * 1.72 = 60483

Edit: and I guess he's using Agile too (I was assuming Capac)

I should just make this a feature of Catus, computing all of the bleed permutations.
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Dysheki » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:00 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:To the people saying Re-Origination is better than Blades:

You need to account for crit chance. Re-Origination decreases crit chance by 11-14% while Renataki's increases crit chance by 12-15%. Remember that bleeds snapshot crit chance (as of 5.2).

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You know what's funny? I always thought that dogs laid eggs, and I learned something today.

More or less just a silly facepalm moment because I didn't think the crit was that big of a difference.
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby raffy » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:16 pm

Spoiler: show
Crit = 46.96%
Mastery = 10880
Haste = 7858
Crit = 7869
AP = 59665

RuneCrit: 7869 / 600 = 13.115 => 33.845%
CharmCrit: 15920*1.05*1.05 / 1250 = 14.0 => 61%

RuneMastery: => (25 + (10880 + (7858+7869) * 2) / 192) = +246%
CharmMastery: => (25 + 10880 / 192) = +82%

RuneTick = (900 + 5 * (2560 + 0.3872 * 59665)) / 8 = 16151
CharmTick = (900 + 5 * (2560 + 0.3872 * (59665 + 1.05 * 1.05 * 15920 * 2)) / 8 = 25434


For my own gear (544), using DoC and Capac, it's much closer:
RuneRip = 16151 * 1.33 * 3.46 = 74324
CharmRip = 25434 * 1.61* 1.82 = 74527
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Dysheki » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:23 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
Dysheki wrote:Seems to me that a Rune proc is typically greater than 10 Rentaki's. /shrug

Don't have any math/proof, just going by what I tend to see in a raid which could very well be screwed up by things like Dancing Steel and TF.

I also only have 537 item level because I'm a dirty 10 man raider that's not allowed to have Thunderforged gear (and I don't have a cloak). Fun.

I don't want to hear anything from you "Mr Heroic Random Drop Staff Week 3".

Hey now, I still have 0 TF items (normal OR heroic). I was lucky there but that's the only lucky part of this expansion for me (almost finished heroic MV without a weapon from LFR/normal/or heroic Kings and had to use a 463 weapon for most progression in that instance - never got heroic a Tsulong weapon, like 7-8 kills with extra rolls :( ).

Edit: 4 Ra-Den kills and 4 rolls, still no TF pieces, BUT I FINALLY GOT MY 12TH RUNESTONE BECAUSE OF THE RECENT GUARANTEE MECHANICS YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Stenhaldi » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:43 pm

Dysheki wrote:Hey now, I still have 0 TF items (normal OR heroic). I was lucky there but that's the only lucky part of this expansion for me (almost finished heroic MV without a weapon from LFR/normal/or heroic Kings and had to use a 463 weapon for most progression in that instance - never got heroic a Tsulong weapon, like 7-8 kills with extra rolls :( ).

We didn't see a 2h agi weapon until a week or two after Ra-den died so that was fun.

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby feralminded » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 am

Stenhaldi wrote:To the people saying Re-Origination is better than Blades:

You need to account for crit chance. Re-Origination decreases crit chance by 11-14% while Renataki's increases crit chance by 12-15%. Remember that bleeds snapshot crit chance (as of 5.2).


You sir win the thread. /runsandhidesunderarock.
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby CrazyCatLady » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:33 am

Stenhaldi wrote:
Dysheki wrote:Hey now, I still have 0 TF items (normal OR heroic). I was lucky there but that's the only lucky part of this expansion for me (almost finished heroic MV without a weapon from LFR/normal/or heroic Kings and had to use a 463 weapon for most progression in that instance - never got heroic a Tsulong weapon, like 7-8 kills with extra rolls :( ).

We didn't see a 2h agi weapon until a week or two after Ra-den died so that was fun.


Our 2nd heroic Jin'rokh kill I got lucky with a coin and got HTF ring, yay! However, I still have not even SEEN the helm drop, not even on normal, and I've been using a coin every week since ToT opened!!!! /crieskittytears. Someone help a poor kitty out and pray to the loot gods to make one drop!

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby RareBeast » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:59 pm

This whole expansion, I have yet to have anything better than an LFR weapon :(

So many bosses and coins. And of course our resto druid now has a 522 Agi weapon because I wasn't there that night.....

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby CrazyCatLady » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:54 am

RareBeast wrote:This whole expansion, I have yet to have anything better than an LFR weapon :(

So many bosses and coins. And of course our resto druid now has a 522 Agi weapon because I wasn't there that night.....


At least it dropped for your raid, I feel your pain that you weren't there to get it. /kittyhugs I haven't missed a raid since ToT opened and the Jin'rokh helm has never dropped. :(

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Dysheki » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:27 pm

Oh, btw, my alt rogue now has 1 more piece of TF gear than my druid after 2 normal ToT clears (who still has 0). He also got 8 Runes in two weeks so at this pace I'll get the cloak next week.

-_-

I apologize for what this thread turned into.
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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby KevinDGAF » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:47 am

What have you guys done to my thread? :'(

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby Cerise » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:08 am

Dysheki wrote: BUT I FINALLY GOT MY 12TH RUNESTONE BECAUSE OF THE RECENT GUARANTEE MECHANICS YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH


I'm sitting at 4 runestones. I've been at 3 runestones forever till they implemented that Lei-Sen guaranteed drop thing. At this rate, I'll get the cloak next expansion. FU Blizzard. :lol:

I do however have 5 HC TF pieces. :P

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Re: TF Rune + Heroic Ren

Postby raffy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:10 pm

In an attempt to save this thread :p, next Catus will allow you produce the entire proc table for Rip and Rake, specific to your gear, procs, buffs, spec, etc.

Rip table for Edgy: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... pTable.txt
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