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4.2 changes

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Sat May 14, 2011 10:38 pm

So I have a rather offtopic/oddball question...how is (and why) are people testing fights compared to Atramedes? I thought personally he was one of the crappiest fights for ferals? Also, how does a sim like simulate it anyways, I mean I can understand in theory how a patchwerk style fight is simmed (as you don't move at all, literal tank and spank), but Atramedes has quite a bit of movement involved and you can't even dps him like half the time.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Leafkiller » Sat May 14, 2011 11:37 pm

I wanted to know what happened when you had to stop attacking for awhile. And since there is no easy way to test adds in Mew, Atramedes was a fight I could test. I did an initial version and then Yawning added some hooks that made it easier and more accurate to test (such as the ability to disable white attacks). The problem with only testing on a Patchwork style fight is you don't know what happens when you are out of range. The hooks I use for Atramedes can also be used to emulate fights where you have smaller gaps in dps - perhaps only a few seconds. One of the interestign things that came out of the Atramedes fight is that hit and expertise tested out to be more valuable relative to other fights than they do on the Patchwork style fight. Now if only I can get Yawning to add a double damage switch and support for a short lived add...

I add this code to the top of the Mew script:

Code: Select all
   if (combatLength == -1) combatLength = status.getEncounterDuration();
   double timeInCombat = status.getElapsedTime();
   double timeToAirPhase = 0;  // for berserk later on - initial testing shows it is a dps loss to try to not clip Berserk - too time dependant.
   
   // special case the first ground/air phases
   if (timeInCombat < (initialGround + airPhase)) {
      if (timeInCombat >= initialGround) {
         if (status.isAutoAttackEnabled()) return Action.AUTOATTACK_STOP;
         return null;
      }
      timeToAirPhase = initialGround - timeInCombat;
   } else {
      double deadTime = (timeInCombat - (initialGround + airPhase)) % (groundPhase + airPhase);
      if (deadTime >= groundPhase) {
         if (status.isAutoAttackEnabled()) return Action.AUTOATTACK_STOP;
         return null;
      }
      timeToAirPhase = groundPhase - deadTime;
   }


Sorry you asked yet? (timeToAirPhase is something I used to test optimal times to hit Berserk).

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Darkrealm » Sun May 15, 2011 2:48 am

QBear, do you think it always feels your low energy because of the energy regen, or because you are not missing and therefore always using energy? I would have thought that even though you are regenerating slower, you are using more energy because you are not losing energy on your misses (20%?). Does anyone know over the course of a normal fight what the difference will be between energy lost to misses/dodges vs energy gained from the extra haste?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Qbear » Sun May 15, 2011 3:02 am

Thats a good question, one I don't really have an answer for. I've always been interested in how people like Yawning and Leaf come up with their methods of how we should do x y and z to get the best use out of this or that. However, it is very possible that energy just feels slower because I'm not having to hit the same ability numerous times.
Using 2 of my personal VnT parses 1 from hit/exp cap the other one Mastery/Crit were the Hit/exp parses were within 10 secs of a kill time from one another I obtained 7 more Shreads hit and exp capped of course using just 2 parses is way too low of a collection of data to make any kind of real claim. However, that could go further into proving that the energy regen isn't slower I'm just using my bar to its full potential.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Leafkiller » Sun May 15, 2011 4:57 am

Logically, you will get more hits in if you are hit/exp capped. On average the damage done per hit will be lower (fewer crits etc.). There is no magic to what I have found - I have just tested different rotations in Mew in a controlled way (making small changes) until I found what provided higher dps. Many of the ideas that I have tested have come from discussions on this forum.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Suhmon » Sun May 15, 2011 5:01 am

I just reforged to hit cap and near expertise cap, then ran Mew (granted it's 4.2, but won't make a big difference, just haste > mastery in 4.2) and at about 28k dps, hit/exp cap is something like 70dps lower. Just from my own mistakes and bad luck missing I lose more than 70dps focusing on crit/haste over hit/expertise. I lose more than 70dps glancing over at the tv to check the score of the Giant's game during a fight. It's just funny how close in value all the stats are now. It's really just a playstyle choice now in all honesty.

It just seems on heroic bosses, the chances for things to fall off are just really high. It's not all that uncommon to be getting ready to refresh SotP, missing your mangle, then the tank having to quickly move the boss out of a void zone, causing you to lose range for a split second, long enough for SotP to fall off. It just seems like a much higher quality of life. I won't really know for sure till Tuesday though when I can really give it a test.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Devils » Sun May 15, 2011 6:33 am

Devils wrote:Today i did some dummy test in PTR. Sometimes my talented Rake bleeds ticked only 3 or 4 times instead the 5, and my Rip 5-7 times instead the unshreded 8 tick. Can anybody confirm that?


Print-screened:

normal, 5 tick from Rake - http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/wowscrnshot051511115655.jpg/
abnormal, 4 tick from Rake - http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/wowscrnshot051511114455.jpg/
normal, 8 tick from Rip - http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/199/wowscrnshot051511115428.jpg/
abnormal, 7ick from Rip http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/wowscrnshot051511121829.jpg/

Bleed effects NOW can be resisted??? Reported ingame PTR ticket / eu PTR forum.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby monxide » Sun May 15, 2011 7:35 am

Hmm, i tryed to reforge my gear in the way Qbear did, and actually was amazed, how much more comfortable my rotation became, lol. It is not like "miss, miss, miss, dodge, miss, 4t11x3 fades away, fffffuuuu" anymore, just keepin easy flawless rotation brought my dps up by a good amount. Guess gotta stick with hit\exp cap now, lol.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Leafkiller » Sun May 15, 2011 2:01 pm

monxide wrote:Hmm, i tryed to reforge my gear in the way Qbear did, and actually was amazed, how much more comfortable my rotation became, lol. It is not like "miss, miss, miss, dodge, miss, 4t11x3 fades away, fffffuuuu" anymore, just keepin easy flawless rotation brought my dps up by a good amount. Guess gotta stick with hit\exp cap now, lol.


Who would have thought that possible?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby ShmooDude » Sun May 15, 2011 3:36 pm

Leafkiller wrote:
monxide wrote:Hmm, i tryed to reforge my gear in the way Qbear did, and actually was amazed, how much more comfortable my rotation became, lol. It is not like "miss, miss, miss, dodge, miss, 4t11x3 fades away, fffffuuuu" anymore, just keepin easy flawless rotation brought my dps up by a good amount. Guess gotta stick with hit\exp cap now, lol.


Who would have thought that possible?


Personally, I've always thought this (though not always done it). Sims will always have a lower hit/expertise value than in reality just due to the nature of human error. This mostly comes into play when you say use the wrong ability when you need to refresh something (say you shreded when you should have mangled to refresh the tier bonus).

The question becomes, how (or even should we) do we give the sim just that little bit of human touch.

I would venture to say that most of us spam our abilities. With todays complicated boss mechanics, you generally don't have the time to run a perfect rotation by just hitting your abilities on cue (or maybe just me cuz I inherited my mom's horrible reaction time). Usually, the error comes (for me anyhow) when you get an unexpected Omen of Clarity proc while waiting for energy. For example, I can't count the number of times I've accidentally double raked because I got an Omen proc at ~30ish energy, was spamming Rake and by the time I stopped spamming rake, the game had already queued up the next one (thanks lag correction! though to be fair I've done it before that, just less often ;) ).

What I've often wondered is what if the sim was changed so that its ability usage looked more like how I did things. Note I have no idea if this is feasable because I haven't really looked into how Mew does its decision making or how often. Something along the lines of:

Human error setting: (in ms)
Human error variance: (in ms)
Lag setting: (in ms)

If an Omen proc occurs within the human error setting (+ some random number lower than the variance) and you can use 2 of the previous abilities in a row.

Example:
Setting = 500 ms
Variance = 500 ms
Lag setting = 400 ms

So say there's an omen proc at 30 energy for Rake. Variance rolls a 0 (ie you spam rake for half a second past the omen proc). Since that's still outside the lag setting and on the global cooldown, normal rotation rules will continue. Now say variance rolls a 125. Now we have a total of 625 ms and are within the 400 ms lag setting window meaning that the game will queue up a second Rake to cast in 375 ms.

All of this is going to mess with bleed and buff uptimes slightly.


Another problem is our uptime is rarely 100%. Even on relatively movement light fights, uptime tends to be ~95% (example cho'gall, which can be shifted slightly if the tank gets put in a flame patch) which cuts down on white damage and can interfere with buff refreshes. On movement heavy fights (council), it can be significantly lower. This one should be simpler to fix as it looks like work on this has already started. What I would love to see is a setting added to the model parameters to automatically add dead time to sims randomly. Example:

Dead time Min: 0.5 seconds
Dead time Max: 4 seconds
Total dead time: 15 seconds (5% of a 5 minute fight)

These can happen randomly (or perhaps evenly distributed as a setting) at any point in the sim and will lead to lost white attacks and could lead to energy capping (depending on how high you set it).



I apologize if this went a little off topic, there was a lot of discussion about mew here and hit/expertise.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby felhoof » Sun May 15, 2011 3:38 pm

Who would have thought that possible?
Me :)

Though in 4.03 that wouldn't have been possible. And I suspect that with the PTR changes it might go back down a bit more since missing a bleed isn't going to be as much a penalty given the relative nerf to bleeds compared to shred.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Leafkiller » Sun May 15, 2011 5:28 pm

ShmooDude wrote:The question becomes, how (or even should we) do we give the sim just that little bit of human touch.


I have actually done some of that in my rotation, although not in the same way you describe further down in your post. It is a byproduct of having a rotation that works in both Ovale and Mew. for example, I removed early refreshes of SR from my rotation (the cost was only about 10dps). It was one of the things I would see flash by in Ovale - and if I was not fast enough I would miss the window. This happened enough that I decided it was not worth recommending it as not only did it not provide much gain, but it actually obscured a more important ability that was coming soon. The same is true of always hitting Shred on OOC procs vs. just using a normal rotation. This is at best a tiny dps gain (in my scripts it always tested as a small dps loss) and also obscured the more important rotation elements that follow.

Playability of the rotation is important - because none of us play as precisely as the simulators do.

As for your question about interrupting combat - that is entirely possible to do now in Mew. The scripts are written in Java and there are calls to calculate fight length, turn off white attacks, and return no action for yellow attacks. I use those calls to emulate Atramedes. Setting up some code with a little RNG to interrupt combat at different times for a variable amount of time is doable - along with capping the amount of interruption. I am not sure that is the approach I would take though as movement is a reflection of fight mechanics and I like the idea of emulating existing fights vs. creating an artificial fight that never actually happens.

As it happens, I was just thinking about how to create a script to emulate the third phase of Ascendant Council. The basic idea is to interrupt dps for 1-2 seconds every 10 seconds or so, and to plan for a fight that has a very short duration (the actual time intervals are something that I need to research some - they should be based on mob cast sequence/timing). That phase is interesting to me, because it underscores something we don't talk a lot about - which is not overall dps, but rather dps when it counts the most. Going back to Wrath, one of my favorite examples of that was Yogg's brain room. As a feral my overall dps was lower than many of the other melee classes (especially because in phase 3 we tanked the adds near Yogg) but I always topped the meters in damage done to the brain.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby calibro » Tue May 17, 2011 10:14 am

Please rate this post up if you are a EU player:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... 1?page=1#5
Already highly rated, thanks!

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Suhmon » Thu May 19, 2011 7:22 am

Well, the datamined info from the newest ptr patch shows FB as now having the glyph heal built into it and it also no longer consumes extra energy. It is a flat 25 energy finisher. Now, this is just what has been datamined and not official yet. Certainly seems a bit interesting. We'll have to see where things go from here.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Monopedia » Thu May 19, 2011 2:44 pm

Suhmon wrote:Well, the datamined info from the newest ptr patch shows FB as now having the glyph heal built into it and it also no longer consumes extra energy. It is a flat 25 energy finisher. Now, this is just what has been datamined and not official yet. Certainly seems a bit interesting. We'll have to see where things go from here.

I expect that this datamined tooltip is just the version of the tooltip you see while the glyph is active. Currently (on ptr) the tooltip shows as if it is the old glyph, and removes the part about the energy conversion but acts in the way the new glyph describes.

I can't see them dropping the total amount of damage Bite is capable of after trying to get us to use it again, it is quite interesting though - if it is the case then 2-3% heal max. However it might also mean that the Glyph will be changed so it provides an additional 1% per 10 energy heal which would be worse than the first change of this new glyph.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Suhmon » Thu May 19, 2011 11:44 pm

It is indeed not consuming the extra energy for me on the PTR. It is a flat 25 energy total. Completely unbuffed critting the heroic dummy for about 43k for 25 energy. Not too bad I guess.

This is without the glyph.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Fri May 20, 2011 4:09 am

Dunno if it's been mentioned yet, but:

* Ferocious Bite now heals you for 1% of your total maximum health for each 10 energy used.
* Ravage! now deals 975% damage plus 3218, up from 850% plus 2805.

So yeah, they're definitely trying to push FB to be like Recuperate I think, or whoever mentioned like Death Strike...either way I dunno why they feel we would need to have this thing for PvE since we already get healed more from healers from Nurturing Instinct (not to mention not using FB at all until the last 25% of a boss's health), so I can only assume this would make kitty a tad bit harder to kill in PvP without having to run/heal or Bear/Surv.Instincts/Frenzied Regen. But assuming this is additive with the glyph, makes it what, a total of 10% healed or whatever with 50 Energy used, or even at min without the glyph, 2.5% (assuming 25 Energy can turn into a half percent) and 5% glyphed at min; Again in PvE this is largely irrelevant since we still won't be using FB until the Blood in the Water phase unless FB gets an even bigger damage buff somewhere, and besides odds are you likely already survived most shit that's likely to kill you anyways and won't need any further healing unless there's a boss mechanic.

Ravage also gets another boost it looks like (though I dunno if this is the same as the already announced Ravage buff), making it even more worthwhile to FC/Ravage often.

That or perhaps they're rolling the FB glyph changes into FB itself now and FB glyph will do something new? Guess we'll find out later...

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Qbear » Fri May 20, 2011 5:02 am

See I'm in love with the FB glyph and people keep calling me crazy; however, for fights like heroic council or cho'gall heck even sinestra where below 25% boss health is when your taking the most damage I just can't help but love this change.

Yeah I can see how everyone could argue it as a pvp glyph which looking at it really closely I guess I can too. However, I still got that one dust in my bags just waiting for this patch, I'll make a believe out of at least one of you.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Suhmon » Fri May 20, 2011 5:29 am

Well now I logged onto the PTR and FB is once again consuming extra energy. It's just doing it delayed and doesn't always do it for some reason. It was also healing earlier and not sure if it still is. It seems to be rather bugged since different people seem to be experiencing different things. Maybe this ptr build is buggy and that's why Blizzard hasn't released the official notes yet. All I can say though is when it's consuming extra energy and you do one with 25 energy, it's pretty weak. Not really worth doing over shred.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Floofles » Fri May 20, 2011 6:22 am

It can consume at max 50 energy on the PTR now. It has quite substantially higher DPE than Shred if you look at it in a vacuum and don't take into account the value of the CPs but there is negligible gain when it is added back into the priority list over 25% to the point where it is still not advisable to use.

You can try and fiddle with it but you'll at best gain a couple of DPS and the risks are that you will miss judge it and end up with something important falling off. Forget the crappy heal component, even if you were to be taking significant damage, providing you are not using t11 4 set it is less costly and more effective to heal yourself with a healing touch. Even then though, if you are in the situation where you need to do that then you should be looking to find out what your healers are doing.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Fri May 20, 2011 11:41 am

Qbear wrote:See I'm in love with the FB glyph and people keep calling me crazy; however, for fights like heroic council or cho'gall heck even sinestra where below 25% boss health is when your taking the most damage I just can't help but love this change.

Yeah I can see how everyone could argue it as a pvp glyph which looking at it really closely I guess I can too. However, I still got that one dust in my bags just waiting for this patch, I'll make a believe out of at least one of you.

Eh I'll use it also, but only because every other major glyph besides Rebirth and Feral Charge are pretty much worthless for Feral lol, unless you do that whole hero bear thing Alaron was talking about and use Maul glyph or something.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Wicks » Fri May 20, 2011 2:12 pm

I read through this post and haven't seen comments which would answer my self-wondering questions, so here goes:

1. the 4pcs Berserk duration extension: is it limited in the same way Shred-glyph only extends Rip 3 times? As far as I noticed, the wording does not mention limitations, which does not mean there will be none.

2. is Savage Roar considered a Finishing Move in regards to extending Berserk? If it is, and if there is no limitations to the number of times Berserk can be extended, and too-often-FB would drain our energy, would using Savage Roar as extending tool make a difference in how much energy we can actually use to continue the shred spam?

[edit]
just thinking about it, it would seem that if when you start Berserk with high energy, you wanna keep it high for a while, extending it most with smallest investment (2 seconds for 12.5 SR energy), whereas as you come to low levels of energy you would want to FB, since its DpE will be (as you guys said earlier) higher than Shred + it will extend the Berserk further.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Monopedia » Fri May 20, 2011 2:58 pm

Qbear wrote:See I'm in love with the FB glyph and people keep calling me crazy; however, for fights like heroic council or cho'gall heck even sinestra where below 25% boss health is when your taking the most damage I just can't help but love this change.

Yeah I can see how everyone could argue it as a pvp glyph which looking at it really closely I guess I can too. However, I still got that one dust in my bags just waiting for this patch, I'll make a believe out of at least one of you.

You are not alone in the love for this Glyph.

With no Glyph the Tooltip for Ferocious Bite reads as 'Finishing move that causes damage per combo point and heals you for 1% of your total maximum health for each 10 energy used. Damage is increased by your attack power' it consumes up to 50 energy to convert to damage but does not heal.
With the Glyph the Tooltip reads as 'Finishing move that causes damage per combo point. Damage is increased by your attack power.' It still consumes up to 50 energy to convert to damage and does heal for every 10 energy used.

So somewhere the tooltips have been messed up. It could mean in the future FB heals 1% baseline while the Glyph then adds on another 1% per energy used - It could mean that the energy consumed part of bite is going away (though that is VERY unlikely). Gotta love the PTR, high potential to cause lots of confusion and surprises!

EDIT: I don't expect these things to happen. I believe that it is nothing more than a screw up with the baseline tooltip, the old Glyph tooltip and the new glyph tooltip.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Monopedia » Fri May 20, 2011 3:04 pm

Suhmon wrote:Well now I logged onto the PTR and FB is once again consuming extra energy. It's just doing it delayed and doesn't always do it for some reason. It was also healing earlier and not sure if it still is. It seems to be rather bugged since different people seem to be experiencing different things. Maybe this ptr build is buggy and that's why Blizzard hasn't released the official notes yet. All I can say though is when it's consuming extra energy and you do one with 25 energy, it's pretty weak. Not really worth doing over shred.

Are you doing Ferocious Bite while Clearcasting is active? I did that a few times before I noticed, once I started to use up the proc before using FB it was consuming all 50 energy.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Suhmon » Fri May 20, 2011 9:40 pm

Monopedia wrote:
Suhmon wrote:Well now I logged onto the PTR and FB is once again consuming extra energy. It's just doing it delayed and doesn't always do it for some reason. It was also healing earlier and not sure if it still is. It seems to be rather bugged since different people seem to be experiencing different things. Maybe this ptr build is buggy and that's why Blizzard hasn't released the official notes yet. All I can say though is when it's consuming extra energy and you do one with 25 energy, it's pretty weak. Not really worth doing over shred.

Are you doing Ferocious Bite while Clearcasting is active? I did that a few times before I noticed, once I started to use up the proc before using FB it was consuming all 50 energy.


I was pretty careful with my testing the first and second time. I made sure to always use up clearcasting before FB. Made sure I had no buffs other than Strength of the Panther. It's just weird. I did FB a few times with clearcasting up just to see what would happen. It was odd, it would use like 5 energy. Didn't make a whole lot of sense.

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