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Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

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Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Sylvaneart » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:45 pm

It’s a slow day. Many people are still returning from Easter visits. My own son is on his last day of break before going back to school. Not much happened this weekend as far as WoW goes. Blizz released there “final” 4.1 patch notes. Lots of guilds and players I talked to didn’t raid this weekend with so many traveling. I guess this is the calm before the storm. 4.1 on Tuesday :D I am ready that is for sure. They love bears received is nice. Cats got only a scratch behind the ears but I’ll take it. The new patch has gotten me thinking beyond the patch. So sit back in that chair. Pour a draft and let me tell you about it.

Mainly this comes from discussions I have read about people complaining about no Firelands raid yet. As of today in heroic 10 and 25 mans 207 guilds have killed Sinestra, 571 have killed Al’Akir, and 722 have killed Neferian. That’s not a lot. My own guild is 6/13 in 25 mans. Really I am not ready for a new tier. I know some are sic of the current content even if they haven’t beat it all yet. It just seems asking for new content is a way of giving up on the old. “Yep Heroic Cho is too hard. Give me a new tier so I can come back and over power this.” Thing is most guilds don’t go back. TOC was about the only time I ever saw this. I think that was due more to gating then anything else. Lots of guilds went into ToC on the 1st day killed the 1 available boss and then went back to Ulduar HM the rest of the raid week. When ICC opened its doors there were 4 bosses on day 1 to get through. After that people didn’t really go back to ToC.

So many players are just concerned with getting epics these days. Item level is such a pain. I have seen people who will take the 359 gear simply because it is higher so it must be better. These people don’t want to do old content to finish it, they want to move to the new content to up their gear score. Even if there raid isn’t geared enough for the new content.

OMG Achievs! I have a few myself and it has been a nice way to fill gaps in content but I hate not completing something before moving on. I am not overly concerned with getting the little achievs in the current tier but I at least want to finish the instance.

Blizz has hinted that new tiers will have increased need for hit and such as we move forward. That being said do I have the gear needed to step into these raids? I have no idea. Maybe they will have some new enchants or something but we just don’t know. Tank walks up to 1st Fireland boss and takes a big ol swing at him. The boss parries and strikes back twice! Hey wait a sec I thought parry haste was gone. Not if you have 10 expertise or lower. Well crap complete Bear re-think going on for me now. Are they going to bring that back? I have no idea but that’s my point. We have no idea. Yes as a 4.2 PTR goes online we will get MMO-Champion finding all kinds of stuff out way in advance but by then I might learn I am so wrong I need 2 weeks of BoT plus some lucky drops to be ready.

Ask a racer any real racer and they will tell you, It doesn’t matter if you win by an inch or a mile winning is winning. (yes I just used that) I say to you. Ask a Raider, any real raider and they will tell you. It matters a ton if you beat current content at level and gear. I don’t like to ROFLSTOMP. I have been helping a friend get bow from KJ in Sunwell. With me tanking in all cat gear 1 healer and 10 DPS we clear in 20min. Man it saddens me because I loved the epic HOLY****IJUSTGOTHANDEDMY*** feel of Sunwell back in the day. I don’t want to go to Firelands, gear up and come back. BTW groups of 85s with raid gear going after Heroic Anub is FUNNY. Finally a mechanic that doesn’t allow for over gearing. Personally I blame there healers for topping off.

Finally boredom. Are you bored with the current content? Have you beaten it? Most of you havn’t. What you are bored with is week after week going in and banging your head aginst the wall hopeing this week the off tank can pic up the adds, or the healers get there CD rotation correct. Most likely that is what is boring you. Same fight every week, same failures every week. Just because a new tier comes out doesn’t mean you will progress any farther, faster, or at all. So I pose the question, Are you “ready” for 4.2?

So I pose this question and I want you to really think before you answer. Are you “ready” for 4.2?
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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby felhoof » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:18 pm

To issue the counterpoint:

There is almost always a drag issue when content is older than 5 months and isn't easily conquered. This stuff has been out for almost 6 months now. Furthermore, there is not nearly the incentive to do the hard mode raids that there has been before; knowing that when Firelands hits they'll be able to get gear from easy bosses that is on par with the loot that drops from the hardest heroic boss (or at least the most inaccessible), and that this is coming soon - that's pressure on par with a new expansion hitting in terms of stuff.

Mostly, it's that people have been raiding the same 12 bosses (or 13 if you're so inclined) for 6 months. Since this is the first tier of content, they don't have the luxury of going back and doing cleanup on achievements or something like that in prior tiers. They probably can't realistically farm other stuff for gear. They can't do offnights or fun raids. They've got two choices: do the trivial stuff on normal mode that they've done a billion times, or wipe on stuff for a while.

This is hard on a guild. Very, very hard. Being a progression-oriented guild that doesn't have progression is a very quick way to burnout. Adding to this is that the fights are largely the same in terms of style and play as they were before, so your brain feels like it's done this a billion times already. That hurts too.

I don't know if people are 'ready' to move on in terms of what they've completed, but I think they're ready to progress faster and at least feel somewhat accomplished and do something. At least the ICC buff let people try something 'new' every month in terms of difficulty. Without that, it's just the same head, same wall. same pain.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby shinryu » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:39 pm

felhoof wrote:To issue the counterpoint:

There is almost always a drag issue when content is older than 5 months and isn't easily conquered. This stuff has been out for almost 6 months now. Furthermore, there is not nearly the incentive to do the hard mode raids that there has been before; knowing that when Firelands hits they'll be able to get gear from easy bosses that is on par with the loot that drops from the hardest heroic boss (or at least the most inaccessible), and that this is coming soon - that's pressure on par with a new expansion hitting in terms of stuff.

Mostly, it's that people have been raiding the same 12 bosses (or 13 if you're so inclined) for 6 months. Since this is the first tier of content, they don't have the luxury of going back and doing cleanup on achievements or something like that in prior tiers. They probably can't realistically farm other stuff for gear. They can't do offnights or fun raids. They've got two choices: do the trivial stuff on normal mode that they've done a billion times, or wipe on stuff for a while.

This is hard on a guild. Very, very hard. Being a progression-oriented guild that doesn't have progression is a very quick way to burnout. Adding to this is that the fights are largely the same in terms of style and play as they were before, so your brain feels like it's done this a billion times already. That hurts too.

I don't know if people are 'ready' to move on in terms of what they've completed, but I think they're ready to progress faster and at least feel somewhat accomplished and do something. At least the ICC buff let people try something 'new' every month in terms of difficulty. Without that, it's just the same head, same wall. same pain.

I agree, even though I'm still 11/12 (haven't bothered killing Nefarian yet), it's pretty dang stale having to go in to down them. Especially when all the bosses in Throne give are pretty much "crap" loot that 9/10 times is DEd. The fact they also locked 2 needed tier pieces behind tokens only given by 2 bosses is also fairly frustrating from a progression standpoint as well, I don't think I've gotten a single upgrade in over a month...

And on hard modes, not everyone likes them. I find them boring as hell, having to kill bosses that just have more HP, deals more damage, and maybe a new mechanic or 2 for the most part is not entertaining to me, as it's just recycling stuff. If I want to do "hard" modes, I'll just fire up a fighting game and up the difficulty. But yeah...to me, there's not much incentive to do any hard modes simply because they're basically the same thing, also the same reason I quit in wotlk after the LK died, since I had zero interest in hard modes. Sure, you could farm them for better loot to use in Firelands, but Firelands odds are is going to be based around an entry level of 359 gear, not the 372s offered in heroics, so you're just really making it even easier by doing hard modes...I mean, where's the fun in that?

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Sylvaneart » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:56 pm

Great comments guys!! I am so thrilled you've joined this convo. I am always interested in others thoughts. I am typing on my phone right now so I will comment more later.
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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Ceithern » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:09 am

My guild is 12/12 and starting hardmodes now got Chim down after 2 weeks of various raid memebers in a 25 raid, mainly healers and tanks. I've tanked 3 different attacks and dps'd on the attempts. With the gear in heroics and probably starting in Firelands, I don't see the stress or headaches caused by them other than that's what I'm raiding. Normals are too easy but for 2 fights really and can be done without much thought. I kinda miss the old 10/25 mixing of raids where you could do both if you chose. Now its more stretch out the bosses to cover all the raid nights.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Sylvaneart » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:31 pm

I think the 10/25 shared lockout is a mistake. Will always think that.
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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby felhoof » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:03 pm

I think it's mostly great.

One of the things that ToC introduced was 10 and 25 man versions of heroic and non-heroic. ICC reverted that, but ToC emphasized something i suspected but did not know: running the same content makes it more boring more quickly than it would otherwise, even past linear returns. So in other words, doing the same content 4 times in a week is far worse than doing that content once each week for 4 weeks. It'll burn you out.

Now, there are ways to solve this while not making it quite as mandatory. The reason that people ran ICC10 and ToC10s were for badges. If you can't get those badges, it becomes much less desirous to do the content again and again.

However, now we have the shared loot table - and that most certainly isn't going away. Yes, you might not want badges - but you WILL want another shot at that stupid bracer or that OP trinket or tier tokens or whatever, at least while you're progressing. In a lot of ways that makes it worse; people will do two sets of runs early on for getting their badges, but those tend to have a limit on how 'good' they are to raiders before moving on naturally. Higher end gear -especially heroic gear and tokens - doesn't have such a limit. In that way it compels people to do even more.

I think ultimately that that compulsion is bad for the game. The thing that burns out raiders faster than anything is forcing them to do something they don't like in order to do something they do like. Raiders - good ones at least - will feel like they have to do these other things to get the gear to do what they want to actually do. That sucks. That must be avoided.

Yes, it sucks that you can't get the people that sat out here and there and play later, or fill in with some alts, or whatever. It does. I know. It's a change. But I think it's a change for the better.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Sylvaneart » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:20 pm

My biggest problem is that it is broken. Let me explain. We ran BOT and cleared 2 on heroic and 2 on normal. Then we went into BWD and got heroic Magma. The next day we did omnom on normal but our main tank was offline. He came on and couldn't get into the instance. We had to get a group of alts together to kill omnom on 10 so he could come back in to our run. that isnt a 10 Vs 25 problem but the lockouts are just broke right now.
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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby shinryu » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:25 pm

I do miss the ability to do 10s and 25s...nowdays, once you run through the raids over what, the 2-3 nights it takes to do them (unless you're doing progression for heroic), what else are you supposed to do in your spare time? PvP? Granted again, still haven't beaten Nef (P2 keeps killing us >.>), but we in my 10man raid group can tear through BoT and Throne in a single night while one-shotting just about everything, and the next night easily kill off everything not named Nefarian in BWD as well...so I mean, once we do get him, it's like then what do you do for the next 4-5 days? At least with the old model you could focus on 10s as your main sort of group, and then do 25s for fun after later in the week; we have 3 different 10mans running in our guild for example, so instead of trying to do awkward 25s one night that might leave people randomly saved to stuff, it'd be nice to have a separate night for that.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Grenache » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:00 am

In answer to your question....no I am not ready for 4.2 yet. We are 7/12 and slowly moving through the content. The average raider would probably have not started till about the end of December, making it only 4 months and not the 6 that someone claimed earlier.

I like how it is hard..well, it is for us....at least I get old fashioned BC-like satisfaction when we down something new nowdays.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby felhoof » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:17 pm

In answer to your question....no I am not ready for 4.2 yet. We are 7/12 and slowly moving through the content. The average raider would probably have not started till about the end of December, making it only 4 months and not the 6 that someone claimed earlier.
It's the end of April now - meaning that it's closer to 5 than 4.

Doesn't end up mattering; battering yourself against a wall of being stuck on anything for longer than a few months is going to drag. It really depends on where people are, but looking at recruiting there are an awful lot of 8/13 guilds out there.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:57 pm

With 4.2 now right around the coroner i must ask again......Are you ready? My guild have not finished heroic content. We had a horrible atrition attack and we are now rebuilt so we are raiding again but 1/3 of our 25man group did not have a single heroic kill before joining us so there is going to be a build up of gear and relearning of fights. With this i have decided we are not going to finish and be 13/13. And to be honest I just want to be a firecat. I am ready now.
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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby felhoof » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:29 pm

It's tough. Our guild is 11/13 (sin, council left) but summer attrition is really taking its toll. Sinestra is looking more and more doable, but attendance has been just brutal recently; 10 people were gone due to things like power supplies blowing up, record floods in Montana, and other random acts of god. And with raiding only two nights a week, that basically means one full raiding week left before 4.2 hits.

I had stated that it would be lucky if we cleared everything before the next content patch and it looks like I was sadly right. At least Firelands will take off some of that pressure, hopefully; from all appearances it's fairly easy for heroic-geared groups to do the normal modes.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:34 pm

we are 6/13 so not even close to finishing which might make it easier for me. If i was in your shoes i would be really chomping at the bit to finish those last 2 bosses
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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby shinryu » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:23 pm

I can honestly say I really don't give a crap about seeing Sinestra, sure it'd be nice, but I can live without it. Never even bothered doing Algalon either myself, missed out on it in Ulduar (though that was mainly because I was in a shit-tastic guild at the time as well as the fail server, I don't think he actually got downed till late ToC by one lol). So yeah...I mean, to me it's all trivial, I know I'm not the best and will never be one (or have the time/desire/dedication to try), so I'll just leave it as something to finish off for a title in 4.3 or something.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:27 pm

This tier has been so brutal. My guild which has been stable for 6 years just imploded. Our GM/RL was suddenly promoted at work and is now unable to raid. A lot of the officers felt it was a good time to step down as well so we had no one to step up and keep leading so we closed our raiding doors at 11/13 with 3 1% wipes on AC. If I am lucky I can see the last 2 fights on 10 man before the new tier. Maybe time to find a new home.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Antioch » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:03 pm

Same story here im afraid, we have gone from a guild who cleared every boss on heroic in 25 man save lk in the wotlk expansion to 3 heroic in cata, one of which was done in 10 man because we didn't have the numbers.
I'm sure we will be fine come the start of firelands but not for long and certainly not for heroic. The guild i'm in is the first one i have truely felt at home in and i have been a hard working officer there for some time but it saddens me a little to think of 4.2 comming.
Personally i can't wait for some new (rehashed old) content, but i hate the thoughts of leaving so much undone and potentially getting little done in the next patch.
But i guess we can but dream that 4.2 brings us everything we hope for and more, frankly i just want to be a fire cat and after that ill be happy :)
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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Lax » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:39 am

My guild is also at 6/13 25 hc, but I think we might get 1 more down before the patch. We havent been hit by the summer slump yet.

Am I ready for 4.2? Hell yes! I am dying for some new content.

I find it funny when the hardcore raiders complain that this tier was a big grind. Well, the less hardcore guilds are still going at it 3-5 nights a week instead of clearing everything in 1 evening. It is just not fun anymore - at least not on my main.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby adianar » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:36 pm

6/13 and hammered by the summer bug on Gnomeregan. We're one of the bottom tier servers, but the single accomplished 25 man raiding guild. I can deal with the content grind fine, but what I was bummed about this tier was the lack of melee friendly fights. On a cursory level, I'm not coming up with a caster conscious fight at all. Possibly the Twin Dragons, but nothing to the magnitude we have had to endure. We were forced to be VERY selective of our melee dps VS ranged/casters. I have done zero research into the firelands bosses, but I would hope that mechanics would move back to a more neutral stance on class type of dps. That really doesn't give the best players in a dps class a fair shot and it should really be the deciding factor to any Raid Lead.

Just my 2 cents..

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby felhoof » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:10 pm

Welp, we managed to do Sinestra and are now 12/13 with AA done on 10 man. Not a lot of excitement for a week on AC. Still, that's pretty good.

As far as melee vs ranged, melee is okay on Rhyolith and not great on Alyrazor. From what I've seen melee (especially cleaving/AoEing melee) is good on Ragnaros, but so are spellcasters who can spread - and too many melee may be a problem on Rags too. Fandral fortunately doesn't appear to hose melee whatsoever, and could even favor a bear hybrid to soak some damage.

Dunno much about Beth, Shannox or the last guy.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Sylvaneart » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:23 pm

Gratz Fel. Entering the last week of raiding we are not going to progress anything new. We have to many new people that just need to get some more gear going into 4.2. On another note one of our members server transfered payed to go 13/13 with another guild and transfered back. Pisses me off not becouse i can't afford it becouse I can but I am pissed that many of us keep showing up to help others and get them geared and ready and he missed last week to go do this.
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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby felhoof » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:40 pm

I just...don't get that at all.

Why would you pay two weeks before the next patch to go 13/13 and then come back? In a couple weeks most of the heroic content is going to be far easier due to all the 4.2 gear that folks will get, and there will be time to do that stuff later.

Why do it now at all?

That sounds fairly stupid.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby BigTwoHorns » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:05 pm

To say they did it. I myself have yet to even see WOTLK end game content and wish that when I had more time then that I would have done it. Sure, I could go do it now in 4.1 blues and have it down but missing out on that experience before Cata sucks.

Edit: Though to have your guild suffer for it is kind of selfish.
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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby felhoof » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:40 pm

But they didn't do jack! They could have at least done it with a guild that has progressed with them and felt some level of accomplishment. It's not like 4.2 is sooooo much easier than 4.1, and they're not nerfing the heroic raids.

So...yeah. I don't get it at all. They can say they saw it, but they basically were a tourist. It's like saying that you conquered Rome when you took a tour bus there.

I'd understand if it were the last patch or if he wanted a leg up on the next patch, maybe - but just to do it? Bizarre.

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Re: Sylv's Snippets 4: Are you ready for 4.2

Postby Grenache » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:22 pm

My theory is that in a lot of high end progression guilds, there is a lot of emphasis on getting content completed "before they nerf it for casuals / outgear it". You see lots of it in the realm forums where guilds talk about what they got up to pre-nerf in previous patches / expansions. Even if heroic modes aren't being touched in 4.2, the new 365 cloaks and other Firelands gear will mean that this old content will be considered easier now.

So, I reckon this person wanted to have their title when 372 was the highest level gear possible, and this is the last week that can be achieved. It's about the epeen factor for sure!

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