Register

Edgy/Raffy's Catus Thread (Not 6.0 Ready Yet)

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 895
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby raffy » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:31 pm

Ah good catch! Fixed in this version:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... emfix3.zip

I'll do an official v19 release with all these fixes soon.

BTW, that font looks really hard to read -- you're non-english if I recall? I wonder if I can do anything to improve that.

Honored
User avatar
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:56 pm

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby scorpio0920 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:07 am

raffy wrote:Ah good catch! Fixed in this version:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... emfix3.zip

I'll do an official v19 release with all these fixes soon.

BTW, that font looks really hard to read -- you're non-english if I recall? I wonder if I can do anything to improve that.


Traditional Chinese (zhTW)

Big thanks.

What information can I can help you do?

Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:36 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Serina2410 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:40 am

Hey Guys,
i cant use the reforge tool on catus :S
It says everytime: "Found zero Solutions. Try relaxing the hit/exp constraints"

I dont know what i'm doing wrong with this programm.
Can u help me? :(

If u want to try my Character

Sêrinâ - Die Aldor EU

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 895
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby raffy » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:04 pm

I don't know what your settings are but these two setups work, which I believe are the current defaults:
Image

Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:36 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Serina2410 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:01 pm

well i deleted the range 250 but i dont know how this could happen xD

But ok Thx for this ^^

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 895
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby raffy » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:58 pm

If search range is blank, it assumes that you mean "0", which (if your Hit/Exp was 2550) would search for perfect 2550/2550 solutions and fail if it can't find any. "Try relaxing the hit/exp constraints" means makes your Search Range bigger; I'll change this so it's more clear.

I'll add a restore Defaults button in next update to reset the reforgers.

Next release (v19) should also have Shmoo AoE changes, some other rotation improvements, various bug fixes, and the Computable Statistic tables for Mangle, Shred, Ravage, Swipe, and FB, and a comparison feature so you can find breakpoints between Rake/Mangle or Swipe/Thrash+ticks, etc.

Revered
User avatar
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:19 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Alpheus » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:52 pm

raffy wrote:If search range is blank, it assumes that you mean "0", which (if your Hit/Exp was 2550) would search for perfect 2550/2550 solutions and fail if it can't find any. "Try relaxing the hit/exp constraints" means makes your Search Range bigger; I'll change this so it's more clear.

I'll add a restore Defaults button in next update to reset the reforgers.

Next release (v19) should also have Shmoo AoE changes, some other rotation improvements, various bug fixes, and the Computable Statistic tables for Mangle, Shred, Ravage, Swipe, and FB, and a comparison feature so you can find breakpoints between Rake/Mangle or Swipe/Thrash+ticks, etc.


But isn't the range just a legacy feature meant for running time optimization? I mean it will always find an optimal solution if it's 100 or 400. Can't you autoset it to something like total secondaries/1000 and do without that field?
Image

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 895
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby raffy » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:16 pm

For most gear setups, even 50 or so is fine (if you have gems w/bonus breaking enabled), you'll need to raise it up to 250 or so if you are gearing with Renataki, or got really unlucky with ToT gear, and you might need to raise it up to 500+ if you have a bunch of gear with both Hit/Exp. This is mostly because Catus is unable to estimate your minimum Hit/Exp correctly when you have pieces that already have both Hit/Exp (preventing both from being reforged out of simultaneously.)

You are correct that the search range is a vestigial feature but sometimes it is an useful control because it bounds the amount of extra Hit/Exp you're considering (when using "At Least"). This helps it know when to flip over to Stamina gems (if you have it enabled.)

Additionally, I don't think anyone has checked the value of sloppy 1:1:1 reforges. Everyone just assumed that maximizing the proc was the best thing to do. But maybe an 8:7:6 (or whatever) balance is better. Overflow governs the "Range" of the 1:1:1 balance, and the gap's can be used to force an strict imbalance.

I had plans to add another reforging tab, that just has 2 buttons on it: "1:1:1" and "Mastery" (with no interface) as a quick and dirty "99%-of-the-time-this-works" but never got around to it. I guess it could even be a single button -- "Recommended" -- that just checks to see if you have a Rune.

The Secondary Maximizer needs more work too. Sometimes it takes too long for certain gear permutations (it isn't multithreaded like 1:1:1). It also is exhaustive so it spends the majority of it's time checking all kinds of corner cases (it doesn't assume that straight Red+Red+Red is the best bonus busting option). Additionally, since the goal was to offer multiple solutions, it can't stop once it finds the first viable solution.

Catus wasn't really designed to be a primary reforger, it's designed to be a simulator. It was released premature (w/o simulator support) because Aggixx wanted a better way to create gear setups for simc.

Ultimately, I knew that having an inline reforger was important, because once you start automating things, like generating upgrade lists, or trinket pair comparisons, or whatever, you might end up with 100+ gear profiles which is far too many to manually manage. It's especially nice in situations where you're doing a DPS comparison w/ and w/o Rune (like the tutorial example I posted earlier) where manually changing the gems/enchants/reforges, or re-importing through various web services, greatly increases the time and complexity involved to the point that you do 1 or 2 tests and then give up.

Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:42 pm

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Tempo » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:58 am

on a non-ror setup, agixx has the aoc coming out on top of all sims performed... in catus, full bis normal... haromm's/TED is sim'ing roughly 9k over haromm's/AoC and TED/AoC coming in roughly 5k behind

the AoC, to me, just sounds truly epic in a non-ror setup since energy regen went out the window with equipping 2SoO trinkets

thoughts?

thanks
Image

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby aggixx » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:02 am

Huh? Unless I'm missing something AoC isn't on top of simmed DPS in any of my posted numbers.

AoC is slightly gimped for single target patchwerk and as such the trinket pair the doesn't include it (TED & Haromm's) will sim the highest.
Image

Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:42 pm

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Tempo » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:30 am

hmm, maybe my eyes were crossed when I looked at your posted sims lol, my bad
Image

Revered
User avatar
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:19 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Alpheus » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:22 am

Tempo wrote:hmm, maybe my eyes were crossed when I looked at your posted sims lol, my bad


Keep in mind it's still a good idea to pick up AoC because it also decreases the cooldown on Barkskin and Survival Instincts (making glyphed SI a 1.38m cooldown which is INSANE) not to mention the aoe-utility it gives you (galakras, spoils). Overall, it depends on what content you're doing.

Edit: also keep in mind that the min-max sims for single-target trinket combos from Raffy most likely use an upgraded pig sticker and FoN. It's literally the highest single-target setup (apart from the fact that you cannot upgrade pig sticker) and if you're making decisions off of that chart you need to keep in mind that it might not be the best for all encounters. If you're using RoRO it's really easy to swap between Haromm's and AoC because they have no stats to mess up reforges but from my own sims I found that RoRo+TED was by far the best combo for single-target (with FoN).
If you're not using RoRO then go by agixx's sims or just use the secondary maximizing reforger from Catus for Mastery.
Image

Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:42 pm

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Tempo » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:59 pm

yeah, unfortunately we were only able to get to 10/13 in ToT before 5.4 hit (had a slow start to t15, it happens) so i never had the chance for a heroic rune to drop... i just recently got a warforged haromm's and was able to coin a normal TED, this combo is simming higher than the normal rune (which im betting you know)... now im just missing the energy regen that came with reforging for the rune, but it looks like we should see that again in full seige gear
Image

Revered
User avatar
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:19 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Alpheus » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:26 pm

Tempo wrote:yeah, unfortunately we were only able to get to 10/13 in ToT before 5.4 hit (had a slow start to t15, it happens) so i never had the chance for a heroic rune to drop... i just recently got a warforged haromm's and was able to coin a normal TED, this combo is simming higher than the normal rune (which im betting you know)... now im just missing the energy regen that came with reforging for the rune, but it looks like we should see that again in full seige gear


Just sign for weekly openraid HC 10man ToT's until you get/coin a rune. Until then go by whatever sims highest. For progress I'd suggest AoC + Haromm's, TED makes me rage half of the time.
Image

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 508
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:50 pm

Keep also in mind that just about every other agility class gets more value from AoC than we do, so unless you get it from a bonus roll or have little competition, you probably shouldn't be getting it any time soon.

Doing PTR I originally estimated that I'd use AoC on roughly half the fights in Siege of Orgrimmar. However, knowing as I do now that every fight before Malkorok is a pushover, I think the only challenging fight on which it's probably worth using over other options is Spoils. I guess the ability to berserk every second assembly line instead of every third on Blackfuse might be useful, but berserk isn't even that strong a cooldown.

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 895
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby raffy » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:33 am

I added damage tables for more Cat spells (still need FB), and two comparison tables:
Image
I'll probably release another update this weekend with these changes + stuff from the "-gemfix" released.

I'm debating about adding another encounter type, where you have N targets, and you need to kill them, but you only can attack one at a time for a short duration, this is kinda comparable to the Assembly Line encounter idea, except all targets are attackable (so they can get cleaved). Has anyone thought of better (but still relatively simple) encounter idea that integrates our AoE abilities better?

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 895
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby raffy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:22 am

Released v19: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... Latest.zip
- Fixed JC + non-standard gems on import
- Override Set Bonuses, Challenge Mode Restrictions are now bigger toggles
- Added "Average Ranges" to reduce variability in all Min-Max damage/healing/etc.
- Added more gear warnings for other professions
- Custom Stats applies like Mastery Buff, so it doesn't modify your Rune proc
- Added Shmoos changes to Cleave encounter
- Added smarter Faerie Fire refresh in Patchwerk encounter (still needs work)
- Updated item database (simc found some issues with Ordos)
- Added direct damage attacks to Computable Statistics
- Added some comparison tables to Computable Statistics
- Direct damage attacks can benefit from Shattering Blow, Faerie Fire, etc.. (if you have them selected and [x] Use Debuffs)
- Added "Edit Custom Gear" button to batch add custom gear (regardless of equipment type)
- Added Encounter Export (but doesn't have a public use yet)
- Set Bonus Name is clickable in gear (launches Wowhead)
- Secondary Maximizer is faster
- Secondary Maximizer has access to more gems (so it can properly gem for Guardian, but is lacking crit-cap field)
- Compact Gear includes profession/race entry, for easier import
- Added a few more names to sim name menu
- Cat Stats has form buttons for Human, Cat, Bear
- Added Stamina Food
- Various bug fixes

Note: if you've made any changes to the Encounter files locally, back them up before launching v19. Catus will clear a chunk of the cache when updating versions.

Note: make sure you're using RPPM reset of Standard when doing simulations.

If something goes wrong, older versions available here: http://raffy.antistupid.com/wow/catus_old/

Next update will be the following:
- Finalized AvsB (with reports, damage breakdowns, etc.)
- Generate Distribution gives Averaged Information (like bottom of combat log)
- More Encounters (Assembly: one after another, Cycle: multiple targets, maximum time per target)
- Batch download gear/gems (when items are updated)

The "pool_resource" guards block a lot of "do while idle" code from executing, so I'm thinking of adding a callback to pool_resource, something "pool_resource,if=blah,on_wait=abc" and then that effectively calls "run_action_list,name=abc" if it does a maximum wait for resources.

---

Has anyone done any work with Sigil? To figure out when it might be useful?
Cleave encounter, with Minimum Cleave set to a big number, using N permanent adds (spawn at start, no death criteria), so it's basically Patchwerk with N cleave-able adds, and then find the smallest N such that the trinket is good, might be a good starting point.

Revered
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby ShmooDude » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:46 am

raffy wrote:Has anyone done any work with Sigil? To figure out when it might be useful?
Cleave encounter, with Minimum Cleave set to a big number, using N permanent adds (spawn at start, no death criteria), so it's basically Patchwerk with N cleave-able adds, and then find the smallest N such that the trinket is good, might be a good starting point.


Not sure I get your logic here? Why would we use a single target rotation to determine if an AoE trinket is worth using? Doesn't all that do (essentially) is not use swipe and use lower thrash priority?

But to answer your question, 2 perma adds (boss + 2 for 3 total) in my gear (except substituting TED for Renataki's which sims slightly ahead), using single target rotation puts Sigil of Rampage slightly ahead.

However, using the cleave rotation increases the gain from negligable (~0.5%) to ~3% or so.

So as far as Normal goes, I'd use Sigil on:
Fallen Protectors if the range is big enough (idk, what is the range on it? Guessing melee range or 8 yards but could be bigger I guess; would need to be 30 or 40 yards to be worth it this fight)
Galakras (unless the final boss is your only trouble and not the adds beforehand)
Spoils of Pandaria
Garrosh (if phase 1 is your trouble)

For heroic add (my guess not having done any of em):
Immerseus

Hmm, somehow in my head thought it'd be more. Hardly seems worth picking up now despite its huge advantage on AoE fights, there just aren't enough to worry about.

User avatar
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby henrikw92 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:56 am

It is worth noting that very late during the PTR cycle they made a change multistrike trinkets (Haromm's Talisman) to proc from Flurry of Xuen, Capacitance, and Stormlash; this change is not yet implemented in SimulationCraft. This is a fairly significant increase to the trinkets value and puts it firmly as our best trinket for single target damage (behind Rune of Re-Origination).


Is this also true for catus?
Did a sim with the different trinkets on normal and my character today, and TED came out on top every time, while haromm's is listed as bis.


Link to results

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 895
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby raffy » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:45 pm

@shmoo
Well you kind of answered my question: I was curious if, with 3 targets (1+2 for Protectors), that if you had Sigil active, would Swipe be a better generator? Or is cycled Rake making it good? Or just the normal rotation? Or possibly it's break-even (doubtful) with other trinkets with only 1 cleave-able target available? (It's kind of like Haromm in that situation.) From the initial sims I did (when I had no idea how Sha of Pride worked :p) even for straight up burst AoE every minute, Sigil didn't appear good enough, but a lot has changed since then.

@henrikw
You can check the combat log in Catus to confirm, but yes, since 5.4 release, Multistrike and Cleave proc from those sources:
Code: Select all
00:08.819 @Boss   Flurry of Xuen#2                    42427 Crit         +SR+Agi(5650)
00:08.819 @Boss   Multistrike#Flurry of Xuen          14142 Hit         
00:08.819 @Boss   Stormlash#Flurry of Xuen            17077 Hit          +Agi(5650)
00:08.949 @Boss   Melee                               27962 Hit          +SR+Agi(5650)
00:08.949 @Boss   Multistrike#Melee                    9321 Hit         
00:08.949 @Boss   Stormlash#Melee                     11004 Hit          +Agi(5650)
00:09.119 @Boss   Flurry of Xuen#3                    42427 Crit         +SR+Agi(5650)
00:09.119 @Boss   Stormlash#Flurry of Xuen            20824 Hit          +Agi(5650)

Multistrike, Cleave, and Stormstrike include their trigger name ("Multistrike#Flurry of Xuen") in their damage description.

What's BiS at 580 may not be BiS at 550 or 520. It's actually always been like this. We play completely different at 463 (Challenge Modes) than we do at 550+. One of the motivations behind Catus is (an attempt) to kill BiS gear and trinket lists, and give you guys the tools to figure out what's best for your own gear right now w/o much hassle. Even if you used the same BiS gear, and scaled it to the following item levels: {540, 560, 580} using our 4 talent options: SotF/FoN + HotW/DoC, that's 12 different "BiS" configurations, and I can't imagine they all suggest they same BiS trinkets.

A simple argument would be:

Most trinkets are passive: +Stat and proc: +Agi
If you do DPS without the trinket, you'd be doing approximately: DPS * (Stat0 + Stat)/Stat0 * (Agi0 + Agi)/Agi0 with it.
Note: in this case, both Stat0 and Agi0 are already large numbers (say 8500 Secondary and 33000 Agility)

Haromm is two procs: +Agi and Multistrike
If you do DPS without the trinket, you'd be doing approximately: DPS * (Agi0 + Agi)/Agi0 * (1 + Multistrike) with it.

These equations scale differently as ilvl increase:

Multistrike is 15% at 561 and 18% at 580 => 18/15 = 20% better
Ebon is 23040 Agility at 561 and 27500 at 580 => 27500/23040 = 20% better, but you need to consider your base Agility
(33000 + 27500)/(33000 + 23040) = only 8% better

Additionally, Multistrike gives you another multiplicative scaler: eg. having 3x +2% multiplicative gains is better than 2x +3% gains (1.02^3 > 1.03^2)

-------

Edit: technically, what I'm doing internally is triggering a "DamageSpell" event each time Cloak/Meta/Multi/Cleave is executed. Each of my trinket procs list their trigger sources. Possibly this doesn't mimic in-game, but I imagine it's pretty close. I haven't checked it recently since Blizzard was changing stuff left and right at the end of the PTR cycle. A good sanity check would be to simulate combat times that match a WoL recording for your gear, and then checking various occurrence numbers.


Edit: looks like I forgot to enable Fishing Poles :X

User avatar
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:25 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby henrikw92 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:34 pm

Thanks a lot for the detailed reply raffy.

I am aware that bis items and especially trinkets change, depending on your ilvl and gear, just wanted to comfirm that TED was siming correct.
Was trying to figure out if any of the trinkets was significantly worse to se what I could pass on.
With how it looks, I'll probably end up trying to get either haromm's or TED and eventually get AoC for multi-target and aoe fights.

Thanks again, for all the good work you do with catus, don't know what I would have done without it during the last two tiers

Honored
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:12 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Etapicx » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:33 am

Will the Rip buff automatically be updated or dose it need to be manually done?
Image

Revered
User avatar
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:19 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby Alpheus » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:01 am

Etapicx wrote:Will the Rip buff automatically be updated or dose it need to be manually done?


It will require a new update on both SimC and Catus
Image

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 895
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby raffy » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:03 am

I'll update it in a few minutes, I just finished doing some arena and I want to do some last minute changes to Catus:
- Can wear/import Fishing Poles!
- I found and fixed a reforging bug (while answering some questions for low-ilvl Cats)
- Added a few more glyphs for completeness
- Weapon DPS scaling valid below 285 ilvl
- 20% Rip change
- Can wear/import Arclight Spanner! (Misc. weapons)


Edit: I'll push this as a new version once the damage is confirmed tomorrow:
Download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... Latest.zip

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 895
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:15 am

Re: Edgy/Raffy's Official Catus Thread

Postby raffy » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:22 am

Added a "Hotfix" panel with multiplicative coefficients:
Image
These changes should apply everywhere, so even the damage tables reflect these adjustments. For example, to counteract the Rip buff, you could set "Rip = 0.833" (1/1.2), or to emulate the old DoC (1.25), you could set "DoC = 0.9615" (1.25/1.3).

Note: the changes are relative to any existing multiplier, so "TF = 2" would be 1.15 * 2

Right now this is kind of crude, but eventually I can add a ton more stuff (and maybe some better input modes, rather than purely multiplicative.)

Validate (is probably the wrong name, as you don't need to click it after making a change) shows you a textual dump of the final coefficients.

Download: Catus-Latest.zip (still v19)

PreviousNext

Return to Kitty DPS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Google Feedfetcher and 11 guests