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4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:16 pm

@Odas. Have you looked at the post I made on the WoW Forums. It basically is everything you did, already done for you, just with a 378 profile, since it will be more important moving into 4.2 than the 391 profile.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Odas » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:02 pm

I found I was using the non heroic gloves which accounted for the majority of the disparity. The rest is because you have the t12 legs listed as 266 hit rating instead of 226 hit rating.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Odas » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:48 pm

I had read your post on the official forums. I wanted to do a test with 391 gear with higher iterations to get enough of a confidence interval to be able to ballpark which pieces I would be picking up first.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Feral_Instincts » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:40 am

If ya'll need any help with number crunching, let me know, I'm willing to help out. :)

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Rawf » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:42 am

If haste is that good wouldn't it make sense to get Ranseur of Hatred instead of Fandral's Flamescythe? Especially since getting the 391 version of Ranseur will be a lot easier then getting the 391 Flamescythe.

But then again... fire kitty...

Also, I managed to pump out a 33k dps 4 piece t12 hit/exp capped mastery stacking (~2.8k mastery) 391 profile earlier but then didn't save it (sigh).

Also, I think I understand why Blizz nerfed strength for us.. lol
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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:51 am

Rawf wrote:If haste is that good wouldn't it make sense to get Ranseur of Hatred instead of Fandral's Flamescythe? Especially since getting the 391 version of Ranseur will be a lot easier then getting the 391 Flamescythe.

But then again... fire kitty...

Also, I managed to pump out a 33k dps 4 piece t12 hit/exp capped mastery stacking (~2.8k mastery) 391 profile earlier but then didn't save it (sigh).

Also, I think I understand why Blizz nerfed strength for us.. lol



Fandral's is roughly 30 theoretical DPS lower than Ransuer. If you choose Ransuer over a staff that was made for Ferals for 30 dps, you might just have issues. Of Course, in the transition to 391 gear and the availability of 391 Ransuer, you will be using it until you down Heroic Staghelm, but after you do, its back to Molten Fire Cat Form.

No, They nerfed Strength for us because we are the only spec/class in the game that double-dips Primary Stats from Raid Buffs, which made balancing us a slightly bigger headache.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Beanna » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:40 am

Rawf wrote:Also, I think I understand why Blizz nerfed strength for us.. lol

/agree

I really don't care about a fire cat form or a water cat form or whatever skin that they will give to us. I am not a child who is given a gadget to calm his tears.
The fact is, once again, Blizzard made an overpowered weapon which drops from the last boss, with an higher ilvl, with an incredible skin, incredibly good stats, not one but two red sockets, and as all melee already beating us in terms of DPS will get that weapon since they are always able to wear best and legendary weapons, we won't. Since Vanilla every warrior, every paladin, every DK, have always been able to wear the best weapons of each extension, from Thunderfury and Sulfuras to Azzinoth and then Shadowmourne. And what about us ? There is absolutely nothing for us. We will only be allowed to play with our little shitty stick once again.

Seriously, how can we expect any balance between melees if almost all of our competitors already have a basic advantage on loots. I'm not even speaking about furry warrior which will dual-wield that weapon. That is just unfair.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:50 am

Beanna wrote:
Rawf wrote:Also, I think I understand why Blizz nerfed strength for us.. lol

/agree

I really don't care about a fire cat form or a water cat form or whatever skin that they will give to us. I am not a child who is given a gadget to calm his tears.
The fact is, once again, Blizzard made an overpowered weapon which drops from the last boss, with an higher ilvl, with an incredible skin, incredibly good stats, not one but two red sockets, and as all melee already beating us in terms of DPS will get that weapon since they are always able to wear best and legendary weapons, we won't. Since Vanilla every warrior, every paladin, every DK, have always been able to wear the best weapons of each extension, from Thunderfury and Sulfuras to Azzinoth and then Shadowmourne. And what about us ? There is absolutely nothing for us. We will only be allowed to play with our little shitty stick once again.

Seriously, how can we expect any balance between melees if almost all of our competitors already have a basic advantage on loots. I'm not even speaking about furry warrior which will dual-wield that weapon. That is just unfair.



Other than the fact that it drops from Ragnaros, which is the End-Boss, so we get ours sooner. Ragnaros being the last boss, obviously has a higher ilvl so they get a higher stat budget on the item. Our Cloak has 2 red Sockets so that evens out, and I bet there is a piece of Agi loot off of Rag, such as our BiS Trinket, that has a higher ilvl to increase our stat budget. Quit QQing, there is no need. Feral is looking to be in an excellent place next patch, the change to Rake and Savage Roar bringing us up about 9% with the other buffs and Strength nerf all taken into account. 9% is about where we need to go to be on par with the other melee. Also, Warriors and DKs are gettin some nerfs next patch IIRC.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:14 am

To prove my point I took some Strength and Agility gear from Ragnaros. We both have Trinkets, so I ignored them. We have an Agility Neck from Rag, they have a Strength Weapon from Rag. Both are 384 instead of 378.

Our Neck piece, compared to their 378 Neck, has 13 more Agility and 25 more Secondary Stats.
Their Weapon, minus gems/socket bonus (since our cloak has 2 red sockets w/ +20 Agi Bonus and theirs does not) has 42.7 more Weapon DPS, 17 LESS Agility, and 18 more Secondary stats.

Other than more Weapon DPS, we get more stats from our gear. Your QQ is unwarranted and false. We lose 300 DPS from the lack of the Weapon DPS, but gain 150 from the Stats on our Rag Neck and stats from Fandral's.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Beanna » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:22 pm

Compare a neck and a weapon is just ridiculous. You should know that WDPS is the most important stat for us, far beyond agility. I'm just saying that if there was an agility weapon on Rag with the same iLvl and same item budget than Sulfuras, then it would be fair for every melee. The fact is that our best weapon will never be as good as the best weapon for warriors, paladins and DK, and that sounds bad to me since we have never been given any powerful, last-boss drop or super legendary weapon.
Maybe it's not a big deal but it's still an imbalance between classes that could cripple us in addition to our usual problem of positioning for Shred. I am really not confident about feral power during the next raid content since a lot of fights are very bad for us but, well, we'll see about this soon enough.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby felhoof » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:43 am

Maybe it's not a big deal but it's still an imbalance between classes that could cripple us in addition to our usual problem of positioning for Shred.
How on earth does not getting a drop from the last boss in a tier cripple a feral?

The only effect this is going to have is on the following tier. If it's very hard to get a weapon better than the 391 weapon AND it's hard for warriors to replace Sulfuras, then it might be an issue. As it stands, once you've killed Heroic Rags the first time you're already done with the content and it's just how much easier it is to farm it.

It's not a big deal. The difference here is that Sulfuras has the same ilvl as the next tier's drops; Fandral is 6 ilvls lower. That's not special in the least and won't matter at all when your theoretical guild that's 7/7 heroic rolls through next tier's normal content easily and gets tons of drops for everyone. It'll balance out quickly.

Now, where it is a big deal? if you're a big dps whore and want to not be left behind on the meters. In which case yes, warriors with sulfuras will be waxing you. So what?

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Floofles » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:14 am

I had hoped this thread would die :/

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Beanna » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:55 am

felhoof wrote:Now, where it is a big deal? if you're a big dps whore and want to not be left behind on the meters. In which case yes, warriors with sulfuras will be waxing you. So what?

It's not really a question of theorical DPS, it's mainly a matter of justice. If a weapon, which is probably the main piece for any class, drops from the last boss with a supperior ilvl than all the others weapons, then it would be more fair that all classes can benefit from this increase rather than just three classes, always the same.
It is really not important as you said, I just really do not like this idea of exclusivity and this little gift to those classes only, especially not after 6 months of hassle with my feral druid. I think I am a bit jealous and I want a gift too to compensate. :D

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:25 am

Floofles wrote:I had hoped this thread would die :/


Why?

Beanna wrote:not after 6 months of hassle with my feral druid.


You rolled the wrong class if you wanted special treatment.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:53 pm

I think this topic has gotten a little off track. Remember this is a place to come and talk to all kind of druids. Let's not let it turn into some of the 'other' forums who I will not name and fill it with complaints and demands. Please tone down the negitivity and lets get back to talking about how we can get better through our own skills.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Rawf » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:55 pm

Floofles wrote:Night elf druids have 255 base AP, 92 base strength (only 82 of this gives AP) and 93 agility.

That means that a night elf druid who is naked and unspecced will have 337 AP. When you spec them feral this is multiplied by aggression which is a 25% increase. AP display in game seems to always round up.

Eventually when you add a 20 stats enchant and 190 attack power on legs a night elf druid will have 112 strength and 684 AP.


I'm fairly sure AP in caster (for nelf, 4.1, at least)
= 294 + str(total)*2*1.25 + AP(gear)*1.25
= 294 + 162*2*1.25 + 190*1.25
= 294 + 405 + 238
= 937

and 4.2
= 294 + str(total)*1*1.25 + AP(gear)*1.25
= 294 + 112*1*1.25 + 190*1.25
= 294 + 140 + 238
= 672


Also, has anyone managed to beat 34251.15147 +/- 4.83179 with 4.2 bis setup?

This was with 100k iterations, external FFF and mangle, all buffs except Major Haste, TotT, UF, DI, Shattering, and with well fed, flasked and double potting. Others default.
Last edited by Rawf on Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Odas » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:03 pm

I got 35145.92685 +/- 4.93365 using this gear. The difference between unforged and reforged was less than 100 dps though so I am not sure if it really matters at this point. Considering the value of haste greatly decreases for anything other than patchwerk I am probably going to reforge for hit/exp cap and then to mastery. Hit rating proved to be more valuable than haste when using the atramedes script. I'd imagine that haste would be useful on aoe fights, but aside from possibly rag and rhyolith I don't think there will be much swiping for cats this tier.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Rawf » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:13 pm

I'm getting 34181 with your gear... hmmm what have I done wrong...

34195 if I change 672 AP to 684

EDIT: oops.
Last edited by Rawf on Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:37 pm

Odas wrote:I got 35145.92685 +/- 4.93365 using this gear. The difference between unforged and reforged was less than 100 dps though so I am not sure if it really matters at this point. Considering the value of haste greatly decreases for anything other than patchwerk I am probably going to reforge for hit/exp cap and then to mastery. Hit rating proved to be more valuable than haste when using the atramedes script. I'd imagine that haste would be useful on aoe fights, but aside from possibly rag and rhyolith I don't think there will be much swiping for cats this tier.


Using the Atramedes Script, I have Haste > Crit > Mastery still as highest DPS, so I do not see where your claim of Haste being devalued comes from. Naturally due to the Atramedes Script, where there is 30 secs where the only thing that is able to attack the boss is the bleeds, Mastery gets a major boost, but other than that anomaly, the set-ups remain the same. If there are no fights where there is significant away time from the boss where there is absolutely no way to attack, Haste will remain the top stat, with Mastery being dead last.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Floofles » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:44 pm

Rawf wrote:
Floofles wrote:Night elf druids have 255 base AP, 92 base strength (only 82 of this gives AP) and 93 agility.

That means that a night elf druid who is naked and unspecced will have 337 AP. When you spec them feral this is multiplied by aggression which is a 25% increase. AP display in game seems to always round up.

Eventually when you add a 20 stats enchant and 190 attack power on legs a night elf druid will have 112 strength and 684 AP.


I'm fairly sure AP in caster (for nelf, 4.1, at least)
= 294 + str(total)*2*1.25 + AP(gear)*1.25
= 294 + 162*2*1.25 + 190*1.25
= 294 + 405 + 238
= 937

and 4.2
= 294 + str(total)*1*1.25 + AP(gear)*1.25
= 294 + 112*1*1.25 + 190*1.25
= 294 + 140 + 238
= 672


Also, has anyone managed to beat 34251.15147 +/- 4.83179 with 4.2 bis setup?

This was with 100k iterations, external FFF and mangle, all buffs except Major Haste, TotT, UF, DI, Shattering, and with well fed, flasked and double potting. Others default.


This is incorrect, my numbers co-incide with the numbers you end up with on the PTR.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Odas » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:04 pm

Rawf wrote:I'm getting 34181 with your gear... hmmm what have I done wrong...

34195 if I change 672 AP to 684


I included major haste and shattering throw. When I remove those I get 34220.04025 +/- 4.82664. I also included a 5% encounter duration randomization.



Using the Atramedes Script, I have Haste > Crit > Mastery still as highest DPS, so I do not see where your claim of Haste being devalued comes from. Naturally due to the Atramedes Script, where there is 30 secs where the only thing that is able to attack the boss is the bleeds, Mastery gets a major boost, but other than that anomaly, the set-ups remain the same. If there are no fights where there is significant away time from the boss where there is absolutely no way to attack, Haste will remain the top stat, with Mastery being dead last.


Using this setup I get 29424.53292 +/- 4.69831 dps, approximately 130 dps more than the haste reforge while using the Atramedes script. On the patchwerk scrip, the hit setup is only about 100 dps lower. Considering most fights more closely approximate Atramedes instead of patchwerk, I'd prefer to use the hit setup.

Haste's value comes primarily from two sources. Auto attacks are very sensitive to movement fights. Considering that our swing timer is below 0.8s, being out of melee range for a few seconds costs us a lot of white swings. In addition, whenever there is no target to attack for long enough that our energy is capped, the value of haste on energy regeneration is diminished. Haste becomes more important on fights that involve a lot of swiping because all of the extra energy gained from haste is put into our highest dpe ability (as opposed to single target where haste does not allow us to do more rips). However, I do not see many swipe fights in firelands to be concerned about and the value of hit and expertise also drastically increases when we are swiping due to no energy refund on missed swipes.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:18 pm

Haste's value comes primarily from two sources. Auto attacks are very sensitive to movement fights. Considering that our swing timer is below 0.8s, being out of melee range for a few seconds costs us a lot of white swings. In addition, whenever there is no target to attack for long enough that our energy is capped, the value of haste on energy regeneration is diminished. Haste becomes more important on fights that involve a lot of swiping because all of the extra energy gained from haste is put into our highest dpe ability (as opposed to single target where haste does not allow us to do more rips). However, I do not see many swipe fights in firelands to be concerned about and the value of hit and expertise also drastically increases when we are swiping due to no energy refund on missed swipes.


Neither the Standard or the Atramedes script uses Swipe at all, it's strictly single-target. The Atramedes script is set-up on the basis that there is a period of time where there is no target that you can attack for a period of time. I haven't looked at the fights extensively but I highly doubt there is a fight where there isn't an attackable target available. I know a few fights have target switches, where Haste becomes an amazing asset, however.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Floofles » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:27 pm

I wrote a big reply but then accidentally closed the page.

This is broadly what it said:

Konungr, this thread infuriates me as it is firstly posted on the US forums which means that it is very hard to give any input unless you have a US account and secondly because you are presenting it entirely wrong.

Considering the history of the thread (Formulation -> Simulation -> Simulation with horrible parameters such as encounter duration randomisation set to 0) I believe you are not in a position to claim things such as "but the main consensus for 4.2 is still: Haste > Crit > Mastery or Haste > Exp/Hit > Crit" as consensus indicates that your results have been peer reviewed. There are very few people who have looked at your working and generally many flaws have been pointed out with not a single person having looked at your results and working and agreed with your findings.

You have put a certain amount of your time into this endeavour and that's admirable but you are presenting your results as irrefutable fact, which leads me to believe you don't fully understand how to use your tools.

Let us clear some things up, Mew is a simulator which models (currently) two different types of fight, Patchwork and Atramedes. Being as it is a simulator and not a human, it is not likely to make mistakes and certainly has much greater capacity for forward planning than any player you will ever meet. Considering that only one of the two fight models are actually real world scenarios, you need to look at your results and draw a sensible conclusion from them rather than running tests and presenting your results in the way you have.

If you spend too much time going down the route you've started to go down you will end up departing too much from reality and nullifying any benefit that can be gained from using a tool such as Mew. You can spend hours and hours messing around with Mew and tweaking your profiles to get a tiny bit more DPS (though this is hilariously easy with the profiles you are using since they do not have randomised duration and have such a small amount of iterations you need just press the button again to find a significant change in your results) but ultimately you have to realise that all of the work has given a result that largely is irrelevant to people reading your thread. Telling them that haste is the bestestest of all stats is misinformed and frustrating to see.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Floofles » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:28 pm

Konungr wrote:
I know a few fights have target switches, where Haste becomes an amazing asset, however.


Please substantiate this.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:36 pm

Well, I'm sorry for that. I will take down the information and wait for someone else to post their findings.

As for the comment about Haste becoming a great asset on target switches. With more haste the potential to make a target switch and get everything up faster, for a gain, rather than a loss from switching, and even the possibility to maintain full bleeds on more than 1 target.

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