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4.2 changes

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Zaxxan » Thu May 05, 2011 12:59 am

The 4p is confusing but could be somewhat insane depending on the increased length on berserk. I don't think it'll make FB worth doing just to up the berserk length, but it's possible in some situations it will. It's going to be hard to model, that's for sure


The thing I take from that is it shows they are aware that right now we do a whole lot of nothing during berserk except shred, so at least they are trying to fix it. Though I would prefer there to be more reason to use FB other than because my tier bonus says so.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Thu May 05, 2011 1:11 am

The 2p I agree is fairly boring, another dot, but at least one we don't care about to watch. And the 4p is confusing, with soo many questions for it, but at face value a 102 second Berserk is kinda meh IMO...all we'll end up doing is likely wasting lots of it IMO unless our energy regen is improved a ton, heck you can glyph Berserk right now and portions will be wasted since you'll run out of energywhile it's still up...guess we'll see though, still gonna be a long time before 4.2 hits.

And again, I totally called fire cat form :P

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Darkhoof » Thu May 05, 2011 9:11 am

well it seems like its bound the the epic staff mentioned in another thread, not a new spell or a glyph.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Sylvaneart » Thu May 05, 2011 12:51 pm

I know we are in the Ketteh section but i read this on MMO-C

Feral•Lacerate no longer causes a high amount of threat.

That happened with 4.1.
•Lacerate bonus threat has been removed and replaced with increased initial damage done.

So this should just be a tooltip fix.
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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby monxide » Thu May 05, 2011 1:02 pm

I'm kinda puzzled with 4t12 bonus. What the hell is it, 100% berserk uptime? If the tooltip on wowhead is correct, surely. Strange way to fix the feral scaling problem, like really, lol.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Monopedia » Thu May 05, 2011 1:27 pm

I expect the 4 set to be something like 2+ (2*combo points) with the (20*combopoint) being a tooltip error/data mined error
with 5 combo points this would be an extra 12 seconds - close to what the Retribution 4 set is, Zealotry duration extended by 15 seconds

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu May 05, 2011 2:54 pm

felhoof wrote:The 4p is confusing but could be somewhat insane depending on the increased length on berserk. I don't think it'll make FB worth doing just to up the berserk length, but it's possible in some situations it will. It's going to be hard to model, that's for sure :)


Because of how FB works with Berserk I don't see how this could possibly work unless you glyph FB. Currently when Berserk is up the cost of FB is reduced by half as expected but the amount of extra energy (35) is not. As a result with a mostly full energy bar doing a FB would kill what energy you have. Currently doing a FB during Berserk is a really bad idea unless you do it at the very end and are sub 25% on the boss. But if we were to glyph FB we could still do some extra damange with the otherwise wasted points and extend berserk a little longer.

I agree with Shinryu though about running out of energy with Berserk Glyphed. With out some mechanic changes I can't see glyphing both FB and Berserk at the same time.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu May 05, 2011 3:03 pm

Something else just popped into my head about the 4p bonus. This will require way more information and math to verify. The thought is this: Won't this bonus's effectiveness be based completly on fight duration? A 7 minute fight would be ideal as we get to use Berserk twice with little time left after the second one. However something like a 9 minute fight may cause it be less effective as we still likely only get to use it twice and have spent most of our time out of our 3minute cooldown. If sets continue to be as badly itemized as they have been in the past based on how good your guild is doing on a said boss may actually make this bonus better or worse. Does this sound right, or am I way off base?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Sylvaneart » Thu May 05, 2011 3:11 pm

I see your points hoof. Also does this make hit/exp more valuable since it will be critical not to miss when refreashing beserk? If blizz makes good on there stated(long time ago) policy of making of makeing cata raiding require more hit and such as we move forward is THIS how they are doing that this tier?
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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu May 05, 2011 3:28 pm

Sylvaneart wrote:I see your points hoof. Also does this make hit/exp more valuable since it will be critical not to miss when refreashing beserk? If blizz makes good on there stated(long time ago) policy of making of makeing cata raiding require more hit and such as we move forward is THIS how they are doing that this tier?

Damn I didn't even think about hit in this case. With that in mind I am having a hard time believeing even with using the FB glyph that this bonus could work with out some big changes.

So far looking through all the available leather offset pieces both crafted and drops on MMO none of them have hit or expertise. I know its hardly the full list...however with only 7 bosses I can't see how there is going to be a lot of different choices (see previous post). We either are going to be hurting for hit, or our tier will be LOADED with it.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Leafkiller » Thu May 05, 2011 8:54 pm

Hit, exp, haste and crit will all help with the 4P bonus - anything that allows you to get more combo points up for more finishers.

On the negative side, this will delay the casting of TF if Berserk is expanded past 30 seconds - which means we could lose some of the 10% bonus time on a fight. It will encourage casting Berserk with TF - which is reasonable now since neither on on the GCD so you don't have a desired upper cap on energy for casting Berserk.

I expect some interesting results once this is modeled in Mew and we can start simulating it.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby CaptainCub » Sun May 08, 2011 5:44 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Something else just popped into my head about the 4p bonus. This will require way more information and math to verify. The thought is this: Won't this bonus's effectiveness be based completly on fight duration? A 7 minute fight would be ideal as we get to use Berserk twice with little time left after the second one. However something like a 9 minute fight may cause it be less effective as we still likely only get to use it twice and have spent most of our time out of our 3minute cooldown. If sets continue to be as badly itemized as they have been in the past based on how good your guild is doing on a said boss may actually make this bonus better or worse. Does this sound right, or am I way off base?


Just a side note but this does not change your point, you forgot the zero-minute Berserk at the start of a fight, which gives you then 3 Berserks in 7mn...

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Cuer » Tue May 10, 2011 9:29 pm

Big feral changes in the latest 4.2 patchnotes:

  • Ferocious Bite damage has been increased by 15%. In addition, its base cost has been reduced to 25 energy and it can use up to 25 energy, for up to a 100% damage increase.
  • Mangle (Cat) damage at level 80 and above has been increased to 530% weapon damage, up from 460%.
  • Omen of Clarity clearcasting buff from now lasts 15 seconds, up from 8 seconds.
  • Ravage damage at level 80 and above has been increased to 975% weapon damage, up from 850%.
  • Shred damage at level 80 and above has been increased to 520% weapon damage, up from 450%.
  • Swipe (Cat) now deals 600% weapon damage at level 80 or higher, down from 670%.

    And a glyph change:
  • Glyph of Berserk duration increase is now 10 seconds, up from 5.

It looks like a good chunk of other class changes as well... 4.2 appears to be another solid rebalancing patch.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Przypadek » Tue May 10, 2011 9:44 pm

I'm so excited! Lol actual meaningful feral dps changes.

Need to test them on PTR!

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby phalk » Tue May 10, 2011 10:23 pm

And there goes our bleeds nerfed again.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Qbear » Tue May 10, 2011 10:30 pm

So with these buffs I expect hit and exp to pass many other stats in prio unless I'm just complete thinking wrong. With the change to furious bite increase in damage by 100% if used with 35 energy it's new max is it even necessary to savage roar anymore or is it just shred rip shred bite repeat.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Chetai » Tue May 10, 2011 10:53 pm

phalk wrote:And there goes our bleeds nerfed again.


How do these changes nerf our bleeds? I see a buff to direct damage, but nothing about nerfing our bleeds at all. They should be the same in 4.2 as in 4.1.
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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby ShmooDude » Tue May 10, 2011 11:31 pm

For some simpler numbers:

FB buffed by 15%, energy decreased by 10. (161% increase in Damage per Energy)
Mangle buffed by 15%
Ravage buffed by 15%
Shred buffed by 15%
Swipe nerfed by 10%

Doing some napkin math (before people sim it, just to get a general idea).

713 DPS lost from Strength nerf in my gear. Or a ~3.5% nerf.

We're getting a 15% buff to ~1/3 of our damage (probably less on most people, but it makes it an easy number to calculate)

Makes it a 1.5% buff without considering the FB changes that might make on our >25% rotation. However, expect that to be small as you're still not going to get that many more FB's off. Looking at probably a 5% buff at the most though I could be wrong (guessing closer to 3%).


Qbear wrote:So with these buffs I expect hit and exp to pass many other stats in prio unless I'm just complete thinking wrong. With the change to furious bite increase in damage by 100% if used with 35 energy it's new max is it even necessary to savage roar anymore or is it just shred rip shred bite repeat.


I highly doubt that you could replace Savage Roar with FB. SR is like 1833 DPS by itself, can be used with any number of CPs (unlike FB). At 5 CPs its worth 1833x42= 77k. 77k/25 energy = 3080 DPE, second only to Rip (obviously DPE goes down if you use it with less CPs, but still; about half for a 1 CP). Even 4.2 buffed my FB only comes to 945.

As far as stat prio, I forget what the last change did to hit/exp (I hit cap those anyhow just cuz I'm a baddie at compensating for misses) but this new change might be enough to put haste above mastery, which'll completely fubar our gear setup...
Last edited by ShmooDude on Wed May 11, 2011 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby phalk » Tue May 10, 2011 11:39 pm

Chetai wrote:
phalk wrote:And there goes our bleeds nerfed again.


How do these changes nerf our bleeds? I see a buff to direct damage, but nothing about nerfing our bleeds at all. They should be the same in 4.2 as in 4.1.


Str will give us 1 AP per point.
We will lose a lot of AP because of it. (Buffs, HoTW)
They compensated it by buffing Shred, Mangle and FB.
Bleeds untouched = Bleeds nerfed.
We are doing ok on low movemented fights, but lagging behind on heavily movemented fights (at least I remember that being the case a while ago, since I was away from WoW). We are going to do probably worse now, even with the buffs, specially if ShmooDude math is right.

At first sight I had a big smile on my face with those changes, then I realized they werent that incredible.

Also, why do they keep giving us ways to increase Berserk's duration? Won't we be energy starved with 15 seconds or so?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby monxide » Wed May 11, 2011 12:18 am

Sigh, i guess those buffs are not enough to make our dps somehow closer to top melee dpsers like rogues or frost dks. Even though our direct attacks got buffed, our combat ratings still sucks, and i can suppose that our mastery stat priority wouldn't be that obvious next patch.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Wed May 11, 2011 12:37 am

Well, I welcome any buffs...now why couldn't they implement these earlier...

And I'm not following how they nerfed bleeds, just because it didn't get a buff? If bleeds are unchanged, they're just that, it won't change Mastery being our best secondary stat or anything I think, sure hit and exp might increase in value, but they aren't overtaking mastery anytime soon as we're still refunded energy from misses, and bleeds don't need to be special hit capped like say rogue poisons...

That being said though, it would be nice if they undid that bleed nerf they did give us in what, 4.0.1?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby phalk » Wed May 11, 2011 12:50 am

shinryu wrote:Well, I welcome any buffs...now why couldn't they implement these earlier...

And I'm not following how they nerfed bleeds, just because it didn't get a buff? If bleeds are unchanged, they're just that, it won't change Mastery being our best secondary stat or anything I think, sure hit and exp might increase in value, but they aren't overtaking mastery anytime soon as we're still refunded energy from misses, and bleeds don't need to be special hit capped like say rogue poisons...

That being said though, it would be nice if they undid that bleed nerf they did give us in what, 4.0.1?


- Bleeds are affected by Attack Power.
- On patch 4.1, Str gives us 2 Attack Power per point.
- Buffs give us Str (Battle Shout, etc)
- We have a base value of STR
- Heart of The Wild gives us a percentage on Attack Power (Which STR gives us, so More STR = More AP, and more AP beacause of this talent)
- In Patch 4.2, Str will give us only 1 Attack Power per point.
- Meaning: We are losing half the AP that STR used to give us.
- Shred, Mangle and Ferocious Bite are being compensated for this reason.
- Bleeds are affected by Attack Power and aren't being compensated.
- Bleeds are going to hit for less on 4.2 than it does on 4.1
- Less than before = Nerf

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Wed May 11, 2011 1:10 am

Hmm, I guess it is a hidden nerf then...granted, I don't do 25s and my 10man comp doesn't dish me out any Str buffs at all, so I probably won't notice, but I can imagine it sucking otherwise.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Suhmon » Wed May 11, 2011 1:41 am

Keep in mind while this is not a huge increase now, it is a scaling increase. Our AP from strength is not really going to go up. Most of it comes from buffs. Those buffs aren't going to change anytime soon. We get almost none of it from gear. That so that 700 or so attack power from strength is always gonna stay 700 attack power. But our weapon damage will continue to climb, so the buff to shred is going to keep getting better. It fixes some of our issues for the future. We could still use some more buffs though.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Darkrealm » Wed May 11, 2011 3:29 am

I will be very interested to find out how the simulations turn out for these changes, especially how it affects our rotation. It may be that our rotation has again become more complicated (which I would welcome), involving balancing Rip, SR and FB. If this is the case I might be reforging more into hit/exp as having a string of misses could screw up a tight rotation alot more than it does now.

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