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4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Floofles » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:44 pm

How long are you engaged in switching target?

10s to get up all of the bleeds?

How is there any gain, potential or not, from normal amounts of haste? To get any gain, potential nor not, you need much much much more haste than you think. If you want to switch faster then the most valuable stat is arguably critical strike or either of the hit/expertise things.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:58 pm

Floofles wrote:How long are you engaged in switching target?

10s to get up all of the bleeds?

How is there any gain, potential or not, from normal amounts of haste? To get any gain, potential nor not, you need much much much more haste than you think. If you want to switch faster then the most valuable stat is arguably critical strike or either of the hit/expertise things.


Depends on the fight. I'm just pointing out what seems most logical and what the results have shown me.

I have nowhere stated that what I have found was going to be absolute fact or that it was set in stone, just that it was what had been put out through the tests. I have taken quite a bit of criticism in this thread, adapted my strategies of testing and posted new results using the more accurate methods. It was never my indication to do this for complete accuracy, only to get a general consensus as to what would be best, sort of a kick-start guide to 4.2 Kitty until Yawning/Tang/Leaf managed to post their findings.

Based on the changes on the PTR there is nothing to indicate that Mastery will get any stronger and yet the stats that will directly affect our Direct Damage, which got numerous buffs, would. Mew, using the 13 different possible reforging strategies, has mirrored this. If you noticed, even though Haste > Crit > Mastery comes out on top, I frequently advocate the second option, Haste > Hit/Exp > Crit since it will provide far better results on non-static fights.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:33 pm

Konungr wrote:I have nowhere stated that what I have found was going to be absolute fact or that it was set in stone, just that it was what had been put out through the tests.

Actually post #18 in your wow forums thread you did http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2592641963#18

Konungr wrote:I have taken quite a bit of criticism in this thread, adapted my strategies of testing and posted new results using the more accurate methods. It was never my indication to do this for complete accuracy, only to get a general consensus as to what would be best, sort of a kick-start guide to 4.2 Kitty until Yawning/Tang/Leaf managed to post their findings.

Konungr I really think you need to be conscious of your approach. You need to understand a few things:
First off you need to communicate the difference between running a simulation in Mew and actually testing. Are you using Leafkillers script in Mew or the default one? Have you then taken the same script into the PTR to try and replicate the results you have posted? If all you are doing is running simulations and nothing else I can see why people are questioning your numbers without any experience trying them out.

Second while you haven't said this is the end all be all stat priority for 4.2 you have implied that it is fact. Nowhere in your first few posts on the wow forums have you put a disclaimer that this is just early figures based on some simulations and not actual testing. This should be the first line of the thread. You need to be very careful when posting things like this without qualifications and without real input from the community. Currently your thread is being linked in most question threads on both MMO Champion forums and on the wow forums, and it IS being taken as gospel. While you have taken feedback here on these forums they are a very small subset of the feral community right now. The context of people questioning your numbers has not made its way out to those forums, and as a result everyone is taking it as end all be all. Also realize that you are putting numbers up to a group of people that has the attention span of a ferret on a cocaine bender. Most people are only reading the first 3-4 posts on that thread and nothing else. All they want is to be told what to do, and you are telling them.

Konungr wrote:Based on the changes on the PTR there is nothing to indicate that Mastery will get any stronger and yet the stats that will directly affect our Direct Damage, which got numerous buffs, would. Mew, using the 13 different possible reforging strategies, has mirrored this. If you noticed, even though Haste > Crit > Mastery comes out on top, I frequently advocate the second option, Haste > Hit/Exp > Crit since it will provide far better results on non-static fights.

Have you actually tested any of the fights on the PTR under these assumptions? The reason I ask is all of your "Top" dps profiles are within 100-200 dps of each other. What is the margin of error for these? If this stuff isn't on the front page of the post what you say 3 pages later is lost because most people won't get that far.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Alaron » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:44 pm

Tired so posting without as much explanation as I would normally.

Notes:
Built using initial stats from Floof's 378 build:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... 470L#gid=0
Instead of reforging all stats to hit>exp>mastery, simply reforged some hit to exp to get hit comfortably below cap.
This left me with 502 Crit and 290 Haste to move around.
This became the Baseline profile.
From the Baseline, I created:
MaxCrit (+290cr -290ha)
MaxHaste (-502cr +502ha)
MaxMastery (-502cr -290ha +792ma)
MaxHitExp (+92hit -92haste +265exp -265crit)
I then tested all 5 profiles against 7 scripts; PW and 6 variants of Atramedes (30G30A, 30G15A, 30G5A, 15G30A, 15G15A, 15G5A) with G and A being ground/air phase times, respectively. All profiles start with ground phase first.
20% randomization, 20000 iterations, etc. etc. Everything's attached. Feel free to critique my methodology before I clean it up and turn it into a front-page post. (Won't be on forums until tomorrow night, ~20 hrs or so)

Results: (Arg I hate BBcodetables next time I'm taking a damn screenshot)
PW 30G30A 30G15A 30G5A 15G30A 15G15A 15G5A
29436 18058 22918 24203 13619 20078 26015 Baseline
29394 18047 23023 24185 13647 20166 26110 MaxCrit
29387 18005 22870 24174 13549 19952 25961 MaxHaste
29424 18119 23125 24231 13772 20371 26253 MaxMastery
29370 18093 22961 24190 13653 20064 26017 MaxHitExp
Attachments
ilvl378FeralStatsTest.zip
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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:52 pm

Nice to see people making use of the Atramedes script. I hope it is not too far out of date. Using the new capability to pass keywords into the script (the box Yawning built for me one night) I plan to fold the Atramedes code directly into a sim script so it can be more easily maintained. I should probably also add the air and ground times to the params - then no editing of the script would be needed.

It would be interesting to see how the fights with air phases affect the 4T12 set bonus.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:53 pm

@Alaron

Thank you for additional work on this, though might I suggest, since none of the profiles have this, try reforging away from Mastery. With all the buffs to Direct Damage and the loss of the Rake T112PC, Mastery gains nothing, while the other 4 stats gain considerably, logically. I would love to see your set-up with the scripts and gear set-up on different Min-Mastery set-ups.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Odas » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:24 pm

With the reduction to the base damage of all the direct attacks and the buff to rake (both scaling and the initial application doing full damage) its not surprising that mastery is not as bad as it was in previous PTR builds.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby felhoof » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:29 pm

Interesting results, and a smidgen counterintuitive at first until you realize how much time is spent on Atra not actually DPSing directly (which would of course favor bleeds).

PW is the more interesting result to me - it's very odd that we'd see that the best value is the one where everything is basically as it stands. This lends more credence to the notion that stat rankings are very likely close to each other and that differences that you can actually make are fairly small.

That being said, I'd really love to see a different buildout that actually can have some major variance to see what is optimal as a rule; this will help answer some of the offset questions, for instance.

It's also...well, it's kind of majorly disappointing. When all stats are roughly equivalent, nothing is particularly exciting save trinkets. IT was already getting that way with the rebalancing of major stats and removal of interesting ones like arpen. Now it's even worse.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:47 pm

Odas wrote:With the reduction to the base damage of all the direct attacks and the buff to rake (both scaling and the initial application doing full damage) its not surprising that mastery is not as bad as it was in previous PTR builds.



The Changes to the Weapon Damage % change of Mangle, Shred, and Ravage far outweigh the minor nerfs they received, and the buff to rake is still only 1 tick every ~18 secs. I still think that if a low-mastery set-up was tested it would probably do a bit better than one with full mastery. Not to mention there was no buff to Rip, so all it got was nerf.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:44 pm

@ Alaron, I may take the simulations you ran and expand them to include the 13 profiles I created with the Full 378 gear, create a quick graph and post it tomorrow. I will post a Screenshot of all the final stats that show up for each profiles when I go to post it, so that the allocation of the stats can be viewed along with their results in the various test scripts. I will be using all 7, so it may be around noonish by the time I get done with all 91 Simulations and format the results into a spreadsheet.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:41 pm

When you post up your numbers can you include the following from the mew output?
Exp:
DPS: 23100.12636 +/- 1.10696
Min/Max DPS: 20633.22333 / 25874.79667
StdDev: 564.77326
DPS (> 25%): 22363.45111
DPS (< 25%): 25310.15212

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:54 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:When you post up your numbers can you include the following from the mew output?
Exp:
DPS: 23100.12636 +/- 1.10696
Min/Max DPS: 20633.22333 / 25874.79667
StdDev: 564.77326
DPS (> 25%): 22363.45111
DPS (< 25%): 25310.15212


Alright. That may take a little trickery to make it look decent in the table, since I will be turning 91 lines into 455, but I will see what I can do. I will also Zip up the 13 Mew Profiles, the 6 non-PW Scripts, and the Excel Spreadsheets and attach them for the other TCs to take a look at the work.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:03 pm

Ok, I finished it.
First, the Trinkets, Buffs/Debuffs, Talents/Glyphs, and Parameters were the same for all 13 profiles:
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... inkets.png
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... ebuffs.png
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... glyphs.png
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... meters.png

Second, I made a quick table to show the amount of stats in each profile, to show where the balance is allocated. The 378 Reforge None profile was the basic set-up of gear, no Reforges done. This turned out to be a fairly balanced set-up across the board.
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... rSetup.png
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... Layout.png

Lastly, I ran each of the 13 profiles through each of the 7 strategies: (In Order: Patchwerk, 30G30A, 30G15A, 30G5A, 15G30A, 15G15A, 15G5A )
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... chwerk.png
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... -30Air.png
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... -15Air.png
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... d-5Air.png
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... -30Air.png
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... -15Air.png
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... d-5Air.png


Enjoy!

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:08 pm

Here are the attached files. This includes all the Mew Scripts and Profiles used. I was originally going to add the Excel Spreadsheets and the Screen Caps but they are too big for the transfer so.
Attachments
Mew Scripts.zip
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Mew Profiles.zip
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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Lax » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:31 pm

Looking at those dps tables, "hit exp mastery" seems to do pretty well for all types of simulations. Very convenient ... no need to reforge anything :)

In any case, learning the positioning, phases and tricks for the new firelands encounters will be much more important for dps than reforging stats.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:37 pm

Lax wrote:Looking at those dps tables, "hit exp mastery" seems to do pretty well for all types of simulations. Very convenient ... no need to reforge anything :)

In any case, learning the positioning, phases and tricks for the new firelands encounters will be much more important for dps than reforging stats.



Well keep in mind that those 6 fight scripts are all based on fights where there is a period of time you can't attack at all, which means you will not be doing any Direct Damage, so Crit/Haste go down a lot, and Hit Exp gain since you have a very limited amount of time to make sure everything is up and maximizing your active damage.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Lax » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:40 pm

Yes, but it comes in 3rd on the PW fight - only ~150 dps lower. With the stats being that close, I think I will reforge hit and exp in any case, because its just much more forgiving ... I'm not a robot :)

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:42 pm

Lax wrote:Yes, but it comes in 3rd on the PW fight - only ~150 dps lower. With the stats being that close, I think I will reforge hit and exp in any case, because its just much more forgiving ... I'm not a robot :)


I was referring to the increase in Mastery's value, Hit/Exp is strong all around in 4.2, besides the fact that I am currently Hit/Exp capped right now.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby mekell » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:54 pm

I personally am leaning towards hit/exp as well. I messed around with it prior to the patch and really enjoyed not missing or missing less frequently when it comes to trying to get bleeds up, and refreshing them on command.

If things do pan out to how we are simulating them, then i think it will be a nice change of pace to "reforge to what you feel most comfortable with" without there being much penalty for it.
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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Kallapryy » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:00 pm

I'd be curious to see how professions stack in 4.2.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Konungr » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:01 pm

Kallapryy wrote:I'd be curious to see how professions stack in 4.2.



What do you mean?

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby mekell » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:07 pm

With all the 2ndary stats being roughly equal, i dont see any change in how the professions stack now. JC being the best very slightly, maybe followed by ENG and all the rest being roughly equal (some being more flexible than the others). If haste ends up being more desireable than we foresee, then herbalism could potentially be a viable 2ndary profession, but +240 haste every 2 minutes with basically a non-existent heal probably wont win any contests.

Edit for clarification: At this point, any profession giving a primary stat will always be better than any 2ndary profession giving any 2ndary stat. Meaning, all primary professions will be better than any 2ndary profession because, in the case of ferals, the primary professions give agi which will always be better than say, haste. My post above was only if something drastically unexpected happens to the value of haste, i was not implying that herbalism would be better than any primary profession given the information we have now.

This is just conjecture on my part, and in no way based on imperical evidence.
Last edited by mekell on Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Kallapryy » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:13 pm

Konungr wrote:
Kallapryy wrote:I'd be curious to see how professions stack in 4.2.



What do you mean?



Konungr - Which professions provide the best damage benefits.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:14 pm

mekell wrote:With all the 2ndary stats being roughly equal, i dont see any change in how the professions stack now. JC being the best very slightly, maybe followed by ENG and all the rest being roughly equal (some being more flexible than the others). If haste ends up being more desireable than we foresee, then herbalism could potentially be a viable 2ndary profession, but +240 haste every 2 minutes with basically a non-existent heal probably wont win any contests.

This is just conjecture on my part, and in no way based on imperical evidence.

No matter how good haste becomes it will NEVER exceed the value of Agility. As all the main crafting professions save Tailoring/Engeineering give a flat Agility bonus herbalism will continue to be sub par.

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Re: 4.2 Kitty Gear Spreadsheet

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:15 pm

Kallapryy wrote:
Konungr wrote:
Kallapryy wrote:I'd be curious to see how professions stack in 4.2.



What do you mean?



Konungr - Which professions provide the best damage benefits.

Professions should remain unchanged. As all of the bonus's are agility based they will continue to be awesome, and no more then 1 point different from any other profession (tailoring/engineering excluded).

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