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4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

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4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun May 29, 2011 3:34 am

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2592641963

Take a look. Read my posts to at least post 7. Lemme know what yall think.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Qbear » Sun May 29, 2011 4:39 am

Extremely Nice work I was going to start working on this for a future article, I had already discussed with Leaf, though I did have an article I had to put at first. Since you've already done all the work would you be interested in working with me to put at this article sometime middle to late this up coming week. Basically the whole thing would just be written under my tag line due to me having the site admin; however, full credit for all your hard work would totally go to you. Let me know either here or in a PM if that's something you'd be interested in doing.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby shinryu » Sun May 29, 2011 5:21 am

I hate even thinking of the idea, but who else sees UW getting nerfed? I mean, there's no way the devs would want it still being the #1 option into heroic fireland modes...granted, both our best heroic trinkets drop off the last 2 bosses basically (Staghelm and Ragnaros drop Hungerer and Matrix Restabilizer respectively I think I remember seeing, which doesn't make it any easier on us for any trinket upgrades), but still, it defeats quite a lot if you can simply buy one of the best options out there even into 4.2 from a design view.

I am curious as to how Hungerer is better than Matrix Restabilizer though, as Mastery should still be better than Haste going into 4.2 right? I mean, Haste still barely gives us back much energy return, and even with the buffs to direct damage abilities like Mangle and Shred and such, it still doesn't seem like to me it'd beat out mastery/bleeds, unless Matrix Restabilizer has a bad ICD or something. Ancient Petrified Seed is mostly junk of course, but it's also a rep reward, meant for the scrubs; I wonder if it even beats out H Cyclone personally, or if Haste is really going up in value, H Prestor.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun May 29, 2011 1:19 pm

I hate even thinking of the idea, but who else sees UW getting nerfed? I mean, there's no way the devs would want it still being the #1 option into heroic fireland modes...granted, both our best heroic trinkets drop off the last 2 bosses basically (Staghelm and Ragnaros drop Hungerer and Matrix Restabilizer respectively I think I remember seeing, which doesn't make it any easier on us for any trinket upgrades), but still, it defeats quite a lot if you can simply buy one of the best options out there even into 4.2 from a design view.

I am curious as to how Hungerer is better than Matrix Restabilizer though, as Mastery should still be better than Haste going into 4.2 right? I mean, Haste still barely gives us back much energy return, and even with the buffs to direct damage abilities like Mangle and Shred and such, it still doesn't seem like to me it'd beat out mastery/bleeds, unless Matrix Restabilizer has a bad ICD or something. Ancient Petrified Seed is mostly junk of course, but it's also a rep reward, meant for the scrubs; I wonder if it even beats out H Cyclone personally, or if Haste is really going up in value, H Prestor.


Darkmoon Card: Greatness was one of our best trinkets all the way until ICC. I doubt they will nerf the trinket. If you take a look at the first two posts I show you the stat weights for all three gear setups and in all 3 of them Mastery is the lowest out of Haste Crit and Mastery. Unless Blizzard decides to buff our Bleeds/Mastery or make them scale off of weapon damage they will not scale well and as soon as we get a ilvl 378 Weapon, either from Fandral or PVP T1, all of our Direct Damage stats are going to skyrocket past them. Both Ancient Petrified Seed and Hungerer are on a 15 sec timer/ 1 min ICD, so they will have pretty beasty uptime. Ancient Petrified was looking like it was going to be pretty beast with the On-Use Agility.

Also, depending on how you reforge, there is very little chance of Matrix Proccing Mastery. Because of the fact that all 3 Gear Setups had the exact same stat weight (Weapon DPS > Agility > Strength > Haste > Attack Power > Crit > Mastery > Hit > Expertise) I never reforged out of Crit rating. In the BiS reforge I got rid of Hit/Exp/Mastery in favor of mass amounts of Crit and Haste, Crit was still highest. And when I reforged for Hit/Exp/BiS I reforged out of all the Mastery to get Hit/Exp and only touched Crit if it didn't have Haste and I wanted to leave the Hit/Exp where it was.

Basically it all boils down to: Our Direct Damage scales incredibly well with new gear: especially weapon. Getting all other upgrades increase our damage output, but since Mastery is the only thing that buffs bleeds atm, there is no way to control bleed damage and it is very easy to cap out at a low level.

Extremely Nice work I was going to start working on this for a future article, I had already discussed with Leaf, though I did have an article I had to put at first. Since you've already done all the work would you be interested in working with me to put at this article sometime middle to late this up coming week. Basically the whole thing would just be written under my tag line due to me having the site admin; however, full credit for all your hard work would totally go to you. Let me know either here or in a PM if that's something you'd be interested in doing.


Yeah, um I can shoot you over the Excel spreadsheets and the Mew profiles in an e-mail I suppose. Or we could hop on vent/mumble and talk it over. I won't be able to do anything this coming Friday/Saturday, since I have to leave town to go pick up some family for the summer and I prolly won't have a chance to do anything those days. But I still have all 3 Excel sheets and if I e-mail them to you it would be best if I was on a VOIP with you so you can ask me to translate the cells, since its can be pretty hectic to look at at first.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun May 29, 2011 3:08 pm

Also, added a test for the BiS Reforge profile on the trinkets. Results: Don't get rid of the Unheeded Warning, it is going to be the Darkmoon Card: Greatness of the Cata Era, staying as one of our top BiS for a few tiers.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby shinryu » Sun May 29, 2011 3:25 pm

You're correct about DMC Greatness which is also exactly my worry, as I remember Blizz stating in the past they don't want trinkets like that being useful for 90% of an expansion, though granted UW is only good for pretty much us and like Sub rogues, so the number of classes using it isn't high...maybe they'll just ignore us...

Also where did you get your stat weights from? Unless I was under a rock somewhere and missed that Mew was recommending both Haste and Crit over Mastery in 4.2...

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun May 29, 2011 3:56 pm

Also where did you get your stat weights from? Unless I was under a rock somewhere and missed that Mew was recommending both Haste and Crit over Mastery in 4.2...


Did you read the entire post I made? It explains how I got the stat weights.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Qbear » Sun May 29, 2011 5:12 pm

Konungr wrote:
Yeah, um I can shoot you over the Excel spreadsheets and the Mew profiles in an e-mail I suppose. Or we could hop on vent/mumble and talk it over. I won't be able to do anything this coming Friday/Saturday, since I have to leave town to go pick up some family for the summer and I prolly won't have a chance to do anything those days. But I still have all 3 Excel sheets and if I e-mail them to you it would be best if I was on a VOIP with you so you can ask me to translate the cells, since its can be pretty hectic to look at at first.


Sounds good, yeah this week might just be a bad game of tag. We'll figure it out and get it up sometime, like you said though probably best to wait till we can sit down in some sort of voip to make sure it's all presented correctly. I'll PM ya when I have a better handle on what my schedule looks like for the rest of the week.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun May 29, 2011 5:52 pm

Change:

I updated the tests on all 3 gear sets, and on all trinket tests from the most current Mew.

Interesting Things to Note:

Unheeded Warning is still Top BiS through 378 trinkets and is on par with Hungerer/Matrix for 391 bracket. Trinkets:

391 Hungerer
391 Matrix
359 Unheeded
378 Hungerer
391 Seed
378 Matrix
378 Seed

Also Interesting to note that Hit/Exp capping is a DPS increase over Haste > Crit > Mastery > Hit/Exp gearing based on which of the two trinkets you have. If you have the following Trinket combos it is better to Hit/Exp cap:

Matrix & Hungerer (391s)
UHW & Hungerer (391s)
UHW & Hungerer (378s)
Matrix & Hungerer (378s)

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby shinryu » Sun May 29, 2011 6:39 pm

Konungr wrote:
Also where did you get your stat weights from? Unless I was under a rock somewhere and missed that Mew was recommending both Haste and Crit over Mastery in 4.2...


Did you read the entire post I made? It explains how I got the stat weights.

Dumb me just finally realized 90% of those posts were yours lol...are the posting limits really that crappy on the official forums that you have to break it all up into several posts? lol.

Anyways, I still find it disheartening that mastery is taking such a dumb in value, we went from being one of the first classes to love mastery for everything to now having it be our worst stat...wonder if Blizz will bother correcting this at all, as they did when they saw ret pallys completely disregarding it as well, as it seems they really want mastery to be a good option for the bulk of specs out there.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun May 29, 2011 6:55 pm

Dumb me just finally realized 90% of those posts were yours lol...are the posting limits really that crappy on the official forums that you have to break it all up into several posts? lol.


Its a 5500 Character Limit. I split it into 2 posts so that it wasn't a giant wall of eye-glaze-over information. Gear/Enchant information is all in the first post. All the tests/numbers for Reforges/Stat Weights and Trinkets are on the second post. Updated tidbits and random conversation are throughout the rest of the thread.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Floofles » Sun May 29, 2011 10:04 pm

Mew does not do anything special with the matrix trinket if it procs mastery, this will report mastery reforges as lower DPS. I appreciate you've spent a lot of time on this project but you need to provide more details, if possible upload the mew profiles so I can have a look.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun May 29, 2011 11:05 pm

Floofles wrote:Mew does not do anything special with the matrix trinket if it procs mastery, this will report mastery reforges as lower DPS. I appreciate you've spent a lot of time on this project but you need to provide more details, if possible upload the mew profiles so I can have a look.


Lolwut? Mew, depending on how Tang/Yawning have it set up, should proc whichever is highest of the three. Regardless of that fact, why did you single out Mastery to talk about, since in none of the 3 profiles I used was Mastery ever going to be the chosen stat, since it is, currently, going to be our weakest stat in 4.2? If you take a look at the information provided it shows that in 378 gear, the only 2 stats that Mastery is better than are Hit and Expertise. This is the case with 0 reforges, reforging to Haste & Crit, and reforging for Hit/Exp cap. So no matter what you do, Mastery will never be the proc on Matrix. In ever scenario run, in 4.2 and 378 gear, our stats are going to be W DPS > Agility > Haste > Crit > Mastery > Hit/Exp, with Hit and Exp varying as to how much you have.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Qbear » Mon May 30, 2011 12:22 am

That's not true as everything was announced and the first test where done Mastery was still the strongest of the secondary stats in current gear of course no one could test how things would work out as our gear increased since none of it had been data mined yet.

It's interesting to see how the stats change of course as gear increased and would help make your findings more solid to argue with if you could open the profiles you used to the public. I know Floofles does a lot of work with Yawning due to them hanging out in the IRC chan all the time together, if you wanted to talk shop with someone to get everything more concrete you'd be hard pressed to find a better person then floof. Just got to get use to his euro-ness with their monopoly money n such.

Long story short let floofles take a look he's good for it.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Leafkiller » Mon May 30, 2011 12:24 am

Can you include the test scenario you used?

I am assuming it was a somewhere around 5-7 minute patchwork style fight and you chose GoB along with Shred, Rip and FC.

What buffs did you include/exclude?
Did you use encounter duration randomization?
Mid-encounter Ravage (if so how much travel time)?
Randomize RNG Seed?
Any of the external sources for bleed/FF/mangle equivalent debuffs?
Rebirth/Tranquility?
How many iterations did you run?

I appreciate the work you did and also how long it takes. I am interested in the parameters you tested with - and encourage everyone who posts sim results to be very specific on that front.

I would like to see more fight scenarios tested beyond patchwork style fights - like I attempted to do with the Atramedes sim script I wrote. We should probably discuss the Firelands fights some to see what we could do to better sim them. I do think you should leave the RSV data out as it is at best misleading, and likely the error margin on the stat values is pretty high unless you did very long runs to drive the error down. At the very least you should report the error that Mew supplies with the RSV data and warn people that the RSV data will not tell them what are the best stats to reforge other than a single piece of gear from whatever setup they ran the sim against (not to mention what happens when you are at the hit/exp softcaps).

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Mon May 30, 2011 12:38 am

Because the Changes in 4.2 are not set in stone and they are very likely to change, or I hope they change. I just ran with the Toskk Formulation.

5 Min fight, Shred on OoC, Model Cycle Ramp Up.

All buffs were enabled, to model a 25 man raid scenario. Rip, Shred, Berserk, Feral Charge Glyphs. Full DPS Spec with 2/3 Furor. Seafood Feast, Flask of Winds, Potion of Tol'Vir. I didn't enable Pre-pot since I am a firm believer that it is a waste, especially in my case since I don't start attacking for 10 secs into the fight. I generally Thorns the tank from Cat Form, Shift, FF(F), and once those 6 seconds are up I will charge in and start my opener. FC|C > Mangle (3x) > TF/Berserk/Potion > Rake > Rip > Ravage > SR > etc.

Tier 12 2 Piece was enabled, 4 Piece, however, was not. Mew indicated that it is not supported yet. As I put in my post on the WoW Forums, there were a total of 3 tests done with different Reforges. I chose a full 378 gear set, listed the items and enchants (BiS) used. In my spreadsheet I have a setup to input every stat, including gems and enchants, for each item and the totals for every slot are compiled so that I can easily throw those numbers straight into Mew. The Excel Spreadsheets for each of the 3 Gear-sets and their corresponding Mew Profiles will be sent to anyone who requests them, but in order to understand the Excel sheets you may need to hop on Vent/Mumble with me.

The first test, to get a general Stat Weight was done with full 378 gear with 0 Reforges.
The second test, was done with the same set of gear, reforged for BiS (Highest Stat Weights > Lowest): Haste > Crit > Mastery > Hit/Exp.
The third test, was done with the same set of gear, reforged for Exp/Hit BiS (Exp/Hit Cap > Highest Stat Weights > Lowest): Exp/Hit > Haste > Crit > Mastery.

As you can see on the WoW Forums post, all three test returned very similar stat weights and numbers, including the fact that when I tested out the 7 trinkets, certain trinket combinations listed a higher DPS for the Exp/Hit capped profile over the BiS profile. There was never a calculation done where Exp/Hit capping was over 100 dps lower than avoiding them all together.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Mon May 30, 2011 1:05 am

@ Qbear. I just went back into the profile, and piece by piece of gear, downgrade each piece of gear back to 372/359 gear. I left one piece of gear for last. After every single downgrade, the Stat weights stayed the same: W DPS > Agi > Haste > Crit > Mastery > Exp/Hit. I am now down to 1 piece of 378, 5 372s, and 11 359s. My Stat Weights are still the same as above. They have moved up or down in rating, but they are still in the same order. I am now about to go from using a 378 Weapon, back to using a 372. My guess is, that when I make the change it will push Mastery back up to being above Haste.

Erm, no that didn't do it either. I am using my AvgILvl 364 Profile and it is telling the same thing. I am going to include a screenshot of Mew. I am also running the Sample-391-PTR.mew that was in the Samples of the latest Mew version. Basically, even in 364 iLvl gear, Haste reins supreme.

T11 4PC - Raid Buffs:
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... 1306731851
Sample 391 PTR:
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... 1306731851

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Mon May 30, 2011 1:19 am

Floofles wrote:Mew does not do anything special with the matrix trinket if it procs mastery, this will report mastery reforges as lower DPS. I appreciate you've spent a lot of time on this project but you need to provide more details, if possible upload the mew profiles so I can have a look.



I think what you were trying to say just clicked. Only problem is that the gear-set I chose included Ancient Petrified Seed and Hungerer, so Matrix's proc and its effect on the Mastery Stat weight should be irrelevant. Also, as I just posted above, I just went back and tested 3 different iLvls of profiles: 364, 378, and 391 and they all came back with Haste being far superior than Mastery, so unless there is a change on the PTR to make Bleeds or Mastery scale better, I doubt many Ferals will want to stack Mastery any more.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Leafkiller » Mon May 30, 2011 1:27 am

On Toskk formulation and 4.2

Leafkiller So - has the Toskk formulation been updated for 4.2?
Leafkiller Korungr posted a gear analysis using that...
Yawning ...
Yawning why
Yawning it flat out refuses to model 4t12
Yawning this should hint at something
Leafkiller <sigh>
Leafkiller I am quoting you right now btw...
Yawning it gives zero output
Yawning all it says is "ERROR: Tier 12 4pc is not supported yet. Use the Simulator."
Yawning which means
Yawning that you should use the simulator
Yawning I should fix that eventually
Yawning every once in a while I seriously consider deprecating support for the fast model
Yawning it makes so many assumptions that are sketchy

=====================

A long time ago I did some comparisons between formulation and simulation RSV outputs. With the same gear set they were very different. Formulation is useful for a quick look at things (although from what Yawning said not in 4.2) but it is not sufficient for theorycrafting. Toskk has said the same when discussing both approaches. Simulation is much more accurate.

Your test data is currently not reliable. At the very least you should take the same profiles and run with the simulation model and see where that takes you.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Mon May 30, 2011 1:49 am

Your test data is currently not reliable. At the very least you should take the same profiles and run with the simulation model and see where that takes you.


I guess I should mention that the 391 PTR Profile that came with the Samples Folder, was automatically set to use the Simulator instead of Toskk and it gave very similar results. I am currently running the Sim at 10000 iterations with RNG Seed and High Resoltuion Timer, No Mid-Encounter Ravage. Full DPS Spec w/ 2/3 Furor. Full Raid Buffs. I am running the test for my Current 364 Profile, T12 No Reforge, T12 BiS Reforge, and T12 Exp/Hit Cap Reforge.


Also: I was under the impression that the T12 4 Piece support issue was with Mew as a whole, not the Toskk specifically. Also, didn't really know the pros and cons of using Formulation vs. Simulation.

WoW, ok. I am going to post Screenshots instead of typing it all out.

TL;DR:
364: Haste > Mastery > Hit > Crit > Exp
378 Standard: Haste > Hit > Exp > Crit > Mastery
378 BiS: Hit > Exp > Crit > Mastery > Haste
378 Exp/Hit: Haste > Crit > Hit > Exp > Mastery
391 Sample: Haste > Hit > Crit > Mastery > Exp

T11 4 PC (364): http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... 1306734467
T12 Standard: http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... 1306734469
T12 BiS: http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... 1306734467
T12 Exp/Hit: http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... 1306734468

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Mon May 30, 2011 2:02 am

It should also be interesting to note, that the Exp/Hit capped profile, with the Simulation, is reading 30783.26 DPS +/- 14.20, where the Haste/Crit Reforge profile, with the same exact settings is reading 30658.81 DPS +/- 14.42.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Leafkiller » Mon May 30, 2011 2:09 am

Next thing you can do is increase the "Relative stat value scale" which defaults to 100 stat points. Making it a little larger will take more time but at least it will apply to a larger stat range. There is the issue of error - which is pretty large on 10k runs for RSVs (the dps error is much lower).

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Mon May 30, 2011 2:13 am

Leafkiller wrote:Next thing you can do is increase the "Relative stat value scale" which defaults to 100 stat points. Making it a little larger will take more time but at least it will apply to a larger stat range. There is the issue of error - which is pretty large on 10k runs for RSVs (the dps error is much lower).


Alright. Running BiS and Exp/Hit at 100k Iterations w/ 100 Relative Stat Value.

BiS: http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... 1306737773
Exp/Hit: http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... 1306737775

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Leafkiller » Mon May 30, 2011 2:44 am

100 is default...you already did that. Try a larger number...

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Mon May 30, 2011 2:45 am

Leafkiller wrote:100 is default...you already did that. Try a larger number...


Oops. It had 0 as default.

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