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Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/etc.)

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby cg1351 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:16 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Ah, yes it's completely fair to object to the fact that snapshotting is opaque to the default UI. If it were to stay, I would be certainly be arguing that DoT strength should show up in the default UI somewhere.

It does if you mouse over it.. Or we could start keeping mental track of what we had up when we applied these dots.. Am i the only one that wants to see things get more difficult and not easier? :(

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:39 am

Just got back from Blizzcon. Was a fun trip. I have 2 things to say tonight before I pass out.
1. Keep the discussion civil. Flaming will be deleted. Please don't make me have to do work.
2. Speaking to a VERY RELIABLE source during this weekend I have confirmation that bleed snapshotting is going to be removed. The same source also confirmed that they are very aware how much we depend on snap shotting to make Feral work. We will be getting a deep look this time around instead of the minor last minute changes we received during the MoP dev cycle. I was not able to confirm one way or another about the removed positional for Shred rumor.

More details tomorrow about the weekend (nothing earth shattering though). Now time to pass out.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Treeba » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:17 am

Let's not forgot feral was one of the most challenging specs to play in WotLK when bleed snapshotting wasn't something we cared much about. It's still possible that we'll have a difficult spec and I highly doubt we'll be taking the perma SR talent without some major changes to FB.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Alpheus » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:48 am

Treeba wrote:Let's not forgot feral was one of the most challenging specs to play in WotLK when bleed snapshotting wasn't something we cared much about. It's still possible that we'll have a difficult spec and I highly doubt we'll be taking the perma SR talent without some major changes to FB.


Pretty much this. Granted I would prefer not returning to the WotLK rotation since I've got quite spoiled with RoRO and RPPM procs this expansion and would rather prefer a new iteration which improves on this design.
Come to think of it, the only grudge I have with RPPM procs right now are the things that are connected with bleed snapshoting, ie. trinket overlaps vs. uptime and hoping you get a good overlap for BitW/AoE phases (HC Thok says hi). If we get the attention that Tinder hinted on plus the removal of painstaking proc management we can probably expect a really rewarding expansion (inb4 some talent breaks everything down :D)
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Paloro » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:05 pm

We didn't care much about it then because our risk vs reward was when to weave in a FB. That and we didn't really have many procs that would increase damage during a given time frame by so much.

I'm really quite irked about the whole situation. Perhaps I'll look at boomkin for the next expansion....or just quit.
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby aggixx » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:16 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:I was not able to confirm one way or another about the removed positional for Shred rumor.

I thought that was in one of the slides of their presentations? Pretty sure it was on MMO-C, so it should be confirmed.
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:48 pm

cg1351 wrote:Who would i speak to? I raided in method and envy as feral and at times have had rank1 on every progression fight (hc). Who are you again? :)


I am just a retired player/theorycrafter with a decent understanding of feral mechanics and the rotation. I already expressed why I dislike snapshotting. Since it is confirmed from a couple of sources that it is going away, lets shift the focus to the changes and what the implications are.

I have been meaning to ask, what do people think about the new raid structure? From a casual perspective, I really like the flexible structure and not being tied to an exact number of players. The one thing I didn't see discussed was role balance with a variable number of players, so I am assuming that you will be bounded by the number of healers/tanks and may still have to sit some dps on a given fight depending on the tuning. Still, from a casual perspective being about to bring in every player there and also increase the number of drops proportionally is pretty cool. It is also a nice way to be able to grow a team, or just play with old friends who are on other servers, or even build a team entirely from a cross server pool just to screw around.

How do the people feel about a single raid size of 20 for the "Mythic" raids? Will that lock out a lot of guilds from the really difficult content? It is easier to shrink a team then to grow it. From the perspective of tuning, it makes sense that Blizzard wants to only deal with a single size of raid for the most tightly tuned content.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tremnen » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:26 pm

I love that they gave everything the flex treatment. I hate what they are doing with Mythic. They managed to piss off 10 mans and 25 man raids all at the same time. 10 mans suddenly need to merge or recruit if they want to do progression on "heroic". 25 mans suddenly have to go look at their friends and say sorry but 5 of you need to go away. (I am in a 25 man and I envy the 10 man's in this situation because trying to cut 5 or more of our raiders is going to be painful). I don't understand why they came to the conclusion that 20 was some magic number. I understand the need for one difficulty so that they don't have to try and make 10 man encounters fit in a 25 man raid (and vice versa (Fights like Horridon/Dark Animus/Dark Shaman were clearly made for 25 man while a fight like Spoils was clearly made for 10 man)). However 20 just pisses both parties off. I understand if they made it 25 people would cry favoritism ect but 25 has been the standard high end raiding format since TBC guilds have very long extended histories with players reaching all the way back to then. 10 man is a relatively recent raiding scene by comparison (arising during Cata). What I am trying to say is if they want to make one number it should be 25 but I think they should just give up that notion entirely and go back t a 10-25 man model.

I also am extremely disappointed that each of the raid difficulties will have different loot lockouts. That means if a specific trinket/tier bonus is a huge upgrade you will be raiding 2+ raids a week hoping for a loot drop. Its WotLK all over again.

All of this said I really like every other change they are planning for the expansion (minus some talent gripes). They really need to fix this Mythic Raiding issue though.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Paloro » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:54 pm

I think there are more issues with the current 10-25 then there will be going into a 20 only.

Recruiting and dropping aside, the big issue I have/see is with less room to accommodate melee.
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby teddabear » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:05 pm

25 man guilds won't have a problem dropping to 20. Attrition will probably do that for them. Obviously there will be a lot of mergers going on with 10 man guilds which will probably cause a lot of drama for some guilds. Don't care about the item squish, tertiary stats sounds like a loot council nightmare. Removing reforging is going to suck. I like snapshotting, I would like to know why it is being removed. Blizzard always has trouble keeping their promises regarding Feral so I don't have high hopes that the rework is going to turn out well.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Sinilye » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:09 pm

Paloro wrote:Recruiting and dropping aside, the big issue I have/see is with less room to accommodate melee.


It's been that way for quite a few expansions; favoring range over melee. To add an opinion, I feel as if things won't be any better, since there's less room to play with raid comps / stacking classes.
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby aggixx » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:13 pm

teddabear wrote:25 man guilds won't have a problem dropping to 20.

This, if you aren't going to be losing 5 people from your roster between now and WoD launch you must have the most stable guild in the history of the game.
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tremnen » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:39 pm

we have players who have raided in this same guild since Tier 1.

We honestly might be the most stable guild in the game. that said we are still banking that 5 people will quit or leave hopefully.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tremnen » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:42 pm

teddabear wrote:25 man guilds won't have a problem dropping to 20. Attrition will probably do that for them. Obviously there will be a lot of mergers going on with 10 man guilds which will probably cause a lot of drama for some guilds. Don't care about the item squish, tertiary stats sounds like a loot council nightmare. Removing reforging is going to suck. I like snapshotting, I would like to know why it is being removed. Blizzard always has trouble keeping their promises regarding Feral so I don't have high hopes that the rework is going to turn out well.


If I go Melee next expansion it will be as a rogue. I will probably just go Mage though.

I like reforging for 1 reason and 1 reason only. It helps hit haste break points / hit / expertise breakpoints. Remove those and its not important anymore. Yes it means trinkets like RoRo can't easily be optimized for but they don't want gear / player skill on how to execute your class to be the priority anymore. I am only OK with this if it means mechanics in raids will be more challenging. I'd rather have to learn a fight than 1/2 pay attention to mechanics and 1/2 pay attention to trinket procs.

Tertiary skills will be a nightmare for loot council. If your group is running plate tanks good luck grabbing the yummy CDR stat pieces that's probably never going to happen.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby baver » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:51 pm

Wonder what they will do with our execute talant tho, feel like it will be kinda shit when they remove snapshot from bleeds.

About mythic, i did not know they removed 10man, that feels kinda wierd tbh. I think the bosses they can make will be alot more instrested tho! also one thing they realy have to fix is buff tranq to a 3min cd so we are more in line with the rogues tbh, might be abit op right now but just numbers should not be to hard to fix later on.

Dont look like they will add armor on our cats this expansion tho, abit sad about that :(

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tremnen » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:22 pm

baver wrote:Wonder what they will do with our execute talant tho, feel like it will be kinda shit when they remove snapshot from bleeds.

About mythic, i did not know they removed 10man, that feels kinda wierd tbh. I think the bosses they can make will be alot more instrested tho! also one thing they realy have to fix is buff tranq to a 3min cd so we are more in line with the rogues tbh, might be abit op right now but just numbers should not be to hard to fix later on.

Dont look like they will add armor on our cats this expansion tho, abit sad about that :(


at blizzcon they did say they were going to take a look at druid forms. Cats were never mentioned but who knows!

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby aggixx » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:45 pm

Tremnen wrote:at blizzcon they did say they were going to take a look at druid forms. Cats were never mentioned but who knows!

There was a point in one of the Q&A panels late in the second day where they said something like "Druid forms have gotten a lot of love in the past, it's not their turn yet but maybe in the future..." yada yada. So highly doubt they're even touching forms.
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Steakbomb » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:52 pm

Personally I don't see them removing snap shotting completely from the game. I think it will end up staying in the game for a spec like feral where Blood in the Water would be almost completely useless to us at that point.

Still very early on in development so I foresee a lot of changes happening.

Unfortunately for 10 man guilds the new difficulty helps us but really hurts us at the same time. Being able to bring in your full raid roster for every fight will help a bunch to keep people around the same gear level but at the same time we are going to need to either merge with another 10 man guild to get our 20 man roster or HEAVILY recruit before the next xpac. One of the things I love about 10 mans is that it is such a tight-knit group of players vs 25's usually have a few cliques in them.

I don't mind the druid forms now except that being a troll makes me suicidal but having Berserking is too nice to give up. Personally I would like to see them bring back the OLD SCHOOL Tauren cat/bear form and then I will go Tauren again no matter what. If would be cool if doing CM's or something next xpac gave us Incarnation armor on our forms all the time(kinda like a cat form transmog) or allowed us to find a cat in the wild and assume that form. I doubt something like that would happen but meh.

As far as the talents go, there is a lot of potential there but they need to give us more information on them first(IE what kind of damage Lunar will do) and at this point, they should just give us passive Savage Roar anyway instead of trying to dumb down our rotation. I think Thrash spreading Rake to all targets is just OP even if it's a reduced version of the Rake we applied. Cats already keep up pretty well with AoE so spreading a good Rake around is just OP.

I don't think the level 100 talents are even close to being done. It looks to me like Blizzard rushed the talents out and will be changing them around so that they aren't even recognizable.

If you look back at previous announcements of Expansions, what was said to be included, and what we actually got, you can basically take most things with a grain of salt. Until Friends & Family Beta is out, 80% of what was shown at BlizzCon will be changed.
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Treeba » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:17 pm

Steakbomb wrote:I don't think the level 100 talents are even close to being done. It looks to me like Blizzard rushed the talents out and will be changing them around so that they aren't even recognizable.

If you look back at previous announcements of Expansions, what was said to be included, and what we actually got, you can basically take most things with a grain of salt. Until Friends & Family Beta is out, 80% of what was shown at BlizzCon will be changed.


When he told everyone the talents were in the demo he very specifically said they are highly likely to change and they would love feedback on them so far. It's just a start. I wouldn't be at all surprised if 90% of them were changed before they even started beta testing.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby inferiorlol » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:54 pm

If the rotation plays out the way it does today except with the removal of snapshotting it is bye bye feral for me.

Snapshotting is what makes stuff fun. When you get a double trinket proc and you rush to get those 5 CP. You check the duration of the trinkets and your cd for TF and see that you can just squeeze a TF it in before one of your trinket falls off and then you put up dat fat Rip. And it feels awesome and fun. What will you do with no snapshotting? You don't even have to care about your procs, it's not like it will change your play style.

Just change BitW to something else to reduce the RNG of the "double trinket TF DoC potted 25% madness Rip", keep snapshotting and let me keep playing the most fun and complex class I know. If you need to implement a proper dot strength tracker in default UI just do it.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:47 pm

Treeba wrote:When he told everyone the talents were in the demo he very specifically said they are highly likely to change and they would love feedback on them so far. It's just a start. I wouldn't be at all surprised if 90% of them were changed before they even started beta testing.

Ya they wanted feedback of the ideas, not so much playability. The demo was set at level 90, so we had 0 access past looking at tool tips. The expertise/hit changes also weren't in the build so I figure they haven't done any of the changes yet, they have just been doing world/dungeon building.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:53 pm

inferiorlol wrote:If the rotation plays out the way it does today except with the removal of snapshotting it is bye bye feral for me.

Snapshotting is what makes stuff fun. When you get a double trinket proc and you rush to get those 5 CP. You check the duration of the trinkets and your cd for TF and see that you can just squeeze a TF it in before one of your trinket falls off and then you put up dat fat Rip. And it feels awesome and fun. What will you do with no snapshotting? You don't even have to care about your procs, it's not like it will change your play style.

Just change BitW to something else to reduce the RNG of the "double trinket TF DoC potted 25% madness Rip", keep snapshotting and let me keep playing the most fun and complex class I know. If you need to implement a proper dot strength tracker in default UI just do it.

Please refer to my pervious post. How we look today isn't how we are going to look like tomorrow. Right now we are built around snap shotting. When it goes away (which it will) they are going to change how we work. Because we have no idea what those new changes are, it's impossible to tell how fun the rotation will be or not be. Lower the panic level a bit. We have a REALLY long time before launch. Remember it takes about 6 months after the beta has started (which isn't even close to done right now).

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Steakbomb » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:17 am

I didn't see your previous post Tinder before I made mine about snap shotting being gone for sure.

With that being said, our class is heavily built around snapshotting and bleed strengths so seeing something like Savage Roar become a passive ability could help with having to constantly throw up new bleeds all the time. Although we may end up closer to a rogue where we aren't reliant on bleeds and they make it so our Mangle/Shred hits harder and we are all about smashing keys.

Personally I love having to watch bleeds, energy, and CP's so I really hope them taking snapshotting away doesn't effect our overall gameplay.

The way we are built currently is going to force them to take a good hard look at our class to change some things around so we are still a strong melee spec and not have us be like a Vanilla/BC spec. Wrath they made us a very hard class to play at a high level and Cata they just made it stupid easy to play.

I would like to see them keep our complexity the way that it is as most ferals play feral because of the difficulty involved. Bleeds are our bread and butter and to take that away would be a huge mistake.

If that happens then I probably won't play anymore as I am not main switching, I have WAY too much time invested in this toon as far as reps and such go. I didn't really go over most of the BlizzCon info as I don't care about the lore or which bosses we are fighting. I care about the mechanics that effect me as a Feral player. Until there is a Beta available and I am able to play a Feral with the changes that are being made, I am just going to sit back and watch the changes happen.

If I remember correctly, Tinder was in the Cata Beta back in the day and I was not and I spoke to him about ferals and the changes being made and A LOT of changes were made all the time. I would assume it will be the same way. They will release a Beta(which a few of the members here will get into) down the road so we will have more concrete information to go on and no doubt there will be a lot of theorycrafting and seeing how different each talent plays and how we stack up.

I wouldn't look into too much of the information being given until around 1 year from now when things start to become real.
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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Treeba » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:56 am

Steakbomb wrote:I wouldn't look into too much of the information being given until around 1 year from now when things start to become real.


If the next expansion isn't out in a year we have bigger problems.

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Re: Blizzcon Discussion (Level 100 Talents/Game Mechanics/et

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:03 am

I am expecting a June-July target which would put the start of the beta around the new year.

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