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Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Virilana » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:20 am

So tonight my guild finally downed Nef on normal... we are pretty far behind be we have have been slaving over it for a while so it felt good anyways! So here is the link to WoL for the final attempt: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yp76 ... 687&e=8189

I was just wondering if anyone has any feedback on how I was doing, I know my uptime was pretty low on dots as well as buffs. Usually I'm holding above 80 to 90 on other fights (I've been working on it), but its super low for this. I'm not really sure where exactly it should be considering the time spent standing twiddling my thumbs on the pillars after killing the add (we decided to just kill them as quickly as possible rather than do a crackle in phase 2 for our healers), since that all counts as downtime. So any feedback would be appreciated!

Also I did have a question... I was looking at WoL and noticed there is DPS and DPS(e). I know the latter is used for rankings, and I was wondering what is the difference? While I was above 20k for DPS, I was hovering in the 16k range for DPS(e). Thats a pretty big difference so I was curious about how that all works. Thanks guys!

Edit: Also I got the trinket off Nef, just took it to experiment as we didn't need the shards and nobody else wanted it. Right now I have unheeded warning and fluid death... does the normal nef trinket have any value really atm? Or perhaps when the patch till the new trinks seeing as Haste from what I've read is going to be so valuable?
Last edited by Virilana on Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Konungr » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:34 am

Virilana wrote: I was looking at WoL and noticed there is DPS and DPS(e).


DPS is Damage Done/Total Time, DPS(e) is Damage Done/Active Time.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Virilana » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:57 am

So active time would be say, when I'm actually doing damage correct? Meaning say I'm not attacking, waiting for tank or adds to die, that doesn't count as active time?
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Konungr » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:12 am

Virilana wrote:So active time would be say, when I'm actually doing damage correct? Meaning say I'm not attacking, waiting for tank or adds to die, that doesn't count as active time?


Correct, or dead.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Virilana » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:50 am

Alright thank you for clearing that up for me... I understand the ranking system a lot better now.
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby m4rtini » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:27 am

m4rtini wrote:Hello

Here is my two latest logs.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y8pn587kyxz4n3t1/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/lx57fqxju80dhiz4/

My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/n ... i/advanced

For the last one i switched out some gear and reforged for some hit and expertise to test it out. And from the looks of it, it gave me a decent dps boost.

Ranked on Halfus, and close to ranking on V&T and Chogall. Never seem to get any decent damage done on council tho. Any tips on what i can do to get some more damage out?

Edit: Today's raid log http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m4xuwq771wgmikv6/



Did you guys miss my post? :/

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:21 pm

m4rtini wrote:
m4rtini wrote:Hello

Here is my two latest logs.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y8pn587kyxz4n3t1/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/lx57fqxju80dhiz4/

My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/n ... i/advanced

For the last one i switched out some gear and reforged for some hit and expertise to test it out. And from the looks of it, it gave me a decent dps boost.

Ranked on Halfus, and close to ranking on V&T and Chogall. Never seem to get any decent damage done on council tho. Any tips on what i can do to get some more damage out?

Edit: Today's raid log http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m4xuwq771wgmikv6/



Did you guys miss my post? :/

Wow Martini, I did and I am really sorry. Let me have quick look and I will get something posted soon (and not blizzard soon, the real soon).

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:34 pm

Hey Martini. Late welcome to the community.

I am sorry your post got lost in the mess, totally my bad. Ok here we go.

For V&T you had very nice bleed uptime. There was only one section that you didn't seem to be able to overlap your Rake between the dragons switch. You should also focus on trying to use FC on cooldown. It ends up lining up very nicely with TF. If you FC you have 10 seconds to use the ravage so very possible to TF every single one of those. Only other suggestion is to double pot (may not be possible due to aggro issues).

AC is a mean fight for melee, and kinda worse for ferals. If all you want to do is improve your dps, try keeping rake up on the target you arn't full time on during P3. If you arn't going to lose any uptime on your main target also getting a Rip up on the second target would also help. The real issue here though is that this is a control fight, so doing max dps may not always help your raid get the kill. One tip for P1 is that FC lines up very well with Ignatious dash. If you are on him when he does the dash run away a little bit and FC on him when he runs back (Thanks Qbear for this trick). Make sure you wait till he has stopped moving or server lag will land you half way through his fire trail. Also on P3 it's not about dps but staying alive. If you have to step back to not stand in a puddle for a few seconds, do it.

I looked at your BWD fights for this week as well.

Great job on Omitron. Bleed up time was very nice save for one section you didn't have a lighting rod were they fell off. Again double poting will help you here if you tanks can handle it.

Magmaw I don't have any heroic experience on 10 so I don't know what your job is.

I would suggest that you pick up 4p T11 asap. Sure the stats don't compare well with the off set pieces you have but the 3% ap will more then make up for their loss.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:01 pm

Jabarlek wrote:Well, finally got logs up and running, so I figured I'd go ahead a post our(somewhat embarrassing first few) attempts at heroic Atramedes and the rest of the stuff for that night and the next. http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/139969/.

Ignore Maloriak and Chimaeron because I was tanking for both of them
The majority of the time.

Anyhow, any advise will be greatly appreciated:)



P.S. Won heroic sark on the Atramedes kill, so I was a happy kitty.

Hey Jabarlek.

Your Atramedes fight looks pretty good. You keep your bleeds up well, and you are not getting hit by to much sound. The only area I see for improvement would be to be careful when you have to switch to the Obnoxious Fiends. A few times when you switched Rip ended up falling off of Atramedes. If you must switch to them try and make sure Rip isn't going to fall off, either refresh it when the Fiend timer is almost up, or make sure its extended.

Gear looks fine, but I would recomend trying to get 4p T11 if you can.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby m4rtini » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:11 pm

Thanks.

I tried doublepoting on one of those V&T logs for the first time. I pulled aggro after 10-15seconds and died. So i don't think it's worth the risk. May have to work in cower in my rotation for the start then.

I'll try to work on using FC on cooldown. Didn't know you had as much as 10 seconds to use the ravage, so that's gonna be a big help to get TF boosted ravages off :)

For magmaw 10H, my job is basically to dps down the adds whenever the head isn't exposed. And to chain down the head.
I actually ranked 195 or something when the log was posted. without any heroic gear, so i was a bit shocked :p But for some reason the dps to rank is lower on heroic than on normal for that fight.

Getting the 4p bonus have been a goal for a long time now, but have only seen the token drop once. And then i lost the roll. And now that we're trying to progress on heroics, we rarely get time to go for cho'gall or nef.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Jabarlek » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:15 pm

Tinderhoof, as sad as this sounds, I didn't even realize DBM gave a timer for when theyre vulnerable for attack(fail on my end for not noticing or turning it on). Next time through, I'll pay more attention to it. As I post this I'm in que saving up for the tier gloves. Cho'Gall doesn't like Druids in ten mans for some strange ass reason lol, and the tier head auto goes to the resto druid since he still has a blue.

And I was going through my log and noticed my horrible uptime on savage roar on omnatron. I was happy with my bleed uptime, but do you happen to have any particular trick to keeping savage roar up way more? Or is just a matter of paying more attention to it?(I need to find a new place to put that timer anyways now that I think about it, I have to look way to far out of my way).

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:18 pm

The big thing to remember about SR on omnomnom is it only take 1 CP to put it up. Also if you miss the window for a dot refresh before you have to switch to a new target use those CPs on SR before engaging next boss.
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Jabarlek » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:22 pm

Sylv, thank you for that. I have no idea why I don't think of it that way on that fight. We're going in tonight, and I'll be running logs so I'll check afterwards to see if I do better on it.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:27 pm

Virilana wrote:So tonight my guild finally downed Nef on normal... we are pretty far behind be we have have been slaving over it for a while so it felt good anyways! So here is the link to WoL for the final attempt: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/yp76 ... 687&e=8189

I was just wondering if anyone has any feedback on how I was doing, I know my uptime was pretty low on dots as well as buffs. Usually I'm holding above 80 to 90 on other fights (I've been working on it), but its super low for this. I'm not really sure where exactly it should be considering the time spent standing twiddling my thumbs on the pillars after killing the add (we decided to just kill them as quickly as possible rather than do a crackle in phase 2 for our healers), since that all counts as downtime. So any feedback would be appreciated!

Also I did have a question... I was looking at WoL and noticed there is DPS and DPS(e). I know the latter is used for rankings, and I was wondering what is the difference? While I was above 20k for DPS, I was hovering in the 16k range for DPS(e). Thats a pretty big difference so I was curious about how that all works. Thanks guys!

Edit: Also I got the trinket off Nef, just took it to experiment as we didn't need the shards and nobody else wanted it. Right now I have unheeded warning and fluid death... does the normal nef trinket have any value really atm? Or perhaps when the patch till the new trinks seeing as Haste from what I've read is going to be so valuable?

Hey Virilana.

So just want you to know you did a great job for that being the first kill. While your Rip/Rake times look low overall the up time for when you could actually reach the boss was really good (even while you were having to pool energy to interrupt). A few suggestions I can make would be:
1. You look a bit to get FF up on the Prototype. I know it's really crazy trying to get up on the pillar then having to get bleeds + interrupt. Not a huge deal, but next time try throwing it up there just before you get onto the pillar.
2. When you use you pot for Berserk, you should use it before you berserk. You have 25 seconds of pot time but only 15 seconds of Berserk (You wern't glyphed). To make full use of Berserk you don't want to have your first GCD take up by taking the pot.

Honestly these are small things that come with pratice and comfort level with the encounter. You are doing just fine.

Trinket wise, the problem with proc's is that they can be either really awesome, or totally wasted. Because you are dealing with the normal versions I think UW is going to come out on top for you. However it really can't hurt to play around with both. Find what seems to help your rotation the best and go with that one.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Virilana » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:46 pm

Alright thank you, I'll have to go mess around with it on the dummies, Mew and such.

FF is something I always forget to get up on the add, I'll have to make a mental note on it... A big problem I have with that part is getting up on the pillar. If I try to get up in cat form I go right over it, once I can finally get out of the lava haha. I've been trying jumping out unshapeshifted, which makes it a lot easier. The only problem is that first interrupt, the paladin tank on the platform with me usually grabs the first one, but really its just whichever of us can get up there first, and I've been struggling with getting up there, shapeshifting again, targeting the add instead of the hunters pet >.< and then getting it off.

I've been able to do three berserk's, once as soon as I get to Onyxia (I've been designated to stay on her and kill her while the rest of the raid brings Nef down), it then comes off CD right as I get up on the pillar and I use it there to get the add down, and its available again with plenty of time to use it before he dies. I actually just switched out the Berserk glyph for Tigers Fury on this fight to have TF and Leap line up together since I can ravage at min range on Onyxia the add and Nef. I'll put Berserk back in for that fight, it was really only last night that I even started experimenting with three Berserk's, before I was leaving it off CD on the platform and using it as soon as we jumped off and went for Nef.

Potting before Berserk... dumb me lol I forgot in the excitment xD I'll slow down and remember that. One thing I was wondering... I have not been double potting on this since I have to take it right before I enter combat, by the time I can attack the boss (after I'm down and the boss is in position) I only have about 6 seconds left on it if that. Is that short of time going to have any real benefit?

Thank you for your advice, its good to know I'm doing decently for a first kill anyhow, now off to Ala'kir!
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:39 pm

[quote="Virilana"]Potting before Berserk... dumb me lol I forgot in the excitment xD I'll slow down and remember that. One thing I was wondering... I have not been double potting on this since I have to take it right before I enter combat, by the time I can attack the boss (after I'm down and the boss is in position) I only have about 6 seconds left on it if that. Is that short of time going to have any real benefit?quote]

Is it a benefit? Yes. But why so long to engage? I am assuming your grp make up has to deal with this. I am making assumptions here since i have not looked at your logs but.....The tank should go 1st. Pot as he is falling, and go right in behind him and FFF while you fall. That early FFF keeps you from wasting a GCD. I jump from the pillar to ony becouse i can FC while in the air. Hopefully you have a hunter or rog to tricks MD ony on to him as he gets her positioned. The added agi from the pot should make your 1st 3 attacks crit at least 2 and thus you have 5 combo and can do your finishing move. And still have time for your potted ravage and some shreds. So all in all from the time you pot until you make your 1st damage dealing move should only be 3 seconds. Now if your tank has bad snap aggro or not outside threat help don't waste the pot.
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Sylvaneart » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:41 pm

Also remember FFF will help a tanks threat. using it in cat form dosn't have the threat or damage on it but the boss will still have the debuff for the tank to take advantage of.
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Virilana » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:58 pm

It just takes our Ony tank that long to move her into position, he goes in first and I put thorns on him while he's going down, then I go after, drift past her so I don't get the tail lash, I've been putting FFF up as soon as I hit the ground. Right now we aren't supposed to attack till he gets her to the side of the room and turns her... We were having some problems with threat from me, the dk and the hunter so we've been holding off. Initial threat has been a bit of an issue in our team >.> Even with hunter MD. He does wonderful for threat (usually) throughout the rest of any fight, but the beginning it takes him a second to build it up. I've never tanked on any class but druid, so I don't know which class is particularly better at initial aggro, but he's a pally if that makes any difference.
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Rawf » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:45 pm

Pally initial threat is one of the best out of all the tanks, he's probably doing something wrong.
Get him to divine plea and avenging wrath as he's pulling, then the priority is : ShotR > cru strike > avengers shield (with proc) > judgement > AS (no proc) > holy wrath > consecration.

Back on topic. Has anyone else found that their overlap times for SR is ridiculously high? The amount of times I pop a 5 CP SR with my current SR having more then 10 seconds left is silly (mainly because SR and Rip will drop in the same ~2 seconds). Suggestions?


P.S. Konungr, you got DPS and DPS(e) mixed up. DPS is damage done while active, DPS(e) (or effective DPS) is damage done over the entire fight. That's why DPS(e) is always lower then DPS and why DPS(e) is what's used for rankings.
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby adianar » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:51 pm

I just want to say that all of you taking the time to go through these logs for others is exceptional. In reality, other than the dummy for raw rotation, this is the single best way for all of us to get better. I read all of them and I'm starting to learn how to analyze my logs a bit more.

A big thank you is in order for all of you. One other thing, for those of you have had the benefit, consider it paying forward. Do something else that is helpful in return for the time spent. It keeps the whole enterprise rewarding for all.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:43 pm

Thanks Adianar.

This thread and other works here at fluiddruid.net are kind of my pay it forward. If it wasn't for Felhoof and Karthis I wouldn't be in the spot I am in today. I have also found the old saying "The best way to learn is to teach" is so true. Looking at logs for ways other people can improve forces me to look at my logs in the same way. Plus it's kinda fun.
Keep on Shredding.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby mekell » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:06 am

Hey guys, been reading and posting here for a good while now but just not had the opportunity to get into this thread. Been feral since late vanilla and pretty much pure dps since sometime in TBC), my offspecs float between tank and healer based on whats needed at the time (I got burnt out on tanking about half way through tbc). Kitty all the way since then. My guild is a normal progression guild (meaning, we may try hard modes, but we dont consider them part of our progression). We are a casual group, raid 2x a week. I am typically our top dps (depending on the fight). I know there are a ton of things i need to work on, but i am generally one of the ones assigned to interrupts and other non-optimal duties even though its not ideal, just because i am a pretty raid-aware player and tend not to screw those things up.

Here is my armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/e ... ell/simple

We just recently downed nefarian (our last boss of this tier) thanks to some advice from our fellow readers here on TFD :).

We started to try heroic halfus last night, but one of our main helears had a family emergency and had to go, so we picked up one of our other members that comes with us from time to time and did some clearing of "older" content by clearing some bwd bosses for a couple of our members that still need drops from random stuff and the warrior just started raiding with us since one of our core had to quit playing.

Regardless, here are the logs from last night. I know there are things i need to work on. I am not the best at keeping my bleeds up, especially on fights where there are transitions, i am down right terrible dps on omnotron. I still forget to exploit the range FC bug on chimaeron, and since my 4pc is relatively new, i am still forgetting to reapply it on occasion to keep it up.

In general, i would say i know what i am doing, but just need to stay focused on certain things (bleeds and SOTP mainly), but could just use some general advice. In the logs last night, in particular, i *tore up* on magmaw (which i am particularly proud of), but the rest of the fights just feel ok and some downright terrible (omnotron). Maybe i am being too hard on myself, but i like to try to get better and you guys are a good group to look at this stuff and tell me if i am off base and give me ideas on how to do exactly that, improve. Generally speaking, i am usually above 90% of the rank limit, ranked several times on different bosses (some of which have fallen off now).

General advice? Comments on how to improve certain fights?

Here are the logs from last night, top 10 on magmaw 10N which made my day:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/gjlo3qztzyo1wuhh/
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:55 pm

Hey Mekell.

Your analysis of your debuff and bleed up times are correct. Keeping them up constantly is going to improve your dps over anything else at this point. I can recommend a few things.

First thing, are you using an addon to track your bleeds buffs and debuffs? That is going to be key on learning to keep them all balanced. There are several mods you can use, NeedToKnow, DroodFocus, Raven (my favorite). When you can see what is coming off cooldown next it becomes easier and easier with practice to know what you need to save energy for next.

Second it may seem odd, but slow down. Like most other DPS feral isn't about "Mash it when it comes off cooldown!". You don't need to shred every time you have energy to do so. It's ok to take a second here and there to take stock of where you are at, and refresh as needed.

For most target switching fights best tip for keeping bleeds up is know when you need to switch. If you know you have about 10 seconds left, build up 5 combos and refresh rip and rake right before you swap. If you are worried you might not have energy, don't shred. Having the bleeds continue to tick will be a much better energy use.

In general I would pick one thing you want to get better at and focus on that. If that’s bleed up time then just keep focused on getting better with it. When you feel comfortable start adding more shreds back in and go from there

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby mekell » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:58 pm

Ive told myself slow down many times, and typically just get stuck in the moment trying to keep track of not just my stuff but, depending on the fight, several other things pertaining to the raid as well. Energy is based on time, so long as your bar isnt full and as empty as possible when the fight ends, you dont really lose any dps, right?

I do not currently use any addons to track by bleeds, i used to use FeralByNight in WOTLK and tried DroodFocus a bit in Cata, and just for one reason or another, dropped them. I will have to give it a new shot.

Pooling energy, as you pointed out, is one major problem i have that I rarely think about. omnotron is the perfect example of that and how poorly i am at keeping track of when switches are about to happen

like i mentioned, my guild sometimes has me doing all sorts of things which sometimes prevent me from keeping bleeds up, but ultimately a tracker will serve as a decent reminder at the very least.

Thanks for the input tinder, I suspected i knew my problems already, so its just going to take some more practice to make perfect :)
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:20 pm

mekell wrote: I suspected i knew my problems already, so its just going to take some more practice to make perfect :)

Thats the spirit!

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