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Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide / FAQ

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Alpheus » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:41 pm

ShmooDude wrote:
Alpheus wrote:On PTR I'm noticing a lot of RoRo procs now that the ICD is reduced. Literally every pull goes something like this: RoRo + Blades, RoRo, RoRo, back-to-back. I understand that it might be due to the bad luck streak prevention (at least the first proc) and then just luck from the others, but I had 4 pulls in the past 15 minutes and every one of them was exactly like this. Getting a RoRo proc after a previous RoRo really serves no purpose since both Rip and rake will be up with sufficient uptime.


Maybe for DoC, but HotW largely spams Rake during rune for more DPS (to the point where rake is our number 1 damage done where as its Rip for DoC).

Also, it might (almost defiantly) be worth trying to clip a rip early at the tail end of a rune proc to keep a strong bleed up. This wasn't worth simming before because with the ICD basically ensured that "back to back" rune procs would result in an overwrite anyhow (with 22 seconds being about the Rip duration anyhow).


Yeh exactly, was running HotW mostly due to the lag on PTR (about ~400ms) and was keeping Rake up efficiently as I could (clipping at about +12-15%) but I haven't been tracking the 2set yet so I haven't really made up my mind about what to use at that point (ie. what % of RoRo rake is better than 2set shred). Still, 3 back-to-back RoRos make combo point generation extremely difficult (on that note, 4set is awesome).
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:07 pm

Two things here:
ShmooDude wrote:Maybe for DoC, but HotW largely spams Rake during rune for more DPS (to the point where rake is our number 1 damage done where as its Rip for DoC).

You're miss understanding why HotW spams Rake so much more than DoC. DoC is much less likely to spam rake because it's generally more damage not to due to increased periodic damage dwarfing the increased direct damage. The implication here to me, if anything, would be that DoC gets a higher benefit from rake damage out of a single RoR proc than HotW does.

Secondly, when you receive "back-to-back" (or close to) procs, those procs are more or less free and do not harm the uptime that the trinket had in the past. On live servers the 10 seconds that the proc is active and the 2 second following it provide no chance for it proc again, only the last 10 seconds of the 22 second ICD do, whereas on PTR the trinket loses only a fraction of a second of uptime to the ICD.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Alpheus » Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:24 pm

aggixx wrote:Two things here:
ShmooDude wrote:Maybe for DoC, but HotW largely spams Rake during rune for more DPS (to the point where rake is our number 1 damage done where as its Rip for DoC).

You're miss understanding why HotW spams Rake so much more than DoC. DoC is much less likely to spam rake because it's generally more damage not to due to increased periodic damage dwarfing the increased direct damage. The implication here to me, if anything, would be that DoC gets a higher benefit from rake damage out of a single RoR proc than HotW does.

Secondly, when you receive "back-to-back" (or close to) procs, those procs are more or less free and do not harm the uptime that the trinket had in the past. On live servers the 10 seconds that the proc is active and the 2 second following it provide no chance for it proc again, only the last 10 seconds of the 22 second ICD do, whereas on PTR the trinket loses only a fraction of a second of uptime to the ICD.


But if I just used a RoRo proc to apply a rip and a rake (perhaps 2 rakes) and get another proc I will no longer be using mastery-buffed abilities during the 2nd (and possibly 3rd) Rune. Isn't it a dps loss then to have the 2nd? Is it possible to cancel the proc
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:02 pm

You should be reapplying Rake and Thrash during the second proc, and clipping Rip at the end of it is also probably a good idea in most situations.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby ShmooDude » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:12 pm

aggixx wrote:Two things here:
ShmooDude wrote:Maybe for DoC, but HotW largely spams Rake during rune for more DPS (to the point where rake is our number 1 damage done where as its Rip for DoC).

You're miss understanding why HotW spams Rake so much more than DoC. DoC is much less likely to spam rake because it's generally more damage not to due to increased periodic damage dwarfing the increased direct damage. The implication here to me, if anything, would be that DoC gets a higher benefit from rake damage out of a single RoR proc than HotW does.

Secondly, when you receive "back-to-back" (or close to) procs, those procs are more or less free and do not harm the uptime that the trinket had in the past. On live servers the 10 seconds that the proc is active and the 2 second following it provide no chance for it proc again, only the last 10 seconds of the 22 second ICD do, whereas on PTR the trinket loses only a fraction of a second of uptime to the ICD.


Yeah, I know. But in relevance to "not clipping a back to back proc" since HotW largely spams Rake, its already getting clipped simply by using it as a filler where as a doc person likely needs to get DoC buff up before clipping (or simply clip it at the end as clipping rake is fairly trivial). That was my only point. As far as DoC getting more benefit out of it, yeah, doesn't surprise me at all as their bleeds are usually 25% stronger. The rake spam just helps close the gap slightly (by giving a couple thousand extra damage; not a lot).

aggixx wrote:You should be reapplying Rake and Thrash during the second proc, and clipping Rip at the end of it is also probably a good idea in most situations.


Have you modeled the Rip yet? Its almost certainly an up but would likely require another rip line. Something like:
Rip if rune is expiring and rip ratio >95

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Alpheus » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:45 pm

Reforges and Gems scale down differently with level adjustment in PTR. Was proccing haste for two hours. Anyone got a fool-proof way to reforge a reasonably high Rune for 530-540 ilvl adjustment down from 553 (8253/8252/8252 originally).
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Stenhaldi » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:02 pm

I just stocked up on adept/deadly/deft gems. Won't get optimal results but whatever, it's PTR.

It's not just that gems and reforges scale differently (I don't think gems scale at all, actually) -- it's that each piece of gear scales differently (since it depends on the starting item level of the slot and how many sockets it has).

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Alpheus » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:10 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:I just stocked up on adept/deadly/deft gems. Won't get optimal results but whatever, it's PTR.

It's not just that gems and reforges scale differently (I don't think gems scale at all, actually) -- it's that each piece of gear scales differently (since it depends on the starting item level of the slot and how many sockets it has).


Yeah, just ended up playing Renataki + AoC to test my proc tracking WA. It's a bit annoying when you forget to swap AoC to activate the cooldown reduction, but whatever.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby raffy » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:01 pm

Alpheus wrote:Anyone got a fool-proof way to reforge a reasonably high RoRo for 530-540 ilvl adjustment down from 553 (8253/8252/8252 originally).
You can custom ilvl scale any gear in Catus. The easiest way would be to get your character matched up in Catus at 553, and then in the upgrade menu, select "Custom Item Level" and scale each item down.

A much faster way would be to hit "Edit" and in the CompactGear code, remove any "+4" or "+8" and replace it with "i540" on each line.
(+### = relative scaling, i### = absolute scaling)

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby escyrial » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:03 am

Hey,

Im currently progressing 25m LeiShen HC.

Currently im using 2 HC Trinkets (Juju/Renataki). I also got the LFR RoR, but im not using it at the moment.

U think its more profit2use the LFR RoR instead of the HC Trinket?

Heres my Armory:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/f ... ial/simple

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Alpheus » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:43 am

escyrial wrote:Hey,

Im currently progressing 25m LeiShen HC.

Currently im using 2 HC Trinkets (Juju/Renataki). I also got the LFR RoR, but im not using it at the moment.

U think its more profit2use the LFR RoR instead of the HC Trinket?

Heres my Armory:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/f ... ial/simple


If you've never played Rune before then don't start on 25m Lei Shen HC, you have enough stuff to worry about there and will most likely just mess up your ball AoE dps. Judging from your logs your dps is fine as-is.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby escyrial » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:53 am

Alpheus wrote:If you've never played Rune before then don't start on 25m Lei Shen HC, you have enough stuff to worry about there and will most likely just mess up your ball AoE dps. Judging from your logs your dps is fine as-is.


I played Rune before. 1-2 Months with the LFRversion It's no problem at all... Just thought the overall dps could go a little higher.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Alpheus » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:12 am

escyrial wrote:
Alpheus wrote:If you've never played RoRo before then don't start on 25m Lei Shen HC, you have enough stuff to worry about there and will most likely just mess up your ball AoE dps. Judging from your logs your dps is fine as-is.


I played RoRo before. 1-2 Months with the LFRversion It's no problem at all... Just thought the overall dps could go a little higher.


Well you're approaching 70-something wipes. You'll probably be smashing keyboards for at least another ~100 so if you would replace blades with RoRo it would make your dps more random instead of consistently higher (whether it's actually higher on average would have to be simmed with your setup).

TL;DR: you'll be facing a lot of different proc scenarios for Rune and they will not determine whether or not you'll kill Lei Shen. If you're lacking consistently high dps and your raid leader is pushing everyone for improvements then going for LFR Rune might not be the best idea. Your warlocks, mages, shadow priests and warrior have very inconsistent dps (with your guild ilvl and 70 wipes on Lei Shen so far everyone of the same class should be about 2-3% next to each other on wipes which reaech 2nd intermission). Maybe you should look into that instead.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Stenhaldi » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:57 pm

Re-Origination tends to be less random than the other trinkets, not more, due to its higher proc rate. Well, maybe not the LFR version.

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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby Alpheus » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:45 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:Re-Origination tends to be less random than the other trinkets, not more, due to its higher proc rate. Well, maybe not the LFR version.


Yes but specifically for Lei Shen there's often situations (movement, aoe) where you just can't re-apply bleeds in 10 seconds.
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Re: Talent & Trinket Analysis (w/ Stat Weights!)

Postby aggixx » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:36 pm

I'm planning to restructure this thread into more of a FAQ / "important things to know" sort of thing. It will still have most of the content that is in it at the moment but in a different format, and also hopefully covering important topics that this forum distinctly lacks in terms of providing the material in an organized way.

I'm not looking to maintain a full-blown guide, but it will probably end up being quite similar to that.

Planning to cover things like:
  • What talents should I use?
    • And how do I use them?
  • What enchants should I use?
  • What are my stat weights / how do I reforge?
  • Is trinket A better than trinket B?
  • What is bleed clipping and how do I do it?
  • What is my rotation?
  • When do I replace Rune of Re-Origination?

Now obviously the first four are more or less already covered in the current topic. My question is, are there any other questions that you think would be appropriate for this thread that have a similar idea to the last three on the list? Please post any suggestions you may have, I would love to hear them.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide / FAQ (Under Construction!)

Postby enigmaran » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:22 pm

I think those questions cover the core issues people on this forum seem to be discussing. I don't post often but I've been reading them for a long time.

Only thing I might add is when to drop 2/4p T-15 for T-16 level gear

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide / FAQ (Under Construction!)

Postby RareBeast » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:58 pm

Perhaps a quick couple of points to the "Why is my DPS so bad" people. Things like :-

* Get your rip, rake & SR uptimes in the 90-95+% range
* Get your thrash >70% uptime
* Get a mod to monitor bleed strengths & don't overwrite strong bleeds etc

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide / FAQ (Under Construction!)

Postby Alpheus » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:24 pm

Don't forget useful macros like HotW weapon swaps, trinket/engineering/TF+berserk and perhaps even certain weak auras for procs (bleeds strengths, specific trinkets, etc.)
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide / FAQ (Under Construction!)

Postby ShmooDude » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:38 am

RareBeast wrote:Perhaps a quick couple of points to the "Why is my DPS so bad" people. Things like :-

* Get your rip, rake & SR uptimes in the 90-95+% range
* Get your thrash >70% uptime
* Get a mod to monitor bleed strengths & don't overwrite strong bleeds etc


Honestly, Thrash doesn't matter that much. Removing it from Simc completely only dropped DPS by 1.5% in the T16N profile and IIRC Thrash is less of a gain at lower gear levels. Bleed strengths on the other hand is a whopping 11%.

I would probably recommend a player having a hard time with DPS to not mess with Thrash, and only once they're comfortable with the rest of the rotation to start weaving them in.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide / FAQ (Under Construction!)

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:12 pm

ShmooDude wrote:Bleed strengths on the other hand is a whopping 11%.

And of course a smart player can do better than the sim at bleed clipping, so 12.5% up to even 15% seems fairly reasonable.

I'll make sure to put a brief section on "halp what do I do" in the FAQ.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide / FAQ (Under Construction!)

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:27 pm

Trinket rankings are more or less completed. As mentioned in the trinket section, there was a last minute change to Haromm's that is not yet accounted for in the charts.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide / FAQ (Under Construction!)

Postby Alpheus » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:19 am

aggixx wrote:Trinket rankings are more or less completed. As mentioned in the trinket section, there was a last minute change to Haromm's that is not yet accounted for in the charts.


I'm suprised AoC didn't make it to the top considering TED probably isn't handled to its full extent. Is the relative ranking of AoC vs. TED/Haromm's any better off for non-engineers (since for LW/alch or LW/ench the profession bonus doesn't lose its value)? Also, would either FoN or HotW skew these numbers around by any chance? I'm more interested in how changing T4/6's influences scaling.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide / FAQ (Under Construction!)

Postby aggixx » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:27 am

Alpheus wrote:I'm suprised AoC didn't make it to the top considering TED probably isn't handled to its full extent. Is the relative ranking of AoC vs. TED/Haromm's any better off for non-engineers (since for LW/alch or LW/ench the profession bonus doesn't lose its value)? Also, would either FoN or HotW skew these numbers around by any chance? I'm more interested in how changing T4/6's influences scaling.


If anything TED is overvalued in the sim because it can react to the change in it's own stats instantly whereas a human can't. There isn't much to "a massive buff the decays quickly" in terms of when to clip.

574/580 AoC has high enough CDR that your Springs line up again. Aside from that yes, other trinkets are probably marginally better than they would be for a non-engineer but it's not a huge factor.

HotW numbers are (probably) pretty similar. FoN is very different because it is incredibly reliant on trinket mechanics (ICDs, intervals, burst) to determine its usefulness. For example, 553 strict the best two trinkets for FoN are RoR and Renataki's because of their synergy and Rena's massive burst and reliability. Due to time restrictions I made an executive decision not to include those rankings for now because frankly FoN is pretty crappy, you have to work too hard for such a small, inflexible benefit that I don't see many people using it in most encounters. I will revisit adding those rankings soon if I turn out to be wrong about that.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide / FAQ (Under Construction!)

Postby raffy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:28 am

Finally found it! 4p ("Feral Rage") is not being applied to simc. That explains the extra FB's in Catus and the 10k+ DPS gap.
Edit: it looks like it's implemented in the source however, so I'm not sure what's wrong with it.
Edit: ah the spell data was missing.
Last edited by raffy on Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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