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Rogue Stuffs

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Rogue Stuffs

Postby Mandragaran » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:24 pm

So I decided to level a rogue (Mattraim - Lightbringer) because the only people who want my awesomeness want me to raid as if I can leave work at 3 p.m.

I believe there was some discussion about adding some threads/stickies on other toonage.

Might I request a real rogue thread? It seems to me that there are a lot of similarities between the rogue and the kitty such that it may make a logical first attempt. I have spent some time reviewing the hundreds of resources out there for rogue pve, and, frankly, they're not doing it for me.

Perhaps I'm partial to my favorite 3 feral theory crafters, but I don't think I have found an good balance of hard data mixed with common sense explanations. I've only seen extremes.

I'm not smart enough :P So who wants to volunteer!?

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Qbear » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:43 am

Hey I don't know about the quality of this blog; however, when I typed in Warcraft Rogue blogs into google it was the only one in the top 5 that even had a post on it in the last few weeks :-/ Hopefully you can find something along the lines of what your looking for.

http://foreveranoob.wordpress.com/

if not then who knows might be time for you to test your roguecraft and get some threads up here for discussion =)

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:41 pm

My first toon in vanilla was a rogue - and even as far back as that time, there has been one site that all the raiding rogues I have known over the years use: http://shadowpanther.net/

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby shinryu » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:53 pm

There's an irony somewhere that I just started a rogue too and need a bit of help XD

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Mandragaran » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:48 pm

So far, I'm not so l33t...

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby shinryu » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:01 pm

What spec are you leveling as? I'm still pretty much dominating everything in Ashenvale as a 25 Assassination Rogue, pretty easy to just Ambush/Eviscerate or double Mutilate anything to death really, don't even need to bother with SnD or anything, just stabby stabby. And I love being able to wander around pickpocketing mobs, it's so much fun and with the new 4.1 changes, you lose no speed while stealthed; I only wish I was at 70 so I can begin picking up the few Subtlety talents that increase stealth speed even more. And of course, Vanish is pure win along with sap, kick, etc...it's so much better and more fun than I remember leveling my druid long ago in late BC/early Wotlk, though I acknowledge leveling back then was even more of a pain...

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Mandragaran » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:21 pm

I've tried both Combat and Sub. I'm fine in either with mobs, etc. Sub is definitely not a dungeon/raid spec. I like it in BGs. So far Combat is sort of meh all around. I'm never first in randoms, which probably means I'm missing something.

Anyone, on any toon, who spends any time learning it, can consistently be first in random damage meters. I'm a little above "anyone" so I know something is weird unless rogue gear scaling just catches up later.

I'm going to play with assassination tonight.

Have you used it in BGs at all? I'm looking forward to it, actually, b/c I have both BoA daggers.

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby shinryu » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:10 pm

Mandragaran wrote:I've tried both Combat and Sub. I'm fine in either with mobs, etc. Sub is definitely not a dungeon/raid spec. I like it in BGs. So far Combat is sort of meh all around. I'm never first in randoms, which probably means I'm missing something.

Anyone, on any toon, who spends any time learning it, can consistently be first in random damage meters. I'm a little above "anyone" so I know something is weird unless rogue gear scaling just catches up later.

I'm going to play with assassination tonight.

Have you used it in BGs at all? I'm looking forward to it, actually, b/c I have both BoA daggers.

Definitely go with Assassination imo, rogues are still a tad squishy to take advantage of cleaving with Combat and Blade Fury. Whereas with Assassination, you get extra energy and to spam mutilate for easy cp and damage...only problem is Assassination relies only on daggers, whereas Combat can at least use different mh options (and oh if they exist I suppose), so unless you have your heirloom daggers, might be a bit of a pain getting weapons...I'm still using some old daggers from the teens, didn't find any at all in darkshore that were better than the worgen end quest one. Combat also had a couple of weird rules I thought I saw from looking at their rotation, which is why I mainly went for assassination, seemed more streamline and easier to pick up.

Sub actually isn't too bad I think later on when you can at least fill out the tree (they do use Recuperate as one of their finishers on a regular basis for some talent, so in theory you'd have a constant source of healing while leveling in addition to Sub's many other survivability trick), and apparently they're used on some hard mode encounters since they're apparently near impossible to kill later on in raiding.

Oh yeah, any recommendations on a 2nd prof? Engineering will be my first, always wanted to have engineering on someone that I actively play (stupid DK...), but I dunno what to compliment it with...don't need a gathering profession. Someone said JC, and while it's true I don't have a JCer, I'd prefer something more guild/group friendly in an odd sense, you know something I can bring to the table, as I do feel kinda lame that I partake in the feasts and cauldrons and really can't offer anything back since I don't have an alchemist that's maxed or an herb gatherer, etc etc. Inscription is also half tempting if only because they can make the cards and then I don't have to waste time getting the shoulder enchants.

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Mandragaran » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:21 am

I read this about a month ago (http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t110134-assassination_guide_cata_04_26_2011_a/#Professions)

Herbalism
Herbalists have Lifeblood which in addition to a heal over time, will grant you 480 haste rating (increased attack speed and energy regen) which is about 80 haste rating on average. This is clearly the best gathering profession for Assassination rogues.


Shadowpanther's charts seem to disagree (http://shadowpanther.net/professions.htm - looks like LW and Eng are the clear winners here). After I get over the seizure that link gave me I'll take another look.

I'm currently gathering (skinning and herbalism). I'll drop one or both at 85. I have two engineers that I actually play (my druid and my dk), so I'll strongly resist that, even though it's great for melee. I'll probably end up dropping skinning for scribe, b/c of this:

Inscription
Scribes are able to put Swiftsteel Inscription on their shoulders which is exactly 80 more Agility than [Greater Inscription of Shattered Crystal]. This also makes raising your reputation with Therazane to exalted not necessary but ultimately Scribes are on par with most craft professions.

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby felhoof » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:13 pm

He said GATHERING profession. It's definitely the best GATHERING profession right now for most DPS classes given how meh crit is and how bad stamina is.

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Arctagon » Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:06 pm

Leafkiller wrote:My first toon in vanilla was a rogue - and even as far back as that time, there has been one site that all the raiding rogues I have known over the years use: http://shadowpanther.net/

This. I have been using Shadowpanther for a very long time myself, and it is a website of imponderably superior quality. It contains invaluable information, and I would unquestionably recommend it to any serious rogue.

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:25 pm

As a side note, I have been leveling up a Worgen rogue - just hit 72. Been leveling Assassination (mut). Things die fast enough - and the 45% increased experience from guild/boa gear helps just a little bit...

I just copied a leveling spec from a thread on rogue leveling: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#ffhfzsGzoGobZ0h:qVkRikmcV

It has some abilities you would not use in for raiding but help with leveling. I am tempted to deviate a little and grab some points in Nightstalker so my stealthed movement speed will be really ridiculous.

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby shinryu » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:48 pm

lol, you as well Leafkiller? Worgen rogue for me as well XD, though still only 42 >.>

So I have a random question about rogues...it seems frequently the term mutilate (or mut) rogues comes up quite a bit, but Mutilate itself is an ability only assassination gets isn't it? So do some rotations of assassination not use mutilate at all, or am I missing something entirely here...?

I personally also build up my spec with the end game raiding one in mind, I do it with all my classes actually; saves a bit of gold on respec (yes I'm that lazy to complain about 1g) and it's not like you have to concern yourself overly with taking talents that are better for leveling, as things die quickly enough when you're stabbing them repeatedly.

Also, I know most of you are probably using heirlooms daggers, but for those that aren't, have many dropped at all? I literally used 2 daggers I got in my teens all the way till last night, when one dropped off a mob and I bought the other cheap on the ah for 5g. But seriously, almost 30 levels and no daggers from any quests? And I did most of the ones in darkshore and ashenvale, skipped over desolace though, and nothing in Feralas at all...so yeah, that kinda sucked; I suspect I could be another level or two higher by now if I'd had better daggers >.>

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:36 am

There are many daggers from quest drops. As far as I know the only assassination spec people use is the "Mut" spec - that is your primary combo point generator in PVE.

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby shinryu » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:06 am

Huh...I honestly didn't even know people could play assassination without using mutilate...though I do wish they'd allow something besides solely daggers at times (but then again, I suppose that's what combat is for, even if they're pigeonholed into using the same quick OH daggers).

Where are you questing by chance? Because I totally swear I have not seen any daggers at all in Kalimdor, just got done wading through Thousand Needles, did about every quest there up through the Magatha line (got the achieve as well)...nothing. Nothing from Feralas with the questing achieve, Desolace (to be fair, didn't do much in Desolace though as I just queued up a lot once I saw they really didn't change anything and I remember how bad questing there before was) and nothing in Darkshore or Ashenvale as well while getting the questing achieves. So I mean, either I'm pretty dang unlucky in not finding the one right quest, or Kalimdor just doesn't have many quests with dagger drops as rewards...

SM also hated me, dropped the stupid fist weapon every time I got into Cemetery :(

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:24 pm

I quested mostly in Eastern Kingdoms. There is always backstab if you are behind a mob...

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby shinryu » Sun May 01, 2011 6:14 am

lol...unless you're running a lot of dungeons I suppose with someone tanking the mob, I have yet to even bother using Backstab as you can never get in front of the dang mobs unless you like open with Backstab...besides, I thought Assassination only favored Backstab at 35% and lower health on a mob since that's when the talents kicked in? Besides, in all honesty, after playing feral I have no desire to have to maintain a lame positional requirement to deal optimal damage unless I have to lol (which probably explains my lack of want to play subtlety lol).

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Leafkiller » Sun May 01, 2011 6:34 pm

The first toon I leveled up in Vanilla was a night elf rogue (who is stuck at level 62 despite having been level 60 within a few months of the release of WoW). I leveled subtlety - but with swords, opening with a stun, using SS, gouge and Evis to burn down the mobs. I tried a dagger/backstab spec for running instances and despised trying to get behind the mobs (there was no mutilate in those days).

I did do a little raiding on him in MC and BWL - after my druid no longer had a reason to be there, and went combat with sword specialization. After playing a feral for so long, I don't think the positioning would be nearly as traumatic as it was when I first tried it on that rogue.

It is interesting that all through BC, WOTLK, and the early part of cata I just could not bring myself to level that rogue, and yet I have managed to level a brand new rogue up to level 73 with no sense of burnout...

If you are having trouble finding daggers, you can always look to swords (or whatever) and use a combat spec. Is there a reason you are not using the BoA daggers?

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby shinryu » Sun May 01, 2011 11:35 pm

Leafkiller wrote:The first toon I leveled up in Vanilla was a night elf rogue (who is stuck at level 62 despite having been level 60 within a few months of the release of WoW). I leveled subtlety - but with swords, opening with a stun, using SS, gouge and Evis to burn down the mobs. I tried a dagger/backstab spec for running instances and despised trying to get behind the mobs (there was no mutilate in those days).

I did do a little raiding on him in MC and BWL - after my druid no longer had a reason to be there, and went combat with sword specialization. After playing a feral for so long, I don't think the positioning would be nearly as traumatic as it was when I first tried it on that rogue.

It is interesting that all through BC, WOTLK, and the early part of cata I just could not bring myself to level that rogue, and yet I have managed to level a brand new rogue up to level 73 with no sense of burnout...

If you are having trouble finding daggers, you can always look to swords (or whatever) and use a combat spec. Is there a reason you are not using the BoA daggers?

Too lazy to farm JP actually (I stopped doing daily heroics a while back)...got tons of worthless VP lying around, but as you can't downgrade points yet...that and I honestly thought it would be a lot easier to find random daggers from quests and stuff, so I went ahead and got the leather heirloom stuff instead (as wearing cloth on a rogue is a bit lame).

I've been tempted to dual spec combat actually, but eh...I'd rather wait till 85 and use it as a pvp spec.

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Sylvaneart » Mon May 02, 2011 11:30 am

My guild mate wrote the guide on WoW forums for PVE. I will see if he can get in here and contribute.
Be sure to subscribe to The Fluid Druid RSS feed and follow me on twitter! @Sylvaneart

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby shinryu » Sat May 14, 2011 2:54 am

Trying out Combat atm (lol dual spec costing 10g, I want a 990g refund on my main), I'm finding it underwhelming personally. Assassination generates CP much quicker and with less button pushing imo, not to mention getting random free ones all the time, whereas Combat really doesn't, not to mention erratic energy gains. It seems like Combat needs to steal points from all the other trees to gain the added free CP generation to me, or who knows, maybe I'm doing it all wrong...Sub eh, a guildmate swears by it for leveling, using Shadowstep and Kidney Shots to stay behind something to stab it with Backstab, but after using Feral for so long, I don't really want to experience the utter annoyance at having to stay behind something all the time. Not to mention that's a lot of trouble just to kill stuff leveling...though I might give Sub a whirl for pvp later...so yeah, I'm at 69 atm, I'll try sticking with Combat till 71, but I'll probably just change back to Assassination after. Only main plus for Combat is that it's not limited to only daggers, that and they do a lot more basic white damage (or at least feels like it).

So now for my main question, what're some good rogue addons? Ovale has spoiled me for the druid and I want to try staying away from it on the rogue, so does anyone know of like a good timer for all the different buffs we have to keep up?

Edit: Ok Combat isn't too bad in dungeons, kicks ass with Blade Fury on trash lol. Still feels a bit lacking in other aspects, mainly can't get the rotation going since everything dies so quickly, but eh, not too bad.

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Leafkiller » Sat May 14, 2011 1:26 pm

Here is a post on the Ovale forums for a modified rogue script - I am not sure how good it is but it might be a decent place to start learning the rotation: http://wow.curseforge.com/addons/ovale/ ... -spree/#p6

BTW my rogue is level 82 now - you better get going...

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby shinryu » Sat May 14, 2011 10:40 pm

Well I understand the basic idea of the rotations, so I'm not really looking to be ovale-dependent per say...

Also I level EXTREMELY slowly, so there's no way I'll be hitting 85 for at least another 2-3 weeks min. Raiding + work also eats up a lot of free time >.>

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby Mandragaran » Fri May 27, 2011 9:32 pm

That's pretty helpful. Thanks, Leaf.

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Re: Rogue Stuffs

Postby shinryu » Fri May 27, 2011 11:55 pm

Still only 78 >.>

Trying to hit 79-80 tonight, but man it sucks...cata should be a bit faster at least than northrend, though that could be because it's also only 5 levels lol.

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