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Kitty in great need of help!

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Kitty in great need of help!

Postby Nimodii » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:35 am

I've been running mew over and over to try and find which stat I should go for, haste or crit.
And whenever I think I've found a good mix mew tells me that all of a sudden haste is more valuable than crit. So I go for haste instead and mew suddenly says that I should go for crit. And this has been screwing with my mind quite a bit.


So any help at all would be very much appreciated. I'll post a armory link below and if something else is missing just give tell me.


http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/o ... i/advanced

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby Golle » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:22 am

It's a balancing act. You want crit and haste to be equally worth each other.

Du vill helt enkelt att haste och crit ska vara lika mycket värda. Det är dock inte jättefarligt om det ena är värt 0.01 mer än det andra.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby ShmooDude » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:53 am

Basically it depends on your gear. I *think* that haste essentially overtakes crit at some point in the heroic(?) gearing point? Might be earlier, I'm unsure. But what Mew is telling you to do is correct for a Patchwerk scenario. Honestly, I'd favor crit a little more than haste if they're fairly close since lingering dots can crit but haste drops off if you're away from the boss (which happens umpteen times this tier). You could probably actually sim that too if you tweaked the "leave for Ravage" time to something like 5 seconds for low melee uptime fights. *shrug* Haven't played with mew in a while.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby shinryu » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:52 pm

I think haste overtakes crit in heroic 372 gear, crit and haste are roughly equal in normal 359s, and crit is better than haste pre-raid. Or something like that for generalization.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby Arctagon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:42 pm

I don't think it's sufficient to come with such generalisations any longer. I myself am in mostly blue gear and have had several occasions where haste is better than crit, which is the reason several of my gear pieces favours haste. I'm sitting at 1168 haste rating and 1167 crit rating. Here is my Armoury for reference: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/b ... n/advanced. Likewise, I have seen crit favouring tendencies in full ilvl 372 gear, despite the amount of crit rating being far more than double the amount of haste rating.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby CaptainCub » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:35 am

Arctagon wrote:Likewise, I have seen crit favouring tendencies in full ilvl 372 gear, despite the amount of crit rating being far more than double the amount of haste rating.

With ilvl366 gear, that's pretty much what I'm seeing in Mew, i.e. crit still being somewhat stronger than gearing for haste with some level of expertise (that I prefer to hit) between 600 and 700 rating yielding no dps loss and even minor gains depending on whose script is used (default vs Leafkiller's).

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby Arctagon » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:56 am

You shouldn't expect to see any major dps loss for gearing some expertise due to it being close behind, but I haven't seen any scenarios where gearing for expertise will actually gain you dps.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:26 pm

Arctagon wrote:I don't think it's sufficient to come with such generalisations any longer. I myself am in mostly blue gear and have had several occasions where haste is better than crit, which is the reason several of my gear pieces favours haste. I'm sitting at 1168 haste rating and 1167 crit rating. Here is my Armoury for reference: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/b ... n/advanced. Likewise, I have seen crit favouring tendencies in full ilvl 372 gear, despite the amount of crit rating being far more than double the amount of haste rating.


Are you using encounter duration randomization? Haste vs Crit should not be fluctuating that much...

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby CaptainCub » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:52 am

Arctagon wrote:You shouldn't expect to see any major dps loss for gearing some expertise due to it being close behind, but I haven't seen any scenarios where gearing for expertise will actually gain you dps.

On any fights where you have narrower windows of opportunity, e.g Al'Akir P2 (expertise has double the benefit of hit), H. Maloriak (expertise may be more useful on black phases than hit), H. Magmaw (same benefit as hit), Chimaeron (same benefit as hit), H. Conclave (Rohash Platform: he keeps casting so he shouldn't parry, same benefit as hit), Ascendant Council, most trash mobs.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby Arctagon » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:33 pm

ShmooDude wrote:Are you using encounter duration randomization? Haste vs Crit should not be fluctuating that much...

It's set to 0%, which is default.

CaptainCub wrote:On any fights where you have narrower windows of opportunity, e.g Al'Akir P2 (expertise has double the benefit of hit), H. Maloriak (expertise may be more useful on black phases than hit), H. Magmaw (same benefit as hit), Chimaeron (same benefit as hit), H. Conclave (Rohash Platform: he keeps casting so he shouldn't parry, same benefit as hit), Ascendant Council, most trash mobs.

I was referring to Mew. As far as I know you can't pick different raid boss encounters and simulate them there.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:16 pm

We don't really know which stat is better in heroic vs. non-heroic gear in our simulations. RSV calculations are not providing much if any insight at this time. DPS calculations are based on idealized patchwork style fights. Only in the last month have we even had the ability to simulate a fight with combat interruptions such as Atramedes, and we still have no way to simulate a fight with phases where dps is increased at specific times, or for that matter, add fights.

With all of the testing I have done, about all I feel comfortable saying is that as long as you are not reforging to a non-dps stat (e.g. dodge), or reforging past a hard cap (8% hit, 26 expertise) it is not going to matter what you reforge to after grabbing as much mastery as you can.

So everyone take a deep breath, and please stop spending time telling people to shift stats between hit, exp, crit and haste. That will account for less than .5% of their total dps.

Focus on what matters. Rotation. Fight mechanics. Situational awareness. Cooldown usage. Getting 50 agility on their bracers, seriously - just getting the 50 agility enchant on bracers is more of a dps up (over any of the other bracer enchants) than the shuffling of points between crit, haste, hit and expertise.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby Suhmon » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:37 am

Leafkiller is absolutely right. In my current gear, which is mostly 372, when I run Mew all my secondary stats are nearly equal to one another in value. Even mastery isn't really better anymore. So at this point, just do whatever. You won't even notice a difference. Everytime you reforge you'll notice one stat becomes better than another. So don't sweat it. That missed rake when Atremedes lifts off is gonna account for way more dps loss than any stat choices for the most part.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby CaptainCub » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:54 am

Leafkiller wrote:So everyone take a deep breath, and please stop spending time telling people to shift stats between hit, exp, crit and haste. That will account for less than .5% of their total dps.

I can't really agree with this secondary stats all amounting to the same thing situation. I'm running around with another Feral cat in raids, he has the exact same gear I do. So I can compare my performance in real time to his. And before I reforged to expertise I would occasionally get streaks of misses and dodges when I wanted to refresh a bleed and these streaks weren't dps-neutral by any stretch of the imagination. They would cause unrecoverable damage to my dps over the course of the fight. There are fights where it's easy to understand why running around with minimal hit and expertise is a risky gamble. Take the constructs on Heroic Magmaw, if you get streaks of misses/dodges before all your bleeds are on, you're screwed because the add will die so fast it'll make your head spin. It's even worse if it happens on the exposed head because of the narrow windows you get to focus dps on it.
Likewise you don't want to cap both hit and expertise, it's counterproductive. If you have low crit and haste, you'll build combo points that much slower.
What I'm driving at is how much crit and haste you have won't make such a big difference at the end of the day, although it has become clear that fights with low uptime on the boss favor crit because bleeds will out damage direct attacks by a greater amount. Hit and expertise on the other hand are never trivial and a reasonable amount (that I feel like is comprised between 7-9% of avoided attacks) is needed to rule out the likelihood of these devastating streaks happening.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:47 pm

Don't underestimate the affects of RNG on performance. It can easily account for 10-20% swings in dps on a given encounter.

Hit and expertise do lower variance - stacking points in crit/haste will give you the potential for higher results if you don't miss at all. I have not done any simulations on how to optimize dps on something like the exposed head phase of Magmaw, or the large adds. Below are some notes on what might be possible for a useful test case - so we can see if the value of the secondary stats does change more on these short phases.


==========================
Just making some notes here for how to simulate the exposed head phase on Magmaw:

For the exposed head - you have 30 seconds of combat time, sometimes it is during the BiTW phase but not always, and DoTs continue to tick after the head goes back up, so an allowance would need to be made to keep the head in combat but out of melee/white attack range for additional time - depending on when Rip is refreshed. We can test using a standard rotation - but on a short encounter like that, a specialized rotation would be useful. It is hard to measure the overall value of GoTF vs. GoB since this is not testing the entire fight - so this would focus on hit/exp vs. haste/crit, and also what the rotation should look like. It is much easier to make sure that Rip is refreshed during the BiTW phase.

I guess we could assume the large adds on Magmaw live about 30 seconds as they spawn every 35 seconds. They have a BiTW phase - but optimum dps on them may include swapping off before they are finished and getting back on Magmaw - doing a quick refresh during the BiTW phase on the add.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby wraithaur » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:19 pm

Being an avid motorcycle rider this reminds me of a discussion that often happens about peoples track bikes. Person 1 is saying, i can get the engine rebuilt and get an extra 20hp, person 2 says i can change my suspension and get 20hp more power to the ground out of corners.
Person 3 says, rather than go spending $10000 on those modifications, go on a diet and loose 5-10kg and you will out perform both.

My point you ask. At this pin point of performance in dps there is maybe, "Maybe" 100 or 200dps in it. This is out of 25000 dps, maybe 200. So my point is, you would gain more from extra practice perhaps, or better times to pop a certain CD than a slight change in stats at this time.
So while its very interesting discussion, and i read every post with interest, my rational mind at the end said, there is probably more gain in the person, or latency than in the minor change in stats.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby CaptainCub » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:05 am

I think cats who look into secondary stats more than reasonable actually believe Mew understimates the gap induced by varying the values but trust Mew to give us a sound basis for prioritizing them. Probably some leftover from WOTLK.

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby shinryu » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:33 am

I think bottom line, unless you're into hardcore min-maxing, just don't bother reforging anything if it already has mastery and either crit/haste, reforge whatever gives you more mastery if the item has haste/crit, and flip a coin if it's any other stat to reforge into haste or crit (or go just mastery if item doesn't have it already). :lol:

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Re: Kitty in great need of help!

Postby felhoof » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:52 pm

I think bottom line, unless you're into hardcore min-maxing, just don't bother reforging anything if it already has mastery and either crit/haste, reforge whatever gives you more mastery if the item has haste/crit, and flip a coin if it's any other stat to reforge into haste or crit (or go just mastery if item doesn't have it already).
I'd disagree.

There definitely are better choices depending on the player and the gear level and the encounter.

For example: if you have high latency or are fairly bad at adjusting to misses when you don't do a rake/rip properly or you have limited time on target, hit/expertise will almost certainly result in a DPS increase for you.

If you are really, really strong at adapting when you miss and optimizing your procs from trinkets and the like so that you can maximize certain moves, chances are crit or haste is going to be better for you.

If you're wanting to maximize AOE dps, crit and low-capping hit/exp (for lvl 87s) is much better than mastery and haste.
If you're wanting to maximize damage when you can't hit the target, mastery is best.

In the normal case you're right - it doesn't matter. But if you're working on a specific fight for a while there are choices that are going to be better than others - and a lot of that depends a lot on YOU.

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