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Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

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Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Rawf » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:57 pm

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... 611?page=1

If you have an EU account, please post a feral question and put a link to it in this thread so that everyone can upvote it. Post other people's feral questions too.
Last edited by Rawf on Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Floofles » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:31 pm

What do people want asked?

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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:46 pm

How about why, when they finally gave us an interrupt, they made it more expensive than others, and included a built in delay that makes it more difficult to interrupt short spell casts?

You could also ask them why they are giving us such a terrible 4 piece set bonus in T12 gear. Grabbing the sample 391 Ptr profile - dps is 33191. Turning off the 4 piece T12 set bonus gives 32575. That is a 1.9% dps bonus on a patchwork fight. How often in actual fights will we be able to Berserk for 31+ seconds (we are already sitting at 25 seconds with the new GoB).

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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Floofles » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:17 pm

Fuck this, i've just spent an entire night on the PTR unable to shred shit, i'm going to ask why shred still has a positional requirement.

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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Floofles » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:28 pm


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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Konungr » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:33 pm

GRRR. I want to rate that thing to the moon and back but alas, I cannot. We are still the only spec in the game with a positional requirement, besides rogues, who only use theirs during the execute phase.

Quick Question @ Floofeas: Why no Unheeded Warning?

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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Floofles » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:38 pm

You trolling?

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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Konungr » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:40 pm

Floofles wrote:You trolling?



No, Unheeded Warning is BiS, why are you using anything besides it.

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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:45 pm

Konungr wrote:
Floofles wrote:You trolling?



No, Unheeded Warning is BiS, why are you using anything besides it.

Konungr. I would think twice before you continue on this path. First it is clear you have not been reading all of the posts here on the forums. Second I am pretty sure you won't be able to find more then 3-4 people who have parsed higher the Floofles on every fight this tier. I think perhaps you should be a little more respectful of your fellow forum posters. Perhaps you could pose your question in a far less condescending mannor.

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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Konungr » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:49 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
Konungr wrote:
Floofles wrote:You trolling?



No, Unheeded Warning is BiS, why are you using anything besides it.

Konungr. I would think twice before you continue on this path. First it is clear you have not been reading all of the posts here on the forums. Second I am pretty sure you won't be able to find more then 3-4 people who have parsed higher the Floofles on every fight this tier. I think perhaps you should be a little more respectful of your fellow forum posters. Perhaps you could pose your question in a far less condescending mannor.


If I sounded condescending, I apologize. That was not my motive. I was simply curious, hence the question, as to why he is not using Unheeded Warning. If I did not respect him and his ability to play Feral than I would not have asked at all. I know he is a very talented player and therefore was curious as to his peculiar, IMHO, trinket choice.

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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:59 pm

Reposting from the Let's Talk About Log's Thread:

Floofles wrote:
I have to answer that with a question. Why the love for UW? Is it the 9 DPS higher (which is statistically insignificant) than heroic prestor's in mew? Is it the claims of scaling massively with gear that were based off of various wrong assumptions? I don't see any evidence for any of the claims that this trinket is amazing.

Tinderhoof wrote:
To build on this the UW trinket will sim better then other trinkets on patchwork style fights. If you never have to change target, and spend most of every proc shredding it will likely come out on top. However we all know that none of the current fights or the upcoming 4.2 fights match up with this. Also as the UW proc does not buff bleeds or swipe it loses some of the "sim'd" shine.

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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Konungr » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:01 pm

Aha, good to know. Guess I might need to re-evaluate and pull out my Fluid Death from the bank, me thinks.

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Re: Ask the Dex #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Qbear » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:07 pm

Man wish I could vote up EU posts.

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby shinryu » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:13 am

For what it's worth, FD will also make it significantly easier to get hit/exp capped...now as to whether UW beats out H Cyclone/Prestor, dunno.

On topic, I can already tell you the answers the blizz devs will give for shred; they'll just compare it to fucking rogue Backstab again like they did before, despite the fact only 2 rogue specs use it (and one of those as their basic execution mechanic, as with Assassination it becomes better than Mutilate at the 25% mark due to energy regen in most cases). Sub is the only spec that uses it full time like ferals, and, well we all know the sorry state sub is at...

But yeah, in a way if you look at it one way, there's almost no reason for melee to never be behind a boss anyways since that's where you can negate their parry and such, so in that regard Shred is fine. But it's during the many cases we have to be in front, having a positional requirement is just an outdated, stupid mechanic that shouldn't exist given the many other "convenience" buffs other classes got going into cata; sure we can mangle from the front, and given that our current 4p needs Mangle it wouldn't be the end of the world, but it's still less damage overall; why should we get a hit when other melee just continue facerolling? Even Sub is having Hemo buffed to the point they're wondering if it'd be better than Backstab I think, or something like that...don't quote me on that though because I'm not completely sure, might've been just an arena thing for using 1h non-daggers again.

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Lax » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:34 am

I bet the only argument they have to keep the positional requirement on shred is that it would be overpowered in PvP if they removed it. The only reason they still have it on backstab is probably because if the name ... backstab.

It just seems unfair that we should get punished twice for standing in front of the boss compared to other melee classes. I will vote the question up later today when I get home.

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby CaptainCub » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:35 am

Leafkiller wrote:How about why, when they finally gave us an interrupt, they made it more expensive than others, and included a built in delay that makes it more difficult to interrupt short spell casts?

I think the extra cost is tied to the charge component that allows us to kick moving targets more reliably than other melee - besides shamans.

shinryu wrote:having a positional requirement is just an outdated, stupid mechanic that shouldn't exist given the many other "convenience" buffs other classes got going into cata;

I sincerely think were they to remove the positioning requirement, we'd be too faceroll in PvP and get nerfed for the lesser travel time to the backs of our targets.

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby shinryu » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:36 pm

CaptainCub wrote:
Leafkiller wrote:How about why, when they finally gave us an interrupt, they made it more expensive than others, and included a built in delay that makes it more difficult to interrupt short spell casts?

I think the extra cost is tied to the charge component that allows us to kick moving targets more reliably than other melee - besides shamans.

shinryu wrote:having a positional requirement is just an outdated, stupid mechanic that shouldn't exist given the many other "convenience" buffs other classes got going into cata;

I sincerely think were they to remove the positioning requirement, we'd be too faceroll in PvP and get nerfed for the lesser travel time to the backs of our targets.

At the risk of alienating others...screw PvP! lol...but seriously, it is soo annoying how pvp ruins the core pve purpose of the game...though honestly I'm not sure how shred would necessarily make us broken, feral still doesn't have nearly the many other tools as some classes imo.

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Tavi » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:53 pm

Well it received the "Highly Rated" tag. I really hope they get to it. If what floofles wrote is true 4.2 is going to suck.
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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Lax » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:19 pm

And the answers are here...

If encounters are not being designed with positional requirements and or other abilities (Shred, Backstab, Feral Charge on Al'akir, Killing Spree in general) in mind, why do we still have those requirements? It seems unfair in a competitive PvE environment to allow those very limiting requirements to exist if the encounters are going to be heavily punitive towards classes that have them. – Foxlore (NA/ANZ)
The main reason we have the positional requirement is to have a different vector along which to design abilities. Backstab without a directional requirement could probably just be folded into Sinister Strike. It’s a way to make abilities different from each other, in the same way we have ranged attacks vs. melee attacks, instant spells vs. cast time spells and physical damage vs. magic damage. Also consider that all melee should want to get behind a target, and it hurts all of their DPS when they cannot. We have also made the alternatives to the positional requirements much less of a DPS loss than they used to be. If you go into your Mangle rotation instead of your Shred rotation, your DPS will drop, but not catastrophically. Now there are some encounters where the positional penalty is just too extreme. In 4.2 we have the ability to make the “back” of a boss encompass 240 degrees, and we have done so for bosses like Magmaw, Sinestra and Ragnaros. Furthermore, there are fights where Killing Spree and Feral Charge just kill you. That obviously isn’t acceptable. We have manually added some safeguards to try and manually solve a few encounters, such as Magmaw, but even that isn’t bulletproof and we are investigating more robust and global solutions. But it’s technically challenging given the diversity of our encounters.


http://www.wowheadnews.com/blog=191345/ ... ge-dealing

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby shinryu » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:22 pm

Well even if it's a lame answer, at least it "sounds" like they're trying to keep it in mind when designing some of this stuff.

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Yawning » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:24 am

Also consider that all melee should want to get behind a target, and it hurts all of their DPS when they cannot. We have also made the alternatives to the positional requirements much less of a DPS loss than they used to be. If you go into your Mangle rotation instead of your Shred rotation, your DPS will drop, but not catastrophically.


Well, since I love showing off (and I'm fairly sure I'm the only person that uses some features of Mew, despite not playing at all)....

Numbers taken from tip of tree, with a 360 second +- 10% encounter, and 100k iterations per.

359 Druid
Baseline: 24855.59 +- 3.45376 sigma 557.23236
From the front: 21288.59 +- 3.16376 sigma 510.44294 (85%)
From the front, Glyph of Mangle: 21716.37 +- 3.23497 sigma 521.93249 (87%)
From the front, allow Shred: 23161.54 +- 3.5268 sigma 569.01675 (93%)

372 Druid
Baseline: 27803.08 +- 3.82038 sigma 616.38244
From the front: 23640.98 +- 3.53544 sigma 570.41021 (85%)
From the front, Glyph of Mangle: 24107.15 +- 3.64381 sigma 587.89509 (86%)
From the front, allow Shred: 25684.65 +- 3.9568 sigma 638.39301 (92%)

378 Druid (4T12, softcap exp, hitcapped)
Baseline: 29757.85 +- 3.9672 sigma 640.07134
From the front: 25896.70 +- 3.34943 sigma 540.39879 (87%)
From the front, Glyph of Mangle: 26521.83 +- 3.48967 sigma 563.02553 (89%)
From the front, allow Shred: 28650.09 +- 3.97704 sigma 641.65872 (96%)

One of the cases I tested is hypothetical, as sort of well if "all melee should want to get behind a target, and it hurts all of their DPS when they cannot", how much does it hurt "all (other) melee". It's "only" 2-3x of the penalty that other melee classes pay. (Edit: Though it is important to keep in mind that most other classes have cooldowns on their abilities so the penalty on parry may be slightly higher.)

We can also change any of the numbers to empirically test the outcome. Furthermore, we can automate character damage rotations to a much greater degree than macros can accomplish, which gives us an idea of the delta between theoretical maxima and more typical player performance (which includes things like human reaction speed, decision making and good old Internet lag).


This is vaguely insulting since it's doing a disservice to some of the better tools like SimulationCraft and Mew.

Changing numbers or mechanics to play what if in any moderately well developed tool is trivial. Changing Mew to allow Shred from the front involved commenting out a line, changing the script to Shred when attacking from the front, also was commenting out a line, with a grand total of 4 bytes worth of changes.

I'm fairly confident as well that the way Mew happens to "automate character damage rotations" (Pssst, it's a priority list) is also considerably more sophisticated than macros, since I provide all the information that would be available, and the tools in the form of a Java compiler[0] to make decisions.

[0]: Note that some features that would be allowed in a JDK aren't in Mew scripts, see the Janino documentation for more details.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby Alaron » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:29 am

Yawning,

Let me know if you ever want to contribute a guest post, instead of just ranting on the forums. :)

I agree, it's always seemed rather arbitrary what they consider "flavor mechanics" (only a couple classes have, for better or for worse) and what's "essential." (Every class has to have). I think they keep Backstab for flavor, and then they don't change Shred since they haven't changed Backstab. Personally, I think a "attack from the back" only ability is ridiculous in a game with no clipping, but I'm not the designer.

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby shinryu » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:44 pm

Alaron wrote:Yawning,

Let me know if you ever want to contribute a guest post, instead of just ranting on the forums. :)

I agree, it's always seemed rather arbitrary what they consider "flavor mechanics" (only a couple classes have, for better or for worse) and what's "essential." (Every class has to have). I think they keep Backstab for flavor, and then they don't change Shred since they haven't changed Backstab. Personally, I think a "attack from the back" only ability is ridiculous in a game with no clipping, but I'm not the designer.

Well consider, for Mut it's essentially their execute attack at 35% and under, just as FB is for us, and that's unfair in ways as FB is a finisher that eats CP while Backstab just replaces Mutilate for the most part, and hits harder while saving energy and generating CP. Now for Sub (which almost no one uses in pve besides 1 gimmick fight), that plays out more like how Shred works. But again, look at how many people use Sub lol...

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby ShmooDude » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:59 am

In my guild anyhow, the ferals tend to do better (relatively speaking) on Al'Akir than the other melee. Granted that's only one example.

We've always suffered little from misses (compared to other classes) so the extra parries from being in front is no different.

Browsing RaidBots and the different fights, I'd say the fact that we have to Mangle is defiantly offset by the fact that we can shrug off parries (Our DPS doesn't change that much fight to fight except as mechanics skew them such as the damage buff on Nefarion, etc).

All that said, Shred having a positional is pretty crappy. And personally I reject GC's logic of "well if backstab doesn't have a positional then its just SS." Backstab is differentiated from SS by the talents its affected by, making them function radically different (and even just different depending on spec). Backstab also requires daggers while SS works better with slower weapons.

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Re: Ask the Devs #10, Damage Dealing

Postby shinryu » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:04 am

ShmooDude wrote:In my guild anyhow, the ferals tend to do better (relatively speaking) on Al'Akir than the other melee. Granted that's only one example.

We've always suffered little from misses (compared to other classes) so the extra parries from being in front is no different.

Browsing RaidBots and the different fights, I'd say the fact that we have to Mangle is defiantly offset by the fact that we can shrug off parries (Our DPS doesn't change that much fight to fight except as mechanics skew them such as the damage buff on Nefarion, etc).

All that said, Shred having a positional is pretty crappy. And personally I reject GC's logic of "well if backstab doesn't have a positional then its just SS." Backstab is differentiated from SS by the talents its affected by, making them function radically different (and even just different depending on spec). Backstab also requires daggers while SS works better with slower weapons.

Adding to that, only Combat utilizes SS later on as well exclusively as its main attack/cp builder into 85; Mut replaces it as early as 10 when they spec into Assassination and pick up Mutilate, and Sub starts getting rid of it once they starts picking up Backstab at 18 and Hemo in the 20s, though granted they might not completely give up on SS till 59 when they start getting points in the talent that makes Backstab cheap to use, so no later than 63 if one takes it right away.

So tldr, only Combat uses SS at 85, Mut uses Mut until 35% when they swap in Backstab, and Sub uses only Backstab at 85 with Hemo if they can't get behind, but in terms of leveling likely won't give up completely on SS until 59.

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