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Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

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Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Morghan » Fri May 20, 2011 10:08 am

For the longest time I've been topping DPS in my little band of 10-man raiders, I'm currently 3rd in gear check on wow-heroes in the guild. And lately without a warlock buddy buffing me with his magic powers of whatever that skill is I'm easily 2-3k below the locks and Hunters. I suppose this is good meaning my guil is now progressing more, burned through BWD last night and got our first few attempts at Nefarian as well, but it's finally discouraging knowing I'm doing my best and only about 3 pieces shy of BiS for 10-man normal raiding and I don't think a ring/bracers and shoulders will really have a massive impact to my DPS at all with our current scaling.


Sorry for this rantish post, but for the longest time I didn't see how poorly the scaling was because I was lucky enough to top meters without breaking a sweat.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby archury » Fri May 20, 2011 10:32 am

Care to share a log so the rest of us can see? Here's mine: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l2aq ... =412&e=905

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby shinryu » Fri May 20, 2011 11:43 am

Yeah it does suck, I mean I can still sometimes beat our mage in single target, but for anything with 2+ targets or adds, he'll usually cream me now, even with that Swipe buff. Oddly our hunters do fairly underperforming DPS I think, as it rarely beats me, usually only if it's a fight needing a lot of movement/switching.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Morghan » Fri May 20, 2011 12:57 pm

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-cn4r11j2su5godih/sum/damageDone/?s=7845&e=8173

Some of the other fights arent that great for me last night. I died on Omno 2 times due to other DPS, first time was Hunter didnt run from poison slime and it blew up on him and i got toasted , second time someone didnt stop DPS on electrons shield and i happened to be passing by him to get to next target and got smoked, lol. Bad luck on my part.

But this chimaeron fight was a fairly accurate depiction of a fight we should be fairly good on.
And I used to be 2-3k above, I guess I'll need to get used to being one of the boys now :D

I'm gonna reforge more expertise into my gear, that killed me on the red phase of Maloriak and usually does on Theralion as well. I noticed that Askmrrobot now has a second preset to look at those values which will bring my expertise to almost max, and only cost me 1% hit and a bit of crit.

Also the 4 piece bonus should I ever get it will make a bit of a boost too I guess.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Qbear » Fri May 20, 2011 1:10 pm

That's about the time it hit home for me. Since our weapon was so easy to obtain this teir (ummm 372 BiS Weap off the easist heroic since loot ship? yes plz!) I came out of the gate crushing everyone. As the raid geared up you really got to see, espcially in the caster group, how well their dps scaled with the int that was on everything. Sadly I became very middle of the packish.

Also sob story but I figured we were sharing

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby archury » Fri May 20, 2011 5:46 pm

I'm not sure if you're looking for advice or not, but here goes. I ran a compare of our recent chimaeron fights (I was crit and mastery stacked, 3t11): http://raidbots.com/comparebot/4dd6de344b1cfb8f62000d80#damage

With a quick glance I would say you need to work on your bleed uptime and also that you can shred during the stack phase. Also, dont forget to FB sub 25%. Apparently I didn't charge/ravage at all, but that should be used on cooldown and to get back into position from stacking.

Bleeds are about 50% of a ferals dps (need high uptime), charge/ravage on cd adds about 4% dps, and shred hits about 50% harder than mangle.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Leafkiller » Fri May 20, 2011 8:22 pm

archury wrote:Bleeds are about 50% of a ferals dps (need high uptime),


Closer to about 45% these days. As for Ravage!, on a normal V&T fight this week it made up 4.7% of my damage.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Morghan » Sun May 22, 2011 6:51 pm

Ok, am I understanding what you said here right? I "can" shred during stack on Feud no matter my position. If so this will help me a ton. :D

Also I spent a good 5 secs and lost bleeds I think getting in range of a Hunter I needed to BR during the fight.


Thanks for the advice, anything that is obvious is much appreciated. I'm in no means stellar or perfect in any way, lol.

:D

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Evil » Mon May 23, 2011 2:49 am

Morghan, wait when you gear up with HC Items and you'll sadly see that we scale so bad with gearing up. It's horrible to see that other classes scale in a right direction and we gear up and drop all the way down to the middle.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Floofles » Mon May 23, 2011 6:34 am

Feral druids don't have scaling issues, before 4.1 people with better AOE "scaled" more because they had... better AOE. The classes who can multidot "scale" better because they can multidot. Warriors have always scaled very well and have recently been buffed (maybe too much) and other than that it's quite fine.

Morghan the reason you're seeing poor scaling is because your uptime on bleeds and SR are very low on the fights in your log I have seen. I'm not too sure what you're using your CPs on and why your rake uptime is so low, you should consider getting an addon to track them if you aren't already and remember you can refresh SR early and rip/rake before the final tick (<2/3s respectively). There are a ton of addons for tracking buffs and debuffs, if you would like a recommendation I can give one if needed. In addition to this, on Chimaeron you are not charging off CD.

Achury, the main reason why your DPS isn't fantastic is almost entirely very very poor SR up time, the fights in your logs I had a look on you had 40-70% uptime on fights with no AOE (letting SR drop off while swiping is fine tbh). There's no reason for you really to have this uptime. It's perfectly fine to use low combo point SRs and there are certainly situations where I would say you have to.

Qbear, you're right that in the beginning ferals had the most easily obtainable weapon and this contributed to a perception that ferals were "overpowered". The "scaling issues" that people keep bringing up are usually that they simply aren't top on fights or can't get close. Look instead at your own performance and the strengths of the classes that are consistently beating you. I had a look at your logs and some of your videos and have some things I can tell you in a PM if you want.

Evil, someone has to be in the middle or at the bottom. Not everyone in life can be a winner.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Qbear » Mon May 23, 2011 9:01 am

Hey I'm always open to ways to improve my performance and would love to hear from you about them.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Lorclonil » Mon May 23, 2011 9:57 am

I like the idea of a thread for community reviews of performance. Would be great to have other peoples thoughts/opinions/suggestions.

I wouldn't mind some constructive criticism for myself.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Leafkiller » Mon May 23, 2011 1:00 pm

Lorclonil wrote:I like the idea of a thread for community reviews of performance. Would be great to have other peoples thoughts/opinions/suggestions.

I wouldn't mind some constructive criticism for myself.


We will make a sticky thread on this forum if people would like. The alternative would be a tips and tricks thread. I have chatted with Floofles about this from time to time and there are a lot of small things he does on every fight to optimize his dps that most of us never consider. Maybe we can convince him to share a little of his knowledge. ;)

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Morghan » Tue May 24, 2011 11:23 am

Just out of curiosity, what would be considered decent/expected uptimes for the main abilities we use:

I'm thnking along the lines of:
SR, Mangle (prob 100%), Rip, Rake

So I know what to look for and improve in my logs from now on.

EDIT: One more, I have a tendency to wait 2-3 secs with rip gone to apply it right after a TF for the extra dmg if the timing is off, is it worth it to do that, or a DPS loss, should I just keep it rolling steady and TF on CD no matter the part of my rotation?

Also which bosses and Chargeable from within range, It seems Chimaeron is and I know Valiona is too. Which others require no running out before charging?

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue May 24, 2011 1:11 pm

Twin Drakes
Cho'Gall
Chimaron
Nef/Ony

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Floofles » Tue May 24, 2011 1:14 pm

You might be able to charge halfus too, no idea since i've never DPS'ed there.

As for uptimes, just go and look at random high ranked logs for each fight, in this tier of content each fight is hugely variable in whether or not dot uptime will be high. Look at Twilight Council, getting stuff at the wrong time leads to downtimes.

Regarding rip, don't ever wait for rip more than ... I think it's a second?

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby archury » Tue May 24, 2011 1:21 pm

I read that blizzard changed dots in cataclysm so that if you refreshed them before the last tick, that last tick would be added to the new dot. Is this incorrect?

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Lorclonil » Tue May 24, 2011 1:24 pm

I believe that is correct.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Leafkiller » Tue May 24, 2011 2:09 pm

Short answer - don't delay Rip or Rake waiting for TF.

Longer answer - you always want to clip Rip and Rake during the last tick - you never want to wait for them to fall off.

In theory you could hold off for a second on a Rip or Rake if TF will expire during the final tick of the Rip/Rake. In pracitce the window is small, and the potential dps gain is small, and even in the sims, I don't do this and my sim produces dps numbers that are generally comparable to or slightly better then the defualt script.

So repeating what I said above - don't delay Rip* or Rake waiting for TF. However, if you are in the middle of TF and Rake has 9 seconds or left before it expires, refresh it. As Rake has a duration of 15 seconds and TF 6, this happens fairly frequently.



* Tangedyn has posted that it is also worthwhile to refresh Rip during a TF but he did not specify the conditions of his testing nor did he give a magnitude for how much this increased dps. I will not recommend this until I take some time to test it myself as I I did test it previously and did not see it. Here is a longer discussion of this: viewtopic.php?p=2489#p2489

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Floofles » Wed May 25, 2011 9:34 am

The criteria for it being better, as far as I remember, came down to a pretty specific situation which was something along the lines of, you've just TF'ed, applied rake, done some other stuff and now have 5 cp and a long time on SR, that's when you rip again.

The way it works in my head is that the DPE of the extra 15% damage on rip is ever ever so slightly higher than the DPE of doing a shred or mangle, due, in part, to it's cheap energy cost.

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Re: Poor scalingof kitties, finally hits home

Postby Morghan » Sat May 28, 2011 9:26 am

Got our first council kill this week, putting us at 9/12 in normal. Really tried to keep my numbers up on that fight, my SR was better but take and rip times sucked. Being our first kill though I'll take it.

Anxious to run BWD tomorrow and share my numbers from this week with ya for more analysis.

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