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HotW Bear form DPS

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HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Tremnen » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:07 am

Something I was just wondering. a trick I was using to get down a'hooru in 5.3 was to HotW Bear form kill all three guardians at once (to save my offensive cooldowns for when a'hooru's Divine shield dropped).

I'm wondering on the viability of this in a real raid setting. I can only think of like 2 fights it would be useful on. (Dark Shaman opening, maybe immerseus?). I guess my real question is is this more or less viable than Hurricane if you don't have a spell power weapon how is Bear thrash with HotW vs Cat thrash without. (Swipe?) Does Bear Mangle increase duration of Rip?

So many questions suddenly.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Steakbomb » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:52 am

Bear form DPS is horrible unless you have vengence, like all the other tanks. HOTW Bear form is only good if you need to tank in an emergency. Bear form doesn't increase your AP at all so it will be like you are a tank without vengence. I would HOTW and Wrath Spam single target or Hurricane anything over 4 targets.

HOTW Wrath spam hits like a TRUCK if you have a SP weapon. I start Nazgrim Heroic in HOTW(I tank the fight) and get over 1 million crits
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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Tremnen » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:49 pm

I am relatively (not at home to check on WoW) that HotW does increase your agility in bear form. I am thinking for short bursts not long term. For instance you are energy starved have no CP (you just put up a Rune Procced Rip) and Rune Procs again. I think hitting HotW Bearform Thrash Swipe might be better than "Sticking it out" in cat form.

Extremely situational I know but I like to think of solutions to problems that can and do come up from time to time.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Stenhaldi » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:59 pm

Yeah, HotW increases bear form agility by 50%.

The biggest risk to being in bear form for a short period of time is that if Re-Origination procs, it'll give you crit or haste. This is the main reason I haven't been using bear-thrash against a single target even though otherwise it should be a modest gain in the right circumstances (even without HotW).

---

A related thing I've been thinking of is that the ability to abuse vengeance is really strong. Feral also has some of the tools to abuse vengeance, in the form of Dispersion and other strong cooldowns. But one major problem for feral is that unless you regularly tank, it's hard to know what sources of damage are good sources of vengeance. Many sources of damage are explicitly vengeance-disabled, for example.

But one good example would be Garrosh's Annihilate. I tank this fight on heroic (since we 3-tank) and I stand in most of the Annihilates (8 per realm); it caps my vengeance after a few hits, causing me to do 600-700k DPS over a ~45s period. As feral you could potentially do even more damage due to the extra agility. You don't have quite the same mitigation or health as a guardian, but you could still eat at least 6 Annihilates as long as you pick up a Hope/Courage/Faith orb -- and possibly more if you know when the raid mitigation cooldowns are being used.

What I'm thinking is that after casting HotW+bear form, you eat the first two Annihilates with Dispersion. It's important to open with the strongest cooldown because you need some vengeance to power your Frenzied Regeneration when you have weaker cooldowns running.

After this, you can eat 4 more Annihilates with Might of Ursoc and Survival Instincts. Be warned that 12 seconds is barely enough to cover 4 hits, so you need to cast Survival Instincts right before the first Annihilate you intend to cover with it. Also, Might of Ursoc isn't just for the health pool -- it also increases your vengeance cap. So, Survival Instincts and Might of Ursoc should be enough to survive each hit (though you can also use Barkskin if you want), and by this point, you should have enough vengeance that you can cast Frenzied Regeneration to fully heal after each hit.

Ideally, you start this whole sequence exactly 6 Annihilates before the end of the phase, so that after the phase is over you still have 20 seconds of capped vengeance. It's not terrible to get extra Annihilates, but each Annihilate you don't eat reduces your vengeance by 15-20% of its previous value.

As I said though, I only tank this fight, so I have not tried this as feral. Do so at your own risk.

Edit: also, I would only expect this to be viable in 25-man raiding because the vengeance cap in 10-man raiding is lower.
Last edited by Stenhaldi on Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Tremnen » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:10 pm

I tanked the last 2 tiers and only dabbled in feral until the end of ToT when i switched guilds and switched specs. I am now extremely interested in trying to abuse this now. I think if I do try and do this it will be with AoC+Haromm's over RoRo for exactly the reason you outlined.

That said I was only thinking of doing this as a reactionary event (for example if Rune procs 2 or 3 times in a row and I am energy starved) but planning its use is far more interesting. I am going to try this out on Normal Garrosh this week and see how it goes. Another idea, Would it be possible to dispersion through a direct hit from an iron star and just completely destroy meters in P1? Or on Malkorok purposefully sitting in breath of Ysharj for vengeance (Does it even give vengeance?) How about Thok's Screech for extra bat damage? Hisek's Aim?

Well now I know what I will be looking into all weekend.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Tremnen » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:25 pm

How do temporary life gains effect vengeance. When they end does the extra vengeance just leave? for your idea of standing in anhilates. If I could feasibly survive standing in one with just SI+Barkskin and save MoU for the last 2 wouldn't that let me stay at peak vengeance longer.

So many things to contemplate. Glad I am now getting off work :P.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby raffy » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:35 pm

Switching to Bear, Thrashing, and switching back has been implemented in Catus since the beginning, it's just not being used. It can even do Ursoc and/or Dash (when possible) to save a GCD. I'll try to add a GUI for this in the next update.

I think from when this topic came up before (T14) during Wind Lord it was a gain, but eventually you could down that fight in just a few minutes, so I don't think there was much data collected in terms of how viable it actually was in-game. As said above, the Rune also complicates things.

Sten's Bear DPS thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4472
Early Simc stuff: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4472&start=25#p15202
Early Catus stuff: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4472&start=50#p15228

Implementing/modeling the Vengeance could be interesting. I'm not sure how best to trigger that kind of functionality though.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Stenhaldi » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:37 pm

One thing to note is that if you don't use Re-Origination, then you'll be stacking mastery which is worthless for bear damage. Not sure it would make a huge difference though.

Iron Star does give vengeance (both the impact and the explosion), but it's a little questionable because even the direct hit does only 1.5 million damage on normal (for comparison, Annihilate does 3.85 million on normal and 4.2 million on heroic). I'm not familiar enough with vengeance mechanics to predict how much it'll give you, though.

As for the other sources, I don't know since I don't normally tank those fights.

Tremnen wrote:How do temporary life gains effect vengeance. When they end does the extra vengeance just leave? for your idea of standing in anhilates. If I could feasibly survive standing in one with just SI+Barkskin and save MoU for the last 2 wouldn't that let me stay at peak vengeance longer.

The vengeance cap only applies when vengeance is granted, so Might of Ursoc expiring won't cause you to lose vengeance. (Just checked one of my recordings to confirm this.)

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Tremnen » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:26 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:One thing to note is that if you don't use Re-Origination, then you'll be stacking mastery which is worthless for bear damage. Not sure it would make a huge difference though.

Iron Star does give vengeance (both the impact and the explosion), but it's a little questionable because even the direct hit does only 1.5 million damage on normal (for comparison, Annihilate does 3.85 million on normal and 4.2 million on heroic). I'm not familiar enough with vengeance mechanics to predict how much it'll give you, though.

As for the other sources, I don't know since I don't normally tank those fights.

Tremnen wrote:How do temporary life gains effect vengeance. When they end does the extra vengeance just leave? for your idea of standing in anhilates. If I could feasibly survive standing in one with just SI+Barkskin and save MoU for the last 2 wouldn't that let me stay at peak vengeance longer.

The vengeance cap only applies when vengeance is granted, so Might of Ursoc expiring won't cause you to lose vengeance. (Just checked one of my recordings to confirm this.)


Yet again I played Bear until relatively recently. Does Cat Mastery not work with Lacerate? We have 2 prot warriors so Rallying cry will definitely be used in our rotation when we get there. Vengeance is supposed to give 1AP per 2% of the unmitigated damage taken in the last 20 seconds capping at different levels (dependent on your max HP and whether you are in a 10 man or 25 man raid).

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby raffy » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:31 pm

I was also surprised when I discovered this -- Razor Claws requires Cat Form:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4472&start=50#p15232

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Stenhaldi » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:47 pm

Vengeance was nerfed to 1.5% in 5.4, and the figure is scaled by a factor of 2.5 (to 3.75%) for magic damage.

But the behavior is different for the "first attack", and that's what I'm not clear on. For the first attack, it's supposed to grant half of the steady-state vengeance, which is 10/<attack interval> times what the attack would normally grant. But for that to work, the attack needs a well defined attack interval. For special attacks, the last I recall is that the interval is supposed to be normalized to 60 seconds.

But what constitutes a "first attack"? Only an attack while you don't have vengeance? First attack (in 20 seconds?) from a particular source? First attack from a particular class of "identical" attacks?

And how much vengeance does a "first attack" grant, if it's a special attack? It's it really normalized to 60 seconds, which would make the vengeance completely trivial? For special attacks with a well defined interval (like Annihilate), does it use that interval?

In fact, no combination of the above assumptions is matching what I see in my recordings. Best I can say is that the first Annihilate is giving me ~170k vengeance (from ~100k with ~10 seconds left to ~220k) and the Iron Star Impact (on heroic, where it does 2.5 million damage) is giving me ~30k vengeance.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Tremnen » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:12 pm

From Arielle (Theincbear.com)

The new formula is as follows:

0.015 * UnmitigatedDamage + OldVengeance * OldVengeanceSecondsRemaining / 20

Whenever you take damage, you gain 1.5% of that unmitigated damage as Attack Power. This Attack Power then decays over time, losing 5% of its value every second as long as you are taking damage. If you dodge a melee attack you will still gain Vengeance as if it had actually hit you. Note that this does not apply to "special attacks" that can also be dodged (Garalon's cleave for example). Blizzard has stated that all sources of damage that are directed at the player now contribute to Vengeance instead of just melee attacks. So things like magical damage, bleeds, and special attacks will also now grant Vengeance. However this does not include environmental effects like fire on the ground. This means it is no longer advantageous to "stand in bad" during an encounter.

Vengeance caps at your maximum health, this has no actual affect on gameplay since if it gets that high in a normal situation you're going to be dead anyway. The decay rate will still even out relative to the incoming damage to give you a somewhat constant level of Vengeance. When something hits you the game will attempt to "bump" you up to what it thinks is 50% of the max based on the damage you just received. Special attacks not included in the "floor" calculation, meaning you can't take an extremely large hit from a special attack to spike your Vengeance super high.

When you taunt a target that is currently attacking another tank, you will be given half of that tank's Vengeance. Further, in order to prevent that tank from instantly pulling off of you again all taunts temporarily grant the tank a 200% bonus Vengeance modifier for 4 seconds. This is in addition to the passive +700% bonus that you receive for just being a tank. Together, this means you will generate a total of 1400% threat (7*2) when you taunt a target.

Lastly, Vengeance has diminishing returns when tanking multiple targets. The formula for this diminishing returns is as follows:

The Nth strongest (based on pre-mitigation average auto attack DPS) mob that has hit you in the last 5 seconds grants 1/Nth of full vengeance with their attacks. N is recalculated on every hit taken.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:01 pm

Some corrections or notes:
  • There's a 2.5 multiplier for vengeance from magic damage (tanks have a lot less magic mitigation than physical mitigation, so this is needed to balance that).
  • The cap is now only 50% of your max health in 25-man raiding.
  • This is the last I heard of the "bump to 50% of max" effect.
  • I'd also note that effects which increase damage taken actually do increase vengeance generation (i.e. they don't count as mitigation effects for the purpose of finding "unmitigated damage"). So for example on Malkorok, our tanks try to keep the Fatal Strike stacked for the entire phase.

I just realized that the Iron Star Impact vengeance was probably being suppressed by 1/2 or 1/3 since it was the weakest thing hitting me. That could explain the vengeance it was giving -- ~30k or ~45k instead of the expected ~90k.

I still can't predict the vengeance I'm getting from the first Annihilate though. I have inconsistencies like this:
  • Start with 91584 vengeance at 9.8s remaining (from Embodied Doubts), increase to 219598 when Annihilate hits.
  • Start with 121937 vengeance at 9.6s remaining (from Embodied Fears), increase to 215935 when Annihilate hits.
The problem is that I end up with more vengeance in the former case despite starting with ~14k less vengeance (after accounting for time remaining). Also, each Annihilate should give 157-158k vengeance and that doesn't match either figure (but it is accurate for subsequent Annihilate hits).

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Tremnen » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:36 pm

I have an idea on what could cause this but I'd need to see information on Vengeance updating as damage is taken and I can't seem to figure out how to see that in WoL.

I did try out Dispersion during bloodrage last night in a Flex run on Malkorok and it was a nice little dps boost, I can only assume in Hc 25 it will be much larger. I can't wait until Tuesday to test it.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:28 pm

Vengeance amount isn't in the combat log, sadly. I've been relying on video recordings.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Tremnen » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:07 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:Vengeance amount isn't in the combat log, sadly. I've been relying on video recordings.


i guess my best bet is to look at incoming damage and see how much damage my warriors are doing and try and reverse engineer how much vengeance they had. Not sure if I can do this if they both got gear this week. I'm currently not sure if they have, gonna have to go check their armories.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby aggixx » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:30 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:What I'm thinking is that after casting HotW+bear form, you eat the first two Annihilates with Dispersion. It's important to open with the strongest cooldown because you need some vengeance to power your Frenzied Regeneration when you have weaker cooldowns running.

After this, you can eat 4 more Annihilates with Might of Ursoc and Survival Instincts. Be warned that 12 seconds is barely enough to cover 4 hits, so you need to cast Survival Instincts right before the first Annihilate you intend to cover with it. Also, Might of Ursoc isn't just for the health pool -- it also increases your vengeance cap. So, Survival Instincts and Might of Ursoc should be enough to survive each hit (though you can also use Barkskin if you want), and by this point, you should have enough vengeance that you can cast Frenzied Regeneration to fully heal after each hit.

Ideally, you start this whole sequence exactly 6 Annihilates before the end of the phase, so that after the phase is over you still have 20 seconds of capped vengeance. It's not terrible to get extra Annihilates, but each Annihilate you don't eat reduces your vengeance by 15-20% of its previous value.

As I said though, I only tank this fight, so I have not tried this as feral. Do so at your own risk.

Edit: also, I would only expect this to be viable in 25-man raiding because the vengeance cap in 10-man raiding is lower.


Don't forget to glyph Might of Ursoc too! It'll still be off CD for every HotW and it'll boost you vengeance cap even higher, and make it a lot easier to survive.

Definitely will try this when I get a chance :lol:
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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:09 pm

Something I just realized:

Due to Blizzard's balancing efforts, Lightning Strike and Flurry of Xuen do way more damage for feral druids with HotW bear form than for actual guardian druids. Here's a picture of an Iron Juggernaut kill where I went bear for the last minute (note vengeance doesn't fall off when HotW expires -- it can just no longer be refreshed). Toward the end you see damage start to appear from lacerate, mangle-bear, and thrash-bear -- but also from flurry of xuen and lightning strike? In fact, the two legendary effects constituted a full third of my damage during that period.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Tremnen » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:51 am

Were you actively tanking during this time? (I've never used this particular log site before).

edit: Nvm you were tanking. Did this not lower your tanks average DPS by essentially stealing vengeance?

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Stenhaldi » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:55 am

Yeah, due to a tank death.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby inferiorlol » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:20 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Something I just realized:

Due to Blizzard's balancing efforts, Lightning Strike and Flurry of Xuen do way more damage for feral druids with HotW bear form than for actual guardian druids. Here's a picture of an Iron Juggernaut kill where I went bear for the last minute (note vengeance doesn't fall off when HotW expires -- it can just no longer be refreshed). Toward the end you see damage start to appear from lacerate, mangle-bear, and thrash-bear -- but also from flurry of xuen and lightning strike? In fact, the two legendary effects constituted a full third of my damage during that period.


http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QcY ... ity=137597

and

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QcY ... ity=147891

Just.. wow.

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Re: HotW Bear form DPS

Postby Tremnen » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:20 pm

Its honestly about as much damage as bear druids were doing in 5.2/5.3 with the dps meta. %wise

It was a straight 10% damage upgrade for me and in 10 man I had no survivability issues in ToT outside of tortos so I never worried about saccing the survivability for the crit + proc.

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