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New Blizzard Topic

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New Blizzard Topic

Postby Lyones » Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:47 pm

I Think We Need to make another post at Blizzard Forum (Hello Tinder o/) to adress some of our current issues, Like:
***Tinderhoof: And here it is! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9377319235
How the loss of NS affect or opener and it`s unecessary (for PvE) and how NS can be nerferd for PvP (If need it). Moonkins just got NS back, so I think we can have a little hope

Also about that ugly 4pt bonus that could be much better, as one of you suggested: "when you use tiger`s fury your next finisher with full power (aka, 5 combo points) and don`t consume combo points" or how it sounds better.

These are my two concerns for patch 5.4, and we barely have any post in blizzard forum about it.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby baver » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:20 pm

i think they should just nerf the 50% more healing for NS and its all good for ferals.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Dysheki » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:50 pm

I think the loss of NS is really small from a PvE DPS standpoint. It is a nerf for feral dps, without a doubt, but honestly I used NS more for the heals/rebirth than anything else. It is a big deal losing it on the opener (and will suck on any fight where a boss starts out low or near 25%) but I honestly used NS very sparingly throughout the normal course of a fight.
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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:12 am

I am writing one up that will include NS, Glyphs and the new talent. This is the first weekend in 3 months I haven't had to work, so I am trying to enjoy a little of it. Should be out sometime tomorrow.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:43 pm

The new feedback thread is posted. I am putting it in the first post too so folks can find it.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9377319235
Please provide constructive feedback and opinions. Remember to be polite!

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Alpheus » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:35 pm

Don't have a US char to post there but well said, Tinder.

I'm not sure whether this fits into this specific thread or if someone could post it on my behalf but I would like a couple more issues addressed (or perhaps considered in the future):

1. Soothe is currently our only utility spell which is not covered by Nature's Swiftness and Predatory Swiftness. While Enrages haven't been prevalent this expansion, its clumsy usage still remains. Feral druids have always been problematic in the CC/utility deparment and it always takes more than a couple expansions to get minor changes addressed (enchants in forms, consumables, barkskin, nature's grasp...). If it's a baseline utility spell all specs should be able to use it without being hindered or threatened from its use (think tanking bears). If enrage effects are moot then just remove it entirely.

2. Symbiosis while being more of a quality-of-life spell it is still very clutch in arenas and high-end raiding encounters. Problems arise when the utility of this spell depends on what classes you have in your raid and you're missing a specific class (ie. for Heroic Lei Shen, Horridon, Jin'Rokh ...). This is especially important for 10mans. Out of the list of "spells" to choose from most are completely useless yet some are almost required. If anything, I would urge the dev team to reconsider this ability (being replaced by perhaps a normalized utility/defensive spell) or at least tune certain class/spec combinations to give several variations of a similar spell (ie. a dispersion-like, soul-swap-like abilities being accessible from multiple classes).

3. (This is heroic PVE-specific) Multi-target ramp-up time for single- and medium-burst on 2-3 targets are very set bonus and trinket dependent this tier (one RNG being getting the drops in the first place, the second factor being that the procs are beyond the player's control). We've managed to leverage this with T15 4set and smart use of symbiosis (especially warlocks and rogues) this tier but it still feels rather clutch. Now add to this the erratic UI behavior of Swipe-generated combo points when swapping targets and you're bound for trouble. Something as basic as this in my opinion shouldn't be left at the mercy of:
a) lucky drops on set tokens (4 of them)
b) specialized community-driven add-ons (which have become a serious requirement for any impactful feral raiding)
c) trinket RNG, symbiosis raid setup "RNG" and not to mention the proposed OoC-reliant bonus on the new T16 set

I feel like something should be said about the need to rely on addon-specific bleed ratios but I'm feeling we're trying to solve too many problems at once.

---- Wishful thinking:

4. Bear Hug... Somewhere someone forgot to read some design memo and this went into production. I can't imagine a more bottle-necked spell with such low overall usage (a PvP immobilizing channeled stun in bear form which does pitiful damage).

5. I personally very much liked bear-weaving (dancing into bear form to throws some mangle/thrash for aoe) in HoF and MSV last tier. Now that Bear and Cat form performance is segregated to their own specs, perspectively, maybe it's time to introduce some utility dps bear abilities which would be useful for cats (bear-catting with hotw, displacer beast, etc. is already a reality for guardians, why not vice versa?). Thinking of something along the lines of a TF-like (30sec) bear ability which spreads a single rake onto a nearby target and deals some damage (or perhaps allows us to pool +20 extra energy to minimize dps losses during downtime).
The autoattack and GCD penalties would have to be solved gracefully though. People can already cheat this by using Might of Ursoc/Incarnation and Dash for bear/cat. See no reason why we should have double standards in this regard.


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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Whitepaw » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:37 am

@Tinder:

I enjoy the difference between Mangle/Shred - especially in PvP. What others consider a huge inconvenience (positional requirement for Shred) is actually quite good in PvP, as you can spam Shred and only fire it off when behind the target. Saves you from dodge/parry and the wasted GCD from that :lol:

It used to be even better, because some defensive cooldowns could be defeated if you hit the target from behind. I killed many Hunters that way, when they considered themselves safe from melee. In PvE, being behind your target still gives you a decent dps boost compared to being dodged/parried by the boss.

@Alpheus

Soothe is actually quite good in PvP. I would like for it to be fired in forms, taking the route of so many other instant-cast spells in the past (Nature's Grasp, Faire Fire, PS procs etc).

I agree with your wish for a look at Symbiosis. Also, it's not very intuitive to use. Limiting the options to the competitive and viable ones would fix that as well.

I believe Bear Hug could do considerable damage at some point, dunno if they nerfed that. I still don't get the ability, though. What's the point, exactly? I would rather have had abilities that allows the bear to have some more utility, especially while tanking. Instead of allowing that, the devs are considering to remove NS :roll:

I like your thoughts about using both cat and bear form. Sadly, the removal of NS from Feral/Guardian is a step away from this line of thought. I know that "bearcatting" was deemed overpowered - and maybe it was on certain bosses. On the other hand, it rewarded the player who was able to manage several roles in each fight. I like HotW, I just think it lasts too long and has a far too long CD (20 sec uptime/3 min CD would be better).

I would like to see PS procs @ 15 sec (no Cyclone with PS procs) and NS as a talent, exactly like it is on Live. I would also like for FoN to be just 1 Treant (with a 3 sec Bash), on a 30 sec CD. That way, we would avoid the 3 x FoN stunning an entire 3s team w/o a GCD!

What do you mean by
People can already cheat this by using Might of Ursoc/Incarnation and Dash for bear/cat.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Alpheus » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:54 am

Whitepaw wrote:What do you mean by
People can already cheat this by using Might of Ursoc/Incarnation and Dash for bear/cat.


Since they are "defensive" cooldowns they do not trigger the GCD and because you are required to be in their respective forms to use them, using dash/MoU will force you into cat/bear form without incurring a GCD penalty for shifting (at least this was the case back when I was using this in HOF, I haven't had any reason to use this recently in ToT).
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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:20 am

Whitepaw wrote:I would also like for FoN to be just 1 Treant (with a 3 sec Bash), on a 30 sec CD. That way, we would avoid the 3 x FoN stunning an entire 3s team w/o a GCD!

I think the current version -- with 3 charges -- has the potential to be interesting in PvE because you can hold charges to align with trinket procs and the like. Only problem, and the reason I've never tried them, is that this only works with agi/haste/crit procs and not mastery procs (re-origination actually makes treants worse for its duration).

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Whitepaw » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:48 pm

Maybe let Treant use Rake in its rotation?

Also, the damage should be raised accordingly, if going from 3 to 1 Treant.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Stenhaldi » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:08 am

Whitepaw wrote:Also, the damage should be raised accordingly, if going from 3 to 1 Treant.

Well the point is if you reduce it to 1 charge, then you have to use it on cooldown. With 3 charges there is the ability to pool them, which makes the spell more interesting.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Whitepaw » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:31 am

Stenhaldi wrote:
Whitepaw wrote:Also, the damage should be raised accordingly, if going from 3 to 1 Treant.

Well the point is if you reduce it to 1 charge, then you have to use it on cooldown. With 3 charges there is the ability to pool them, which makes the spell more interesting.


...but this is problematic from a PvP PoV, because of the CC component of the talent.

The next logical step would then be to remove the CC component completely, but then you degrade the talent too much when compared to Incarnation, where you can use Pounce.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby aggixx » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:41 pm

It already has 3 charges on live, Stenhaldi isn't talking about future or potential changes. And yes, it is a problem in PvP, hence why it's getting nerfed next patch to root the target instead of stun them.
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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Cetlysm » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:14 pm

aggixx wrote:It already has 3 charges on live, Stenhaldi isn't talking about future or potential changes. And yes, it is a problem in PvP, hence why it's getting nerfed next patch to root the target instead of stun them.

I through that was a buff because the stun is always on DR with everything including bash and therefore useless in 3s.
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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:25 pm

I have just updated this thread with some new feedback about energy capping during Berserk. The problem we keep having with our feedback this time around is that only 1-2 people comment then the thread drops to 3rd or 4th page and anyone who doesn't read these forums never sees it. It would be super helpful if everyone here could at least post just one time. You don't have to be in depth, but having more voices agree, or disagree helps a lot. I know we have lots of non NA folks here. If there isn't a thread like this on the EU forums start one. Even if you just steal my post and make what ever changes you like, its still adding more volume to our feedback.

Another thing that would be helpful is I have seen a few people comment about FoN being made better so we have a PVE option other than SotF. That's great discussion. The only problem is it's happening here and not out there. While I have a feeling we have been read by Blizzard employees before, I doubt it's as focused as it is on the PTR forums. Let's get any ideas folks have up there and keep this thread moving.

If anyone feels like our feedback isn't heard just remember how we were able to get the DoC change reversed. Let's bring the same energy to this has we had last time and we are much more likely to see some movement. Thanks everyone.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby teddabear » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:22 am

Tons of glyph changes Thursday. Zilch for Feral. Need more posts in this thread.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:00 pm

New 4p update:
•Item - Druid T16 Feral 4P Bonus After using Tiger's Fury, your next finishing move will restore 3 combo points on your current target after being used.

I really hope this is a result of the below Lore quote.
Note: There is a possibility that the next PTR build will have a number of other changes that we were considering, but have since decided not to go ahead with. Should that happen, they will be reverted in the build after next.

Regardless please get on the US thread and raise hell about this. If there isn't an EU thread, make one. Please we need all the support we can get here.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9377319235?page=5#87

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Dysheki » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:18 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:I really hope this is a result of the below Lore quote.
Note: There is a possibility that the next PTR build will have a number of other changes that we were considering, but have since decided not to go ahead with. Should that happen, they will be reverted in the build after next.

I would hope because if not I would have the desire to fly to California to punch a few devs in the balls.
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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:06 pm

New Lore Tweet:
Code: Select all
Josh Allen ‏@devolore
Seems like there's a lot of weird/incorrect/outdated datamining going on in this build. Grain of salt, etc.

Fingers crossed. Even if it is wrong information (please please please) the continued lack of any information or changes is really becoming demoralizing and frustrating. If we don't seem some changes really quickly we won't have time on the PTR to test and give adequate feedback before they lock mechanic changes down.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Oblivion » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:15 am

Tinderhoof wrote:I really hope this is a result of the below Lore quote.
Note: There is a possibility that the next PTR build will have a number of other changes that we were considering, but have since decided not to go ahead with. Should that happen, they will be reverted in the build after next.

That quote is most likely only about mistweaver mana regen changes.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... page=9#165

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby aggixx » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:43 am

Probably not. Lore's tweet was immediately after the datamined info was posted on MMO-Champion where the link you posted was earlier than that and referring to a Mana Tea change in the build prior to that.
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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby raffy » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:49 am

I just did some quick analysis w/T16 Gear: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2989349/54Gear.png
DoC:
w/o 2p+4p: 259299
w/only 2p: 265717 (2.4%)
w/only 4p: 266822 (2.9%)
w/2p+4p@1cp: 268118 (3.4%)
w/2p+4p@2cp: 270792 (4.4%)
w/2p+4p@3cp: 271709 (4.7%)
w/2p+4p@4cp: 271912 (4.9%)
w/2p+4p@5cp: 272311 (5.0%)

HotW:
w/2p+4p@5cp: 273859 (5.6%)

HotW > DoC single-target does not make me happy.

I still need to try using Secondaries (for 1:1:1), do more HotW testing, and try other trinket combinations. I also forgot to enable Springs in my analysis (I'm adding an auto-enchant Button + profession-based Audit warning to Catus to prevent this), and I guess I should pick an off-set piece (I'm using 5p), and upgrade the legendary cloak. I'll have better results soon.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby ShmooDude » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:54 pm

raffy wrote:I just did some quick analysis w/T16 Gear: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2989349/54Gear.png
<snip>

HotW > DoC single-target does not make me happy.

I still need to try using Secondaries (for 1:1:1), do more HotW testing, and try other trinket combinations. I also forgot to enable Springs in my analysis (I'm adding an auto-enchant Button + profession-based Audit warning to Catus to prevent this), and I guess I should pick an off-set piece (I'm using 5p), and upgrade the legendary cloak. I'll have better results soon.


Doesn't surprise me too much honestly. Given that simcraft currently uses NS about 5 times in an average 7.5 minute fight, that's a lot of lost damage. It doesn't really make a difference for me cause I generally prefer raiding HotW but I know this will upset a lot of other ferals.

If they insist on removing NS (honestly I'd prefer they just removed cyclone from it and leave it at that; I like it as my healing cd from that tier), they probably need to buff DoC to 30% (maybe even 35%) to remain competitive.

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby baver » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:09 pm

wow, dident think hotw would be ahead becouse of that NS change. I realy hope blizzard start doing somting with doc and NV so we dont end up like we did with sotf

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Re: New Blizzard Topic

Postby Alpheus » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:55 am

raffy wrote:I just did some quick analysis w/T16 Gear: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2989349/54Gear.png
DoC:
w/o 2p+4p: 259299
w/only 2p: 265717 (2.4%)
w/only 4p: 266822 (2.9%)
w/2p+4p@1cp: 268118 (3.4%)
w/2p+4p@2cp: 270792 (4.4%)
w/2p+4p@3cp: 271709 (4.7%)
w/2p+4p@4cp: 271912 (4.9%)
w/2p+4p@5cp: 272311 (5.0%)

HotW:
w/2p+4p@5cp: 273859 (5.6%)

HotW > DoC single-target does not make me happy.

I still need to try using Secondaries (for 1:1:1), do more HotW testing, and try other trinket combinations. I also forgot to enable Springs in my analysis (I'm adding an auto-enchant Button + profession-based Audit warning to Catus to prevent this), and I guess I should pick an off-set piece (I'm using 5p), and upgrade the legendary cloak. I'll have better results soon.


Thinking out of the box here, what about HotW + Incarnation with the dps cooldown reduction trinket and another non-rune trinket. My napkin math tells me such a setup would heavily favor agility-based bonuses and gearing (agi in sockets, mastery reforge). That is, of course, if the dps cooldown trinket also lowered incarnation if taken (which it should tbh). If not, nevermind :)
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