Register

FB Suggestion

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:48 am

FB Suggestion

Postby Stune » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:45 pm

Hey, I posted a reply to the state of feral dps on the battle.net forums, thought I would copy and paste it over here to see what y'all think.

I agree that FB needs to be worth using again. I like the idea of high skill caps. I also feel like feral damage is a little too low. I believe that a straight damage buff to FB could lead to poor pvp balance. That is why I am going to propose a change that does more than just makes FB worth using, but will also raise the skill cap and provide a slight buff to those that can pull off the rotation well.

Ferocious Bite now also increases all damage done by 2% per combo point for 30 sec.

A 10% buff to all damage? Are you insane?
Maybe a little, but that's irrelevant.
1. We are more than 10% below the top classes.
2. It does not translate to a straight 10% buff. Factor in the initial DPS loss for using FB above 25% right now, plus the added mistakes that are going to come with a more complex rotation, plus the realistic uptime on the damage buff and it becomes much less significant. (This could probably get pushed to 4% per combo point without putting us on top of DPS. But I don't want to get greedy.)

Hmm.. 30 sec, that seems kind of short. Sounds like it would be hard to keep up.
1. Yeah, that's kind of the idea.
2. At lower gear levels, keeping it up all the time will probably be unrealistic, but as your haste and crit increase, you will see longer uptimes.

But I don't want more complexity. Can't we just get a damage buff without making things harder?
1. Maybe. I wouldn't complain, but I still like the idea of higher skill caps.

The tier 11 4pc adds complexity. Having both could just be too much.
1. If you have the 4pc, you are probably a good enough player to not be concerned with it being too much.
2. You will get rid of your 4pc in the next tier anyway, so that is just a temporary concern.

There is a lot to this, but I feel it would be a nice change. I may be alone in that, but I like the idea of a more complex rotation.

On a side note, I'd like to see the energy cost of swipe drop a little. The damage on it is great (berserk swipe spam ftw), but the energy cost is just too much for any sustained aoe.

Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:11 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby Apho » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:21 pm

I doubt it would ever happen, but I wouldn't be opposed to it either.

Blizzard doesn't think we need what would be a 10% buff to our damage. We should do what we can to change that attitude, but we're much more likely to see small incremental changes to our class than we are to see sweeping redesigns, from where I'm standing. My focus has been on getting Blizzard to see that there is a problem in the first place - I'm still not sure if they do.

Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby Golle » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:38 pm

It's not about having to rely on FB to do more DPS, it's about being able to get that FB off in the middle of your rotation that's the cool part. Your suggestion will force us to use FB's, which will lower the uptime of Rip because we probably won't be able to get CP's fast enough, atleast not at lower gear levels.

Honored
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby felhoof » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:33 pm

The problem is that this boosts the thing cats are arguably fine at - standing still and doing damage. If you can sit there and get your dots up and then do a FB some of the time, refresh dots, etc - you're talking a multi-minute rotation. And in those situations cats are arguably pretty good.

It's when you get disrupted that this is a problem. Well, that and cat AOE damage. Having to build up an additional source of extra damage to boost your damage only to have that disrupted - well, you've seen that already, it's called the 4pT11. It's fine if you can stand there for a while, but if it falls off every 30 seconds to a minute it's not worth the mangles quite often. This is worse.

What this would do, I think, is make it so that you could point to that Patchwerk fight and say SEE, FERALS ARE FINE when in reality 90% of encounters would get almost no benefit from this specific boost whatsoever - and that assumes you have the high stats to boost it. Plus it still makes FB a shitty thing to use by itself from the energy perspective.

FB needs a boost to make FB actually useful. It doesn't need more synergy to do so.

Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:16 am

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby CaptainCub » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:30 am

We really need to stop shredding at 5 combo pts. It's driving me crazy :o
I like your idea a lot, since Ferals have always accepted that we take a bigger dps hit than others when switching targets if and only if, pulling off a perfect rotation, we can top the dps charts on a standstill Patchwerk style fight... and that's no longer true.

Honored
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby felhoof » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:19 pm

since Ferals have always accepted that we take a bigger dps hit than others when switching targets if and only if, pulling off a perfect rotation, we can top the dps charts on a standstill Patchwerk style fight
Which shouldn't be the thing you're aiming to get back at. That was one of the biggest quality of life issues with ferals. Having the goal of getting back to a point where ferals suck except on fights where they can sit still and go nuts on is stupid.

Ferals should, really, be very good on movement fights. They have a ton of damage from bleeds, they have great mobility and movement options. That they aren't is an artifact of all the things they need to get up and running on a boss before the bleeds start doing well - 5 CP + mangle (and mangle is a DPS loss) + the 4pT11 boost right now. You're suggesting that for optimal bleed damage you do manglex3, 10 CP total, and then wait for TF to use rip. That's horrible.

What I'd like to see FB turn into is a valuable alternative to rip. Right now FB should be the short term finishing move when rip won't tick for 24 seconds for whatever reason. Right now that's a dumb thing to do; you'd be better off shredding and using those CP for a later SR if needed. The trick is to make FB work well while not making it insane for PvP, and that's a tough one to work around; you want it to be great at burst for PvE but meh on burst for PvP. Blood in the Water somewhat helps here, but more things like that are needed.

Really, increasing the damage by 10% would probably be good enough. Changing the glyph so that it removed excess energy use but increased the damage or crit would also likely work, since PVPers would want the energy consumption for burst more than anything and pvers would be fine doing more DPE.

Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:46 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby cig.nature » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:01 pm

CaptainCub wrote:We really need to stop shredding at 5 combo pts. It's driving me crazy :o.

Agreed.

I'd like to throw out a solution I think would be interesting.

Buff Maim, that's right, Maim.

I'm thinking a Deep Freeze Style mechanic. If the target is permanently stun immune, (I.E. a boss), it increases your bleed damage on the target by x% for 1 sec per combo point. The damage and/or duration could be tweaked as required so it is roughly the same DPE as Savage Roar on a stand still fight.

This would add damage to PvE, give us something to spend those extra combo points on. And all without making us OP in PvP.

What do you guys think?

Honored
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby felhoof » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:11 pm

Why not just change it to make it a glyph, so that glyph of maim adds a buff to make your bleeds do 10% more damage? That'd be likely a bit more modular and allow for turning the functionality off and on on a per-encounter basis for a feral on the off-chance that they want a maim stun.

Though it'd have to have a kind of absurd duration to make that useful. And at that point you're basically taking savage roar and turning it back into what it was, which I'm not sure is all that great - maim woudln't be doing damage by itself, so you'd be spending 5CP to buff bleeds and you'd need to reapply your bleeds right away - meaning you'd be in a similar situation to what you had to do with SR except you'd have to do it only with 5CP.

So that would look like this:
build to 5CP, no bleeds, wait to almost 100 energy: maim, 5CP (including rake), rip, possibly doing so via TF.

It's an interesting idea and one I like a lot more than the FB boost, but I'd still like to see a finishing move that does damage do more damage than a combo generator does and be useful outside of PvP/solo content.

Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:46 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby cig.nature » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:21 pm

felhoof wrote:So that would look like this:
build to 5CP, no bleeds, wait to almost 100 energy: maim, 5CP (including rake), rip, possibly doing so via TF.
That's not how to appeared in my mind. The buff to bleeds, in my imagination, applied to existing bleeds. Like the mangle debuff.
Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

Honored
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby felhoof » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:29 pm

Ah, I got ya. So it'd be a mangle-er buff. Would it also buff other people's bleeds?

It's likely that wouldn't fly simply because they're trying to not have too many buffs/debuffs out there on the targets, and if it's not on the target you'd need to reapply the effect to gain the boost. Also, adding a debuff to the boss that only helps ferals is a problem. Finally, what do you do with multiple ferals? Do they have a maimbitch like they used to have a manglebitch, and one feral gets to just...not maim?

Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:46 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby cig.nature » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:36 pm

felhoof wrote:Ah, I got ya. So it'd be a mangle-er buff. Would it also buff other people's bleeds?

To prevent the mangle-er bitch scenario, I had imagined it would be a self buff only. Not applying to other characters.

Thanks for the feedback, I figured there must be some problem with the idea, since I hadn't seen others suggesting it. ;)

Revered
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby ShmooDude » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:04 pm

What we need is the ability to do higher damage on short duration (30 second or less) fights (usually adds). After that we might need a minor damage boost but if you look at raidbots.com and look at the individual fights rather than overall, you'll see that add fights are where we really suffer.

From Raidbots.com

Heroic Magmaw:
Cats are bad, really bad. This is due to the fact that there are adds that die fairly quickly and even when the head comes down its only long enough for one bleed (second is a waste).

Heroic Omnitron:
Not TOO bad here, though still pretty much the bottom tier melee (can't compare to ranged due to puddles). Also likely due to adds.

Heroic Maloriak:
AoE fight, ours is bad, nothing new here... moving on...

Heroic Atramedes:
Bottom Tier melee, some adds

Heroic Chimeron:
We compete here, mostly due to low penalty on missing

Heroic Halfus:
Doesn't count...

Heroic Twin Dragons:
Middle tier melee, due to being a straight forward fight for melee and the use of Stampede on cooldown.

NORMAL Council: (because heroic doesn't have enough data)
All melee seems to do about the same except Enhancement and DKs who are 3k ahead for some reason.

NORMAL Cho'gal:
Mid/high melee, adds at the end don't make up for the fact that we can faceroll forever on the boss through the first phase.

Heroic Conclave:
Mid/high melee, our extra movement speed helps a lot here.

NORMAL Al'akir:
Middle melee, not surprising given we have to mangle 80% of the fight

Baradin Hold: (as basic as it gets)
Bottom melee if you only count one spec per class. Though really 2 "tiers" the 26k tier and the 24k "tier" so being "bottom" isn't as bad as it sounds its almost a 4 way tie (with 3 in the top tier).



So, what would this ability look like? Well, its kind of a mash of mechanics from other classes (but what abilities aren't now a days, lol)

Face Smash (cause I'm bad at making names)
40 energy
Smashes your face into the target dealing 460% Physical damage plus 1449. In addition, you deal an additional 100% of the Physical damage done as Bleed damage over 2 seconds. The act of smashing your face into the target removes all of your other bleeds from the target.

Face Smash also allows the use of Ferocious Bite without combo points and reduces its energy cost by 10 energy. Stacks 3 times.



Assuming I did the math right (which I probably didn't), This ability (in combination with its discounted FB) would do about 90% of the damage of Shred, Rake and Rip combined. It also has no lingering effects (ie leaving bleeds on a target going out of range) which are usually beneficial unless your target is going to die. Note, it does not generate combo points (not unlike swipe, but its designed with that in mind).

This shouldn't have too big an impact on PvP (I hope) as traditional bleeds are going to be superior when uptime is a problem. Yes the discounted ferocious bites are nice for burst but what are you going to do afterwards? Theres no bleeds up on the target and you're down to 30 or less energy (40 energy for FS and 40 for a full FB) so if it doesn't kill the target, its over.

Honored
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby felhoof » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:06 am

Assuming I did the math right (which I probably didn't), This ability (in combination with its discounted FB) would do about 90% of the damage of Shred, Rake and Rip combined. It also has no lingering effects (ie leaving bleeds on a target going out of range) which are usually beneficial unless your target is going to die. Note, it does not generate combo points (not unlike swipe, but its designed with that in mind).
Too good for PvP. Doing this with a TF and a rip/rake combo is potentially a global kill.

Plus you don't want to do something that removes bleeds. That solves one problem but doesn't deal with the issue of using all those extra combo points on bosses when you want to FB but shredding is 'better' currently.

Revered
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby ShmooDude » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:30 pm

felhoof wrote:
Assuming I did the math right (which I probably didn't), This ability (in combination with its discounted FB) would do about 90% of the damage of Shred, Rake and Rip combined. It also has no lingering effects (ie leaving bleeds on a target going out of range) which are usually beneficial unless your target is going to die. Note, it does not generate combo points (not unlike swipe, but its designed with that in mind).
Too good for PvP. Doing this with a TF and a rip/rake combo is potentially a global kill.

Plus you don't want to do something that removes bleeds. That solves one problem but doesn't deal with the issue of using all those extra combo points on bosses when you want to FB but shredding is 'better' currently.


Uhm, I don't understand how you can do this with a "Rip/Rake combo." It removes those debuffs the second you use this ability (which you note in your second line). Am I missing something here?

Here's a breakdown of the damage (based on a training dummy)

Its a mangle that bleeds out another 100% (150%+ with raid geared mastery) over 2 seconds (1 second ticks). How hard does a mangle hit? In raid gear vs a target dummy (anyone with decent resilience will get hit less hard than that) the hardest hit I've come up with is a 25k crit (that's with ilvl 363 raid gear, Unheeded warning proc and TF up; normal crits are in the 15k range). Tack on another 150% that comes to 62.5k over 3 seconds (initial hit + 2 seconds later).

Shred under those same conditions will hit for ~35.6k or 55% of that ability for the same energy, BUT can have your other bleeds going at the same time for 10k every 2 and 3 seconds resulting in fairly similar burst potential there.

A full FB crit for me hits for ~43k. Remember though that to get the full disocunt (30 energy off, for a 40 energy full FB crit) you have to spend 120 energy on Face Smash first for a totaly of 160 energy per cycle (and as soon as you start that cycle, you have no other bleeds).

If PvP burst is truly a concern, it could easily be rebalanced as a 50 energy ability with a 3 second bleed (still with 1 second ticks). Though this would require far more micromanagement not to clip the bleed portion of the ability (with a 2 second duration you can use 2 in a row and then have to wait for the 3rd so clipping would rarely be a problem as you just spent 80 energy most likely).

Also you are correct in that this does not really do anything for the fact that FB has no use above 25%. This was more of trying to fix our PvE DPS problems while giving FB a use.

Honored
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby felhoof » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:19 pm

\
Uhm, I don't understand how you can do this with a "Rip/Rake combo." It removes those debuffs the second you use this ability (which you note in your second line). Am I missing something here?
I'm saying that if you do something like pool energy, go rake->rip at 5CP->TF->5CP FB that's TF-boosted, you're getting about 80% of a rip, 70% of a rake, and a full FB all TF-boosted. If that's a crit that's a huge amount of damage - we're talking 80-90k range. And that's not balanced in PvP.

Revered
Posts: 448
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:30 pm

felhoof wrote:
\
Uhm, I don't understand how you can do this with a "Rip/Rake combo." It removes those debuffs the second you use this ability (which you note in your second line). Am I missing something here?
I'm saying that if you do something like pool energy, go rake->rip at 5CP->TF->5CP FB that's TF-boosted, you're getting about 80% of a rip, 70% of a rake, and a full FB all TF-boosted. If that's a crit that's a huge amount of damage - we're talking 80-90k range. And that's not balanced in PvP.


Ah, I see. I figured the FB energy discount would be a short duration (like 5 seconds max, really you'd only ever use it within 2 seconds so that your bleed is still up). Could also add the caveat that Face Smash removes all Combo Points from the target to prevent people from pooling up then using FS. This is supposed to be a completely alternative rotation, not one to supplement. Thourgh really its all an intellectual exercise cuz the chances of Blizzard actually doing anything even remotely similar to this is nil.

Revered
User avatar
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:12 am

Re: FB Suggestion

Postby Qbear » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:52 am

FB use to be the make or break for a feral druid playing at their highest level. I'd love to see it go back to that mentality and really mean something to a feral using his combo points and bleeds as they were meant to be used.

FB does a, b, c, d ,e damage based on combo points on the target.

Glyph of FB: Your FB tries to finish off a wounded foe dealing X% xtra damage per (your) bleed effects on the target.

It would make our major glyphs mean a lot more then they do now while adding some complexity to the rotation again. OF course only worth it if the glyph increased FB to a number much higher dpe then shred.

Return to Kitty DPS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Feedfetcher and 8 guests