Register

4.2 changes

Face-rippin fun.
Revered
Posts: 457
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:17 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:16 am

They really should tag this with "druid only" as well...the day I see a huntard walking around with it, a kitten probably died somewhere :(

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 1143
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:28 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:36 am

Just ran a 4.1 Mew sim on the sample 372 profile and then a 4.2 sim on the equivalent profile (modified for strength). This is with the top of tree version of Mew Yawning modified today to include the latest round of changes. The dps gain was just over 9% - so good napkin math for 372 gear.

Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:22 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Suhmon » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:28 am

I'll take a 9% buff with good scaling. Unfortunately we're gonna lose it from not being able to shred anything, but it's a start =P.

Honored
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Mihir » Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:57 am

Suhmon wrote:Ok, here's how it works. If the staff is equipped, anytime you enter combat, you go into firecat form and stay there until combat is over. Then you return to normal cat form.

If you have the staff equipped you can also right click it to give yourself a buff that lasts until cancelled or killed. This buff makes it so anytime you shift into cat form, you become a firecat.

There are two different effects so that you can always be a firecat in combat, or have the buff whenever you want, just on a 2 hour cooldown atm which I hope goes away.

The buff only changes cat form, it doesn't actually turn you into a firecat automatically. If you do not have a cat form, you cannot become a firecat. Therefore nobody else can get it but druids.

You don't just have to enter combat, you also have to hit something (in any form) to gain the buff. And the buff remains even if you swap to another weapon, tho it always fades on end of combat.

Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:12 pm

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Fuzzywuzy » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:15 am

That would mean changing from my current MOAR MASTERY to MOAR HASTE after hit/exp cap i guess?

If the white dmg is buffed that much it would be a major dps loss to miss.

Honored
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:21 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Yawning » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:49 am

Fuzzywuzy wrote:If the white dmg is buffed that much it would be a major dps loss to miss.


What is this I don't even. You do realize that the changes devalued hit/exp relative to alternatives right?
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:12 pm

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Fuzzywuzy » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:17 am

I don't see how it did?

Our bleeds didn't get a buff but our "normal" hitters did. Those can all miss, including white dmg.
So just guessing hit/exp will become more important then mastery as bleeds scale less then the other spells. But I can be wrong, didn't do any calcs yet just guestumating.

Honored
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:21 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Yawning » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:30 am

Fuzzywuzy wrote:I don't see how it did?

Our bleeds didn't get a buff but our "normal" hitters did. Those can all miss, including white dmg.
So just guessing hit/exp will become more important then mastery as bleeds scale less then the other spells. But I can be wrong, didn't do any calcs yet just guestumating.


They buffed Rake quite a bit..... Besides that, shifting more of the damage breakdown to white damage will favor haste/crit over hit/expertise,for any sort of currently realistic gear level, due to white attacks being one roll.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 271
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:05 pm

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Alaron » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:42 pm

Crazy patch goodness. That's it, it's official, I'm coming back, crappy laptop and all. Now to see if I can actually raid successfully from Iraq...that'll be a cool story later.

Anyway, my gut reaction says that Rake change will stay, SR change might get dialed back a bit (and/or rolled into the Glyph to make it more competitive) and Swipe reduction means we get to have the discussion again about Swipe vs. Rake for 2-3 mobs.

Also, I don't see any significant buffs to other classes so far (save UH DK's and maybe Mut rogues), so we should settle much higher in the pecking order.

(/offtopic)
EDIT: Thanks Y! link
Seeing all this patch goodness has inspired me to try to compile Mew again. Still unsuccesful, but at least I can get the project to build now; I just get a "Could not find the main class" error. I'm probably not editing the build.xml correctly to point it to the proper places. If anyone's built this successfully on a Win32 platform with Eclipse, please send me a PM.
(/ontopic)

Revered
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby ShmooDude » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:25 pm

Hrm, interesting thought crossed my mind. With Rake's initial hit now hitting just as hard as the ticks, how much armor would something need before Rake overtakes Mangle (or even maybe Shred)? Obviously this is going to be HIGHLY dependent on gear, so I'll give some number assumptions:

14k Attack Power (I got 12.7k in my PvP gear but its mostly blues and Resil gemmed :P, 16.3k in my raiding gear so 14k's a good median)
703.5 DPS weapon (372 iLvL)
+50% Bleed damage from mastery (~16 Mastery)

Mangle = 540% + 302 (Possible +10% from glyph)
Shred = 540% + 302 (+30% From Mangle, +20% From RnT)
Rake = 14.7% AP + 56 (+30% From Mangle, +50% from Mastery)

703.5 + 14000/14 = 1703.5 Average weapon damage

Mangle = 9500.9 at 0% armor (10450.99 w/ glyph)
Shred = 14821.404 at 0% armor
Rake = 4122.3

That makes Rake = to unglyphed Mangle at 56.6% Damage Reduction from armor and Rake = to Shred at 68.2% Damage Reduction from armor (that includes the energy difference as well). Probably not gonna replace our main attacks on anyone except possibly a prot spec that you can't get behind.

Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:11 pm

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Ruan » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:31 pm

It is no longer possible in some encounters to use Feral Charge when closer than its minimum range.


This really strokes me the wrong way, we got to use this on V&T, Cho'Gall, Chimaeron, Nefarion and Argaloth; it seemed like fair compensation for the encounters we could not use Feral Charge on at all, Magmaw, Sinestra and Al'Akir.

Revered
Posts: 457
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:17 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:46 pm

After playing around with Sub rogue in pvp, I think they really should consider making FC function more like Shadow Step; I mean as a rogue, you can literally shadow step from anywhere to anywhere, regardless of path. Whereas with FC, there's so many retarded things you can't leap at, such as flying mobs, the mentioned bosses (though no rogue will admittedly shadow step on Magmaw unless it's his head, but they do use it to get behind al'akir), etc etc. Or maybe even switch it to be like heroic leap, where we get to target where we want to jump to? Regardless, it's sickening how limited FC is compared to some similar abilities.

User avatar
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:47 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Antioch » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:19 pm

shinryu wrote:After playing around with Sub rogue in pvp, I think they really should consider making FC function more like Shadow Step; I mean as a rogue, you can literally shadow step from anywhere to anywhere, regardless of path. Whereas with FC, there's so many retarded things you can't leap at, such as flying mobs, the mentioned bosses (though no rogue will admittedly shadow step on Magmaw unless it's his head, but they do use it to get behind al'akir), etc etc. Or maybe even switch it to be like heroic leap, where we get to target where we want to jump to? Regardless, it's sickening how limited FC is compared to some similar abilities.


Worth noting that it is only Sub rogues that have this ability and sub in pve is a disaster of a spec. It is all but unuseable.
Our FC still remains the best ability to get behind mobs in pve of any class. Admitedly it is still buggy, especially if you move turn with your mouse as i do, you end up not facing directly behind the boss unless you let go of the right click, unlike Shadowstep which always puts you facing the right direction.
Image

Revered
Posts: 457
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:17 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:13 pm

Antioch wrote:
shinryu wrote:After playing around with Sub rogue in pvp, I think they really should consider making FC function more like Shadow Step; I mean as a rogue, you can literally shadow step from anywhere to anywhere, regardless of path. Whereas with FC, there's so many retarded things you can't leap at, such as flying mobs, the mentioned bosses (though no rogue will admittedly shadow step on Magmaw unless it's his head, but they do use it to get behind al'akir), etc etc. Or maybe even switch it to be like heroic leap, where we get to target where we want to jump to? Regardless, it's sickening how limited FC is compared to some similar abilities.


Worth noting that it is only Sub rogues that have this ability and sub in pve is a disaster of a spec. It is all but unuseable.
Our FC still remains the best ability to get behind mobs in pve of any class. Admitedly it is still buggy, especially if you move turn with your mouse as i do, you end up not facing directly behind the boss unless you let go of the right click, unlike Shadowstep which always puts you facing the right direction.

Depends on who you ask, though I'll agree using Sub in pve certainly isn't easy; much harder to do right than feral nowdays at any rate.

And while it may be the "best" and getting behind mobs, it lacks any other utility imo, whereas with the other 2 I mentioned, Shadowstep will always throw you behind something and Heroic Leap can be coordinated so you end up where you want to end up. I just think it's something blizz should look at, or at the least fix the issue so you can FC flying mobs and the like.

Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 3:13 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Searinox » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:08 am

There's been quite some talk about FB's buff and wether or not it's worth using it at over a quarter health on a boss fight. The consensus, pardon me if I'm mistaking, was no since while it is a marginal DPS increase, the risk of not having enough CPs to reapply Rip when it drops far outweighs it.

This risk stems from the fact that ferals simply do not have enough energy to make back CPs in useful time. During a battle however, this risk fluctuates. Moments such as Berserk or 5cp @ Rip > 15 seconds or Rip > 10 seconds with TF ready are at far less risk.

And with the extra 5 seconds of Berserk aswell as FB's energy cost reduction turning it into essentially a 2x Shred with the same energy cost(and CP dump), this appears to be more encouraged. At my current gear level I can get an extra 18k damage through with 1 FB during such an opportunity. Now let's assume that I can get 2 FBs through every 3 minute cycle. that's 2x18k/60x2=200 extra dps. The best part about it is that this 200 scales with gear. Don't you think it's worth it?

Here is the data for applying this philosophy on live servers and then on the PTR. On the live servers there's pretty much no difference because of the decreased duration of GoB and the bigger energy dump of FB causing me to do some slip-ups. But these happen less on the PTR, even despite the fact that it has 400ms lag simply because I have more rich resources. What's more with the 10% haste buff and Heroism. (armory link again for referrence)

Pardon if the numbers on FB on the PTR are not too surprising. I'm sure I could do it better justice without all that crap latency.

EDIT:

LIVE SERVERS: By including 2x FB in every Berserk phase I was able to increase my DPS higher than ever before. This is a net 200 increase to my overall dps exactly as I had predicted. Furthermore, while Mew(r581) only does a 660 second run maximum, DPS should start out at higher values(mine was around 18k and stayed at 16k for about 6 minutes) then drop to lower as combat length normalizes it. By using the new rotation, I was for the first time able to beat the simulator, which predicts 15630.4 DPS for 11 minutes while 22 minutes in I was still holding strong at 15.7k. All of this was on the live servers and I do seriously wonder if the PTR had less latency, just how high it could go. Keeping Rip up was not as tricky as I thought it'd be though admittingly I did run into a few minor troubles, all of which I'm sure the extra 5 seconds Berserk will fix in 4.2.

Honored
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:21 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Yawning » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:27 pm

Searinox wrote:LIVE SERVERS: By including 2x FB in every Berserk phase I was able to increase my DPS higher than ever before. This is a net 200 increase to my overall dps exactly as I had predicted. Furthermore, while Mew(r581) only does a 660 second run maximum, DPS should start out at higher values(mine was around 18k and stayed at 16k for about 6 minutes) then drop to lower as combat length normalizes it. By using the new rotation, I was for the first time able to beat the simulator, which predicts 15630.4 DPS for 11 minutes while 22 minutes in I was still holding strong at 15.7k. All of this was on the live servers and I do seriously wonder if the PTR had less latency, just how high it could go. Keeping Rip up was not as tricky as I thought it'd be though admittingly I did run into a few minor troubles, all of which I'm sure the extra 5 seconds Berserk will fix in 4.2.


You have a single data point. You have a single data point that falls within 1 sigma. Said value of sigma is from something that plays far more consistently than any human will ever hope of achieving (If a real person was bashing at the dummy for over a month gathering numbers, which is what Mew does by default, sigma would be higher). Your conclusion has zero statistical significance.

Using Bite in general without 4T12 is a dps gain in 4.2, so right now I have Mew doing so, but at most it's ~20 DPS (Using it under Berserk with 4T12 is a rather large gain for reasons that should be painfully obvious, though it's almost entirely "You're using 4T12").
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 3:13 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Searinox » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:44 pm

Yawning wrote:
Searinox wrote:You have a single data point. You have a single data point that falls within 1 sigma. Said value of sigma is from something that plays far more consistently than any human will ever hope of achieving (If a real person was bashing at the dummy for over a month gathering numbers, which is what Mew does by default, sigma would be higher). Your conclusion has zero statistical significance.

Using Bite in general without 4T12 is a dps gain in 4.2, so right now I have Mew doing so, but at most it's ~20 DPS (Using it under Berserk with 4T12 is a rather large gain for reasons that should be painfully obvious, though it's almost entirely "You're using 4T12").

How can I lower that value to make it reflect my real situation better? I would assume the iterations refers to how many times the sim repeats the test? Should I reduce that to one? Second by unchecking the 4T12 buff the sim now drops me to only 15535.5. My assumption about beating the sim was that it simply wasn't programmed to use 2xFB on Berserk in which case it would again triumph.

Please elaborate as I believe understanding my relationship with Mew to be of great importance.

Honored
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:21 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Yawning » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:16 pm

Searinox wrote:How can I lower that value to make it reflect my real situation better? I would assume the iterations refers to how many times the sim repeats the test? Should I reduce that to one? Second by unchecking the 4T12 buff the sim now drops me to only 15535.5. My assumption about beating the sim was that it simply wasn't programmed to use 2xFB on Berserk in which case it would again triumph.

Please elaborate as I believe understanding my relationship with Mew to be of great importance.


My point was that you can't use dummys for a lot of things mostly because you're human, and there's RNG factors.

If you built a robot, taught it how to play a feral druid, gave it 359 gear, and said, ok, go to the target dummy in Silvermoon on the PTR (since no one ever goes there), and beat on the dummy for 10 mins at a time for a month and record the results, you would see that the results fall into a bell curve centered around 16.6k. 68.2% of the results will fall into 16.6k +- 291 DPS, though it will report results as low as 15.9k and as high as 18.1k.

What you did was essentially tell the robot "ok, go DPS the dummy once, and come back to me with the results", and predictably enough, you saw something that was within +- 291 DPS of what was expected, ignoring the rotation change. This isn't particularly meaningful in any way.

If you then told the robot "ok, use Bite during Berserk, see you in a month", it will come back to you with numbers that look a lot like what it did after the first month of testing, except the average may be slightly higher. You can then do a bunch of math (Student's two-sample t-test) to answer "Are the averages I got equal?" and based on that say "Was this a net gain? On average how much?"

Since building a robot that can play WoW is reasonably difficult (and personally, if I were to build a robot, it would be gigantic, bristling with lasers, and for world domination) and waiting around for the robot to finish beating on the dummy in Silvermoon sucks, instead people write simulators and elaborate spreadsheets that run significantly faster (though, they aren't nearly as cool as something with pew pew laser beams).

Since the time 4T12 was data mined Mew has attempted to use the set bonus. The current released version of the script is not as aggressive about it as the one in SVN is, but it certainly will use Ferocious Bite opportunistically during Berserk.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 271
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:05 pm

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Alaron » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:23 pm

Yawning wrote:Using Bite in general without 4T12 is a dps gain in 4.2, so right now I have Mew doing so, but at most it's ~20 DPS (Using it under Berserk with 4T12 is a rather large gain for reasons that should be painfully obvious, though it's almost entirely "You're using 4T12").


As an aside, I mentioned this in my column for WoWInsider, (which should be going up soon) asking for just a LITTLE more oomph to FB to clearly push it past Shred and into the risk/reward gameplay that was so enjoyable in LK.

Searinox,

EDIT: Yawning beat me to it.

Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:55 am
Location: Hungary

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Devils » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:31 pm

feral druid undocumented changes 4.2:

"Prowl now once again begins its cooldown once the druid leaves Prowl. (Note: for rogues' Stealth, this is indeed in the patchnotes, but not for Prowl)"

source: wowpedia

Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 3:13 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Searinox » Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:12 am

Sorry I made a HUGE HUGE mistake in my previous statemnt. You said "I'm using 4T12". I almost immediately thought you said T11 for some messed up reason. I am NOT using 4T12. The 200 dps increase was noticed on the LIVE servers. The dps results were then compared with the 4.1 Mew. I've been able to reproduce the results one more time but didn't screenshot it since it wasn't as long a run("only" 14 minutes).

Let's leave Mew aside for a moment. Bottom line is I noted a 200 increase in dps which is not only a subjective claim, but even on paper if you replace 2 shreds with 2 FBs every 3 minutes, that's what you'll get. Can that be wrong in any way?

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 553
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Konungr » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:27 am

Searinox wrote:Sorry I made a HUGE HUGE mistake in my previous statemnt. You said "I'm using 4T12". I almost immediately thought you said T11 for some messed up reason. I am NOT using 4T12. The 200 dps increase was noticed on the LIVE servers. The dps results were then compared with the 4.1 Mew. I've been able to reproduce the results one more time but didn't screenshot it since it wasn't as long a run("only" 14 minutes).

Let's leave Mew aside for a moment. Bottom line is I noted a 200 increase in dps which is not only a subjective claim, but even on paper if you replace 2 shreds with 2 FBs every 3 minutes, that's what you'll get. Can that be wrong in any way?



You are using the glyph of FB aren't you?

Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:16 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby CaptainCub » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:41 am

Searinox wrote:Let's leave Mew aside for a moment. Bottom line is I noted a 200 increase in dps which is not only a subjective claim, but even on paper if you replace 2 shreds with 2 FBs every 3 minutes, that's what you'll get. Can that be wrong in any way?

Opportunistically FB'ing above 25% HP also rules out the possibility of TF-clipping Rip*. Now which strategy yields higher DPS, I don't know.


(* I don't mean refreshing)

Exalted
User avatar
Posts: 553
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 3:43 pm

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Konungr » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:51 am

CaptainCub wrote:
Searinox wrote:Let's leave Mew aside for a moment. Bottom line is I noted a 200 increase in dps which is not only a subjective claim, but even on paper if you replace 2 shreds with 2 FBs every 3 minutes, that's what you'll get. Can that be wrong in any way?

Opportunistically FB'ing above 25% HP also rules out the possibility of TF-clipping Rip*. Now which strategy yields higher DPS, I don't know.


(* I don't mean refreshing)



How did you come to this conclusion and what exactly do you mean by it ruling out the possibility of TF-Clipping Rip.

Posts: 14
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 3:13 am

Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Searinox » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:44 pm

I'm not using GoFB. My setup can be ckecked in the link in my post.

PreviousNext

Return to Kitty DPS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Feedfetcher and 3 guests