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Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby teddabear » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:26 am

Zstriker wrote:
teddabear wrote:I know it's a first pass but it was an extremely poor first pass as far as Feral is concerned. If Feral receives the same treatment as it has in recent expansions it will be unplayable when WoD goes live.


recent expansions were great for ferals, they have valid raid and arena/bg spots, if you are so whiny and scared don't play it then, there 11 other classes with 3 spec each, go choose, thats message to all those cryers with radical changes they want to see. I play my feral long ago since tbc I saw bad times for that class spec, but now they are no longer acceptable to kitties and many more will be playing and top meters and ranks with their adorable faceripping creatures as they used to do


Incorrect. Blizzard half asses Feral every time because they never got around to it, and then they layer on the band-aids all expansion trying to make it playable.

They finally get it to a good spot for the very last tier and people forget about how long and how bad it sucked.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:53 am

Feral has been fine since tier 8.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Sibylle » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:21 am

I really don't see what the QQ is about. So far the changes look great, and far from "dumbing down" the game. Abilities we've never used before replace the ones that are pruned, and the complexity will stay high if you want to play optimally. It'll be *different* but there's no indication that it'll be boring.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Zstriker » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:30 am

teddabear wrote:Incorrect. Blizzard half asses Feral every time because they never got around to it, and then they layer on the band-aids all expansion trying to make it playable.

They finally get it to a good spot for the very last tier and people forget about how long and how bad it sucked.


that tell me you are one of rerollers (even I see in your armory you played alot in wrath even have fos achievement from tbc times, but I have feeling it was another spec, you also missed whole Cataclysm and half of MoP), coz there were thoughts, rumors and talks around that feral sucks, which were coming from old vanilla and tbc times, bear was a choice for feral spec

Sibylle wrote:I really don't see what the QQ is about. So far the changes look great, and far from "dumbing down" the game. Abilities we've never used before replace the ones that are pruned, and the complexity will stay high if you want to play optimally. It'll be *different* but there's no indication that it'll be boring.

people complain coz it's not the way they personaly want, and it won't be a Super-Uber-Overpower class specialization they want to be top everywhere, compare to other

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby ellorien » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:51 am

Zstriker wrote: if you are so whiny and scared don't play it then


Zstriker wrote:that tell me you are one of rerollers (even I see in your armory you played alot in wrath even have fos achievement from tbc times, but I have feeling it was another spec, you also missed whole Cataclysm and half of MoP)


Zstriker wrote:people complain coz it's not the way they personaly want, and it won't be a Super-Uber-Overpower class specialization they want to be top everywhere, compare to other


Let's not get into personal attacks or flaming here. This has been a great community in all this time and I'd like to see it remain that way.

Sibylle wrote:I really don't see what the QQ is about. So far the changes look great, and far from "dumbing down" the game. Abilities we've never used before replace the ones that are pruned, and the complexity will stay high if you want to play optimally. It'll be *different* but there's no indication that it'll be boring.


I'm quite sorry to see the more complex DoC rotation taken out. The current alternative rotation doesn't really give the John Madden crowd what they were looking for. However, it is definitely too early yet to be doom-saying; perhaps we'll get something else.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Sibylle » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:21 am

ellorien wrote:
Sibylle wrote:I really don't see what the QQ is about. So far the changes look great, and far from "dumbing down" the game. Abilities we've never used before replace the ones that are pruned, and the complexity will stay high if you want to play optimally. It'll be *different* but there's no indication that it'll be boring.


I'm quite sorry to see the more complex DoC rotation taken out. The current alternative rotation doesn't really give the John Madden crowd what they were looking for. However, it is definitely too early yet to be doom-saying; perhaps we'll get something else.

Yeah, that's what I think. Personally I wasn't a fan of the DoC rotation because I found it clunky, but I know many people love it and will miss it. But there's every indication that other forms of complexity will replace this, so I stay optimistic for the time being :)
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Whitepaw » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:39 am

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents concerning "complexity" in Feral gameplay.

It seems to me that what a lot of you see as "complexity" is in fact just an elaborate dps rotation/priority. I don't mind the situation we have now, but it's gone way beyond being "complex" - and that's probably why Blizzard is dialing it back.

The fact is that right now, you can't do competitive dps as Feral, unless you run a heavily modded UI. You also need to read forums like these to know the more detailed aspects of Feral damage dealing (like the fact that Thrash is a dps gain - on single-target). The Feral dps rotation/priority of today is over-elaborated, over-designed and counter-intuitive. And the worst part is when people call out other players as being "bad", just because their setup is not heavily modded and they are unaware of the latest simulated stat weights.

I would argue that a skilled player in WoW is someone who's able to contribute to the success of his team. But for a long time (since end of TBC), a dps spec has ONLY been meassured by the dps delivered. Just reading the posts in this thread confirms this view: A lot of the redundant abilities (the ones causing ability "bloat") seem to be CC-abilities, with healing abilities following up. Is this because of PvE encounter design? I believe it is.

I would like PvE encounters to demand a LOT more attention to the correct use of CC abilities and off-spec healing. But for this to happen, Blizzard needs to remove the over-engineered Feral playstyle we have right now. The devs have to free up buttons for our CC and healing abilities, they have to simplify our dps rotation and they have to make encounters more melee-friendly. In Cataclysm, there was actually one very hard encounter, which demanded CC and off-spec healing: Ragnaros HC. Moonkins were stacked for that reason (Typhoon+Tranq).

We also have to move a bit - mentally. We have to leave this dps-centric discussion and acknowledge that skilled gameplay in an MMO is not just about having a complex dps rotation/priority. Personally, I can't wait for the more hybrid healing-style that WoD seems to be aiming for. And I'd love if the PvE encounters demanded and rewarded more CC and off-spec healing, maybe even role-switches during the encounter.

That would add true complexity.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby teddabear » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:34 am

Zstriker wrote:
that tell me you are one of rerollers (even I see in your armory you played alot in wrath even have fos achievement from tbc times, but I have feeling it was another spec, you also missed whole Cataclysm and half of MoP), coz there were thoughts, rumors and talks around that feral sucks, which were coming from old vanilla and tbc times, bear was a choice for feral spec


I played 1 month of Cataclysm, that was enough to make me quit for 2 years. What really has me irritated is Blizzard's comment that Bleeds shouldn't benefit from Haste because we get resources instead. That shows a total disconnect from reality. They said they were going to remove Raid CDs from DPS which sounded perfectly reasonable and then they let almost everybody keep their CDs in a reduced form except for Tranq. The Ferocious Bite buff is laughable. With no snapshotting the only skill left would have been squeezing in as many FBs as possible but at +20% it will never be worth the risk. As I said it's just the first pass so there are certainly many changes to come but I have yet to speak with any Heroic raiders on my server that were pleased. If the next big release of information isn't a whole lot better it will not surprise me if 80% of Heroic raiders leave the game in WoD. So far it's like somebody took the Dumber knob and cranked it to 11. Yes I thought it was reasonable to give Raid CDs to just the healers but honestly I enjoyed the occasional fight where every player had to utilize every ability they had to down the boss. It usually only happened when you're undergeared but it sounds like the days of 30, 50 or 70 pulls for that first kill are over.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Elamari » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:27 am

Zstriker wrote: because it's not ability bloat when you barely use them, but STILL USE...I don't have soothe,hebirnate, hurricane, tranqulity, roots, cyclone,Innervate, teleport to moonglade etc on active action bar, but I still have them and have a free keybinded space to put skill there which I need in exactly pve enviroment, so how they are bloat me if they are in my unlimited sized spell book

It has been explicitly stated that reducing button bloat was going to focus on abilities that are not apart of core rotations, are not iconic spells yet still take up a keybind. Hurricane / tranq are commonly used (CD and hotw), roots / cyclone / hibernate are common in PVP - hibernate less so. Teleport moonglade is an iconic spell and is less likely to take up an important keybind.

Soothe on the other hand is an ability that is likely to take a key bind, but as I mentioned in my blog post, is not often used in encounter design. When it is, it can be our geared / healed through or nullified through CC / stuns and is only dispellable by 3 classes, limiting encounter design due to 10 man raid comps. It is used a bit more in PVP from my understanding (I don't play much PVP but it can be used on warriors IIRC).

Given how useless Innervate is for Feral's, I thought it would have become a Moonkin / Resto only ability like Nature's Swiftness did.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Lynxx » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:38 am

Tedda, you are looking at these changes all wrong. For one, this is alpha! We don't know what is going to be rolling out when 6.0 actually gets here. I personally like the changes they are making across the board for all classes. I think they are taking the right approach to this expansion. Yes i will miss DoC but I love feral. I always have, always will. TBH i really just love the druid in general. DPS is one thing but using the tools you are given as your respective role is where you can shine. So we are losing Tranq, oh well. If you are being a good dps and using your buffed SI and glyphs and such, maybe the raid wont need an extra tranq. Also with the changes to healing, Id say there will be less dire need for big chunky type cooldowns anyway. Also from this heroic raiders PoV, Im looking forward to the expansion. Most heroic raiders I know dont let a simple set of patch notes put them off from an entire expansion. In fact most heroic raiders I know don't really care, other than knowing how they need to adapt their playstyle/gearing etc. Maybe thats just me though.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:00 am

As far as raid survival utility goes, here is a direct comparison using Warlords alpha values.

Nature's Vigil copies 35% of damage and 16% of healing as additional healing for 30 seconds (90 second cooldown). [Changed from 25% of damage and healing.]

Ancestral Guidance copies 60% of damage and healing as additional healing for 10 seconds (120 second cooldown). [Changed from 120% of damage and 180% of healing.]

At face value, NV is now better than AG! Actually AG has some compensation for its numerical inferiority: it works off multiple-target damage, it does its healing over a shorter period, and DPS shamans are better poised (through precast healing rain) to take advantage of the healing conversion as well. But still, the two are competitive with each other.

So there's one class that's not ahead of feral in raid survival utility. Another is windwalker, which is not gaining anything in that department. A third is retribution, which is losing devotion aura. (These classes have other utility assets, but those are another topic.)

It remains to be seen how rogues will fare with 10% smoke bomb, warriors with 15% rallying cry (and no demo banner), and DKs with 20% AMZ. This mostly depends on whether Blizzard succeeds in their stated intention of making player health bars "not binary" -- but if they do succeed, then I wouldn't worry about those either.

So that's the comparison with the other melee classes. On the general topic of whether damage dealers should have raid survival cooldowns, I'll say this. It's fun to have some capabilities in a raid besides pure damage. It's even better if those capabilities are fun to use in their own right. One-button cooldowns aren't terribly interesting: in a challenging fight, they'll be used as part of a cooldown rotation, and all that each player does is to press their button at the appropriate time. This is why I like the rejuvenation change: it's actually interesting to use in its own right. You have to pick targets and find time to cast. You do more than just press a button at a specified time.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:10 am

Please keep things constructive, saying things like "These changes are really dumb" without any justification isn't adding anything to the discussion but negativity.

Stenhaldi wrote:Another is windwalker, which is not gaining anything in that department. A third is retribution, which is losing devotion aura. (These classes have other utility assets, but those are another topic.)

They are the same topic, at least in the dev's minds. They are not looking just to balance raid cooldowns (whether it be pumping out some healing or offering a small mitigation effect), but raid utility as whole. Note that when I say raid utility, I'm talking about what you as the individual bring as a benefit to the raid aside from (pseudo-)passive buffs.

It was pretty clear during yesterday's FinalBoss interview that Windwalker's benefit is supposed to be their movement speed aura (which btw, is an additive bonus only effective when you don't have any other temporary effects active) and Retribution's benefit is their Hands and Lay on Hands.

Of course whether this is a fair way to balance things can be argued.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:16 am

Right. I was talking about raid survival cooldowns in particular because that was the topic of the post to which I was responding.

Ret paladins still have their hand spells. Windwalkers have their movement speed aura. We have stampeding roar. And movement is certainly a very powerful raid utility: it's one of the reasons warlocks have been such a desired class this expansion.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby aggixx » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:20 am

teddabear wrote:I played 1 month of Cataclysm, that was enough to make me quit for 2 years. What really has me irritated is Blizzard's comment that Bleeds shouldn't benefit from Haste because we get resources instead. That shows a total disconnect from reality. They said they were going to remove Raid CDs from DPS which sounded perfectly reasonable and then they let almost everybody keep their CDs in a reduced form except for Tranq. The Ferocious Bite buff is laughable. With no snapshotting the only skill left would have been squeezing in as many FBs as possible but at +20% it will never be worth the risk. As I said it's just the first pass so there are certainly many changes to come but I have yet to speak with any Heroic raiders on my server that were pleased. If the next big release of information isn't a whole lot better it will not surprise me if 80% of Heroic raiders leave the game in WoD. So far it's like somebody took the Dumber knob and cranked it to 11. Yes I thought it was reasonable to give Raid CDs to just the healers but honestly I enjoyed the occasional fight where every player had to utilize every ability they had to down the boss. It usually only happened when you're undergeared but it sounds like the days of 30, 50 or 70 pulls for that first kill are over.

Aside from bleed hasting, all of your concerns are because you're taking everything they say at face value without considering context, or out of context entirely.

I highly doubt you can find a source of them saying that they were going to remove all raid CDs from DPS. They've always said they were interested in toning down the strength and availability of raid cooldowns, which is exactly what they have done: Classes that had several now only have one (or none, if they had enough utility in other departments), cooldown strength was brought down to be lower that healers' cooldowns, and classes that brought zero raid utility (Mages) were granted one.

Perks are not buffs and you should not look at them as such, except for the ones that offer real mechanical differences. In the end, the damage bonuses can be tuned around and change pretty much nothing. The one thing they do offer is some (very vague) idea of their intent in balancing.

And stop with the hyperbole, it's silly and offers nothing to the discussion.

Whitepaw wrote:It seems to me that what a lot of you see as "complexity" is in fact just an elaborate dps rotation/priority. I don't mind the situation we have now, but it's gone way beyond being "complex" - and that's probably why Blizzard is dialing it back.

The fact is that right now, you can't do competitive dps as Feral, unless you run a heavily modded UI. You also need to read forums like these to know the more detailed aspects of Feral damage dealing (like the fact that Thrash is a dps gain - on single-target). The Feral dps rotation/priority of today is over-elaborated, over-designed and counter-intuitive. And the worst part is when people call out other players as being "bad", just because their setup is not heavily modded and they are unaware of the latest simulated stat weights.

While I totally understand why you would think that (I'm sure it's not an uncommon sentiment), I wouldn't say that's entirely true. It is true that most of the things some have come to love about the feral rotation are almost purely complexity for the sake of complexity, and that can definitely be tuned back and replaced with simpler but more engaging mechanics. Unfortunately, we haven't really got any of those yet; a case could be argued for Lunar Inspiration, but Savagery (and to some extent, Bloody Thrash) actually remove gameplay instead of adding to it (and we don't really have any new mechanics aside from those).

Feral can be played to it's maximum on default UI by a very skilled player, it's just plain untrue to say that feral requires addons to play. However, what properly configured addons grant you in terms of in-combat performance is the same as it does for any specialization: allowing you to do the same performance, but with a significantly lower attentiveness requirement, which allows you to focus much better and perform your part in the raid encounter instead of just doing lots of damage. In this regard, I would say it's accurate to state that feral requires addons to play effectively, but really this is the exact same story for pretty much every other specialization in the game, just to a lesser extent. If you're not using appropriately-configured addons in your UI, you're just plain less effective than you would be with them, but people have some notion of pride that prevents them from admitting this, or otherwise just don't understand the purposes addons serve.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:09 pm

I really don't want to sound like a broken record, but some points can get lost in earlier parts of a rapidly growing thread. Feral is getting significantly easier in WoD. This is not a matter of taste or impression or opinion.

Pandemic
No Snapshotting
No DoC
Change to CPs

These four things massively lower the skill ceiling on the spec while barely lowering the skill floor. This is a substantial hit on the depth of our spec. In 5.4 the difference between a bad feral and a good feral was a decent margin, and a good feral could get by no problem. The more impressive aspect, though, was that the difference between a good feral and expert feral was just as large or even larger a margin. There was so much room to grow and optimize and improve.

Blizzard didn't expect ferals to do what they did in 5.4, and they very assuredly didn't like it. It's like we flew too close to the sun, and Blizzard burned away absolutely every aspect of the spec that could ever again allow us to soar.

Perhaps an appropriate place to keep feral would be essentially what it is in 5.4, with DoC, with no snapshotting, which forces the player to be constantly attentive to his rotation and roll-with-the-punches, as it were, of his ever-shifting priority list. But in WoD, we are even losing DoC, and in its place, we are offered talents that reduce the difficulty of the spec even further, instead of the opposite, assuming lunar inspiration remains as un-inspired as it appears to be on the surface.

Feral has been in places like this before, though, and has survived. It will continue to, but I've tasted the sweetness of a truly expert spec, and it leaves a very bitter lingering when taken away.



In a slightly unrelated note, though, Sten brings up a great point on the topic of Catform Rejuv. This actually does provide feral with some additional interesting gameplay that can separate good ferals from great ferals.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Sibylle » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:52 pm

How did CPs on the target require a higher skill level from the player?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby hullaballoonatic » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:25 pm

Because the obstacle of losing your cps when switching targets provided an immense amount of decision making in multi-target fights. Feral may not have been the best equipped in order to deal with that issue, but it provided some very interesting challenge and reinforced the impression that feral and rogue should have a more intelligent approach to combat. I love fights like spoils for precisely this reason. Learning how to deal damage best with ferals odd toolkit in add fights and limitations of the combo point system really made that fight rewarding to excel on.

Putting CPs on the player completely removes that part of the gameplay.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:31 pm

Combo point management. We now get to make use of every combo point we generate instead of losing combo points when you swapped targets.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:38 pm

Blizzard didn't expect ferals to do what they did in 5.4, and they very assuredly didn't like it. It's like we flew too close to the sun, and Blizzard burned away absolutely every aspect of the spec that could ever again allow us to soar.

I am not sure what you are getting at here. There was a desire to have DoC simplified before 5.4, but they weren't able to do it with out destabilizing the game so they didn't. Now if you are talking about us being made into a Single Target killing machine, ya they knew that was coming. It was very clear when we were already doing pretty decent and then they buffed Rip.

While I am not super excited with some of the simplifications that we are seeing, they are making some good steps to make us better. Now what the end result will be who knows. Its way to early to be throwing out "I'm going to quit if the new notes aren't better". It's going to take a while to start getting the full context of the changes, and what ever new changes are going to happen. Let's take some long soothing breaths and keep with the constructive feedback.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby teddabear » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:43 pm

I realize this is Alpha but it's the whole general tone and direction that concerns me. Sure the 20% to FB might get buffed but that's not the issue. The fact that they started at 20% shows they are not going to make it a meaningful ability. In the interest of constructive feedback this is for Blizzard. Forget the numbers, everything has been simplified and streamlined, great! Now show me something interesting or compelling. Show us something fun. Why should I play WoD?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Stenhaldi » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:00 pm

The "+20% to ability" are just filler perks because they didn't have anything interesting to put in those slots. The number doesn't mean much with respect to Blizzard's actual intention with the ability (notice how every class has a bunch of perks that all happen to be 20%) -- these are just stuff to make leveling more interesting. The balancing hasn't started, and most likely isn't going to be done through leveling perks.

Keep in mind the perks were all datamined. It's not like Blizzard went and said "we're buffing Ferocious Bite by 20%".

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby teddabear » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:52 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:The "+20% to ability" are just filler perks because they didn't have anything interesting to put in those slots. The number doesn't mean much with respect to Blizzard's actual intention with the ability (notice how every class has a bunch of perks that all happen to be 20%) -- these are just stuff to make leveling more interesting. The balancing hasn't started, and most likely isn't going to be done through leveling perks.

Keep in mind the perks were all datamined. It's not like Blizzard went and said "we're buffing Ferocious Bite by 20%".


Yes the numbers for everybody's perks are all meaningless because damage will later be tuned around it but it would have to be serveral orders of magnitude higher to make FB meaningful so I think its pretty safe to say that isn't going to happen unless they do a 180.

Perhaps I can better explain with a story.

Customer: I'd like my usual please.

WoW Developer: Well we made some changes to that Pepperoni, Spinach, Feta and Garlic Pizza you like so much. The garlic scaled to well and the spinach not well enough and it was too hard to balance the Feta. We have simplified the whole thing and removed the Pepperoni, Spinach, Feta and Garlic. Here you go - Cheese Pizza!

Customer: But I don't like cheese pizza. :(


So do I settle for Blizzard's Cheese Pizza or am I better off finding someone who will at least try to make what I want, even if they don't get it exactly right.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Paloro » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:06 pm

Except you don't know all the other conditionals. Maybe Blizzard has changed the dough, sauce, and cheese blend? Perhaps they even upgraded to a brick oven? Maybe they just made the best possible cheese pizza there is. Are you not going to try it with only such little information?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Polihayse » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:33 pm

As long as blizzard is aware that there are people who play feral for the complexity of it, we should be fine imo. For the most part, these changes are keeping things fresh.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Postby Dagzter » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:36 pm

hullaballoonatic wrote:I really don't want to sound like a broken record, but some points can get lost in earlier parts of a rapidly growing thread. Feral is getting significantly easier in WoD. This is not a matter of taste or impression or opinion.

Pandemic
No Snapshotting
No DoC
Change to CPs


Forgive an old Feral, as I've been away from my druid for quite a while and I'm undoubtedly showcasing my own ignorance, but I have a very basic/silly question: with regards to 'Pandemic' does that suggest (in our current thinking ofc) that there will be no penalty to clipping/refreshing our DoTs whenever we please? Ignoring for the moment the reduced 'Snapshotting' that will still remain, of course?

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