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4.2 changes

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Odas » Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:43 pm

I know for a fact that one of the tokens drops from Rag. One of my guildies got it to drop when they killed him. I forget if it was the head or shoulders.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:06 pm

felhoof wrote:Definitely the chest, gloves and legs are sold.

Not sure where the tokens drop from yet for the others. It's a very likely case that shoulders drop from Rag and Head from Fandral, but it's not absolutely set in stone. Ultimately it won't matter; the stuff is fairly easy and the offset pieces that you should be aiming for are not the head and shoulders.

I dunno, that makes it a lot worse to me then; I don't want to have to rely on freaking rng to get 2/4 of the needed tier pieces when it took over 3 months to get one from cho'gall, not to mention potentially denying our resto and mage their tier upgrades too >.>. Add in the time it'll take just to get up to clearing Staghelm and Rag (since my server sucks ass) and I'll be lucky to have 4p once again just before the next raid patch comes out.

Yeah what can I say, I really fucking hate the token system. Maybe if 2 dropped in a 10man it wouldn't be so bad, but 1 is fucking ridiculous, especially when the same one for a class drops multiple times; I think our tanks and heals both finished their main and offsets with 4p t11 before I got mine just for mainset >.>

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Konungr » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:25 pm

@Shinryu, You only need 1 of them to get your 4PC, and the verdict still isn't in as to whether or not it is going to be worth it, having such a long berserk.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:55 pm

Konungr wrote:@Shinryu, You only need 1 of them to get your 4PC, and the verdict still isn't in as to whether or not it is going to be worth it, having such a long berserk.


As long as you have some uninterrupted time for the Berserk (i.e. 45 seconds on the target) the set bonus is obviously worth getting. I think we can safely say the verdict is in - check the sims below:

From Mew using the 378 hit/exp profile I uploaded, 5 minute Patchwork fight:
With the 4 piece set bonus enabled: 30491
With the 4 piece set bonus turned off: 29785

5 minute Atramedes fight:
With 4 piece: 25178
No 4 piece: 24656

390 second Patchwork (gets a third clipped Berserk):
With 4 piece: 29749
No 4 piece: 29569

390 second Atramedes:
With 4 piece: 24102
No 4 piece: 23675

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby ShmooDude » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:37 pm

Leafkiller wrote:
Konungr wrote:@Shinryu, You only need 1 of them to get your 4PC, and the verdict still isn't in as to whether or not it is going to be worth it, having such a long berserk.


As long as you have some uninterrupted time for the Berserk (i.e. 45 seconds on the target) the set bonus is obviously worth getting. I think we can safely say the verdict is in - check the sims below:

From Mew using the 378 hit/exp profile I uploaded, 5 minute Patchwork fight:
With the 4 piece set bonus enabled: 30491
With the 4 piece set bonus turned off: 29785

5 minute Atramedes fight:
With 4 piece: 25178
No 4 piece: 24656

390 second Patchwork (gets a third clipped Berserk):
With 4 piece: 29749
No 4 piece: 29569

390 second Atramedes:
With 4 piece: 24102
No 4 piece: 23675


Also, given how close all our secondary stats are. Even if the 4 piece was only worth say, 100 DPS, that's still an increase over any "favorable" secondary stats you could possibly get from off pieces (something leaf has pointed out in the past, thought I'd emphasize as well). There's really no reason not to get it.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:05 pm

Konungr wrote:@Shinryu, You only need 1 of them to get your 4PC, and the verdict still isn't in as to whether or not it is going to be worth it, having such a long berserk.

No my point was the way the guy I quoted worded his post was that BiS would encompass both helm and shoulder, while getting another item as offset. Which if true would be what I would aim for instead of having to use a less optimized tier piece.

And though Leafkiller and others beat me to it, it's obvious having it would be better than not having it at all really, what would you use instead, 2t11 and 2t12 or just 2t12 and other random fireland drops?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Konungr » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:05 am

I would use it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to obtain that 4th piece and I wouldn't take it from the Resto or Mage or DK Tank in our run that's 4PC might be better.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Rarge » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:37 pm

Do we know whether it is worth keeping Berserk up when TF comes off CD? Or is it better to cancel Berserk when TF comes off CD?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:13 pm

Konungr wrote:I would use it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to obtain that 4th piece and I wouldn't take it from the Resto or Mage or DK Tank in our run that's 4PC might be better.

That's was kinda my whole point with the stupid token system...it's just ridiculous to tie up them behind bosses.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:13 am

Rarge wrote:Do we know whether it is worth keeping Berserk up when TF comes off CD? Or is it better to cancel Berserk when TF comes off CD?


Yawning just did a quick test on that. It was a 300-400 dps loss to cancel Berserk for TF. Quoting him (because I asked just after he released the 4.2 Mew):
"So no, don't cancel Berserk, and don't cause Yawning to panic right after releasing something"

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby felhoof » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:14 pm

That's was kinda my whole point with the stupid token system...it's just ridiculous to tie up them behind bosses.
Uh...why?

I guess I miss the old days when tier gear was a privilege and not a right and it was hard to get 4p of anything - not just because of random drops but because it meant you killed the hardest bosses in the game. Tier gear looked great too, so it helped there; you weren't just wearing whatever.

And realistically, you don't need to get your 4p if you're just doing normal content anyway.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:16 pm

felhoof wrote:
That's was kinda my whole point with the stupid token system...it's just ridiculous to tie up them behind bosses.
Uh...why?

I guess I miss the old days when tier gear was a privilege and not a right and it was hard to get 4p of anything - not just because of random drops but because it meant you killed the hardest bosses in the game. Tier gear looked great too, so it helped there; you weren't just wearing whatever.

And realistically, you don't need to get your 4p if you're just doing normal content anyway.

...because this isn't the old days anymore and quite a bit of their armor looks like crap nowadays? I mean I've always hated this system, it's not like it's a recent rant. Adding more rng (token class) on top of rng (winning a roll or however your guild distributes loot) just makes for a lame design...maybe that's the root of the problem, if they'd make the tokens classless, at least then they would always be useful for 10-25 people before going to offset and at least everyone in a raid group would eventually get it instead of waiting forever for the right one to drop...

But that's my thoughts on it, to me armor is not a sign of prestige anymore (I mean, who the hell notices these days?). Stuff like titles and mounts from achieves are the new status symbols.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby felhoof » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:29 pm

So why not just have everything drop via VP?

I used to think that way too - that random drops being random sucks. But it's also a major motivator and is a huge reason why WoW has repeatable content. If you went to a system where everything went to VP (and realistically if you make things like all tier gear go to VP you HAVE to do that), there is a strict cap on how long you raid before you have literally every piece of gear you want. No matter what.

So then what? The guilds who gear to raid are totally set within a certain parameter and can focus on the bosses they want to kill past that point. That's good.

The guilds who raid to get gear are set after a certain point and just stop playing or go on raids with alts. That kinda sucks for them, but so it goes.

The guilds who have a mix of folks? They get kinda hosed.

BTW, the system you're proposing was what they used in ToC time. And people hated it. They hated that they had to run heroic dungeons to get their raid gear and progress there. They hated that they felt pressure to run as much as they could in order to get gear as fast as they could. They hated that they needed to upgrade these pieces by first buying them at a crappy level and then upgrade them to okay later on.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby mekell » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:32 pm

As a note, the system has changed since ToC as well with the weekly caps on points, and even caps on how you can acquire those points within the same level. And even that is changing again with this patch.

honestly, i hate the idea of feeling like i have to run heroics to get the VP i need to buy the 3 pieces of t12 i am going to need to get, but ill deal with it because i hate the idea of not getting those pieces more.

On the opposite side of that, i dont think i would like a purely random system either as my luck tends to be REALLY crappy, or the RNG decides not to be RNG and you get the same exact drops from the boss your stuff drops off of for 6 weeks in a row. I seriously dont think the RNG is truely random, but thats a topic for another thread.

The system they have now is the compromise between all random and all purchased. It works ok, but i am sure theres a better way (there generally always is).
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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby felhoof » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:00 pm

Rohan on Blessing of Kings made an argument that the best solution is to have VP drop from raids and be mostly how you get gear, and not have VP come from anywhere else.

The disadvantage with that is that without the motivation to run heroics regularly - especially folks who don't raid often but do want to advance some - heroics are hell as far as finding groups. This was the model in (iirc) 4.1 time, and the daily dungeon model was a direct response to it - because it was very, very hard to find groups running anything.

So that's the real dilemma: how do you make raiders not want to run heroics but still have heroics viable for people, especially as content moves forward. You could pay people - but CtA doesn't work too well right now. You could reward them with something that's hard to cap (like VP) - but it makes it hard for raiders. You could cap raiders quickly, but that makes drops really trivial and reduces the slot machine effect.

Ideally what you want is a system that lets heroics stay fresh and rewarding for a while but also lets people move on eventually. That keeps giving some reward but not necessarily as great a reward as they first got. And one that doesn't obligate people who don't want to run the stuff at all to do it, but rewards them if they do. It's a tough nut to crack.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Rarge » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:31 pm

Leafkiller wrote:
Rarge wrote:Do we know whether it is worth keeping Berserk up when TF comes off CD? Or is it better to cancel Berserk when TF comes off CD?


Yawning just did a quick test on that. It was a 300-400 dps loss to cancel Berserk for TF. Quoting him (because I asked just after he released the 4.2 Mew):
"So no, don't cancel Berserk, and don't cause Yawning to panic right after releasing something"


Thanks :P
Sorry Yawning!

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:59 pm

felhoof wrote:So why not just have everything drop via VP?

I used to think that way too - that random drops being random sucks. But it's also a major motivator and is a huge reason why WoW has repeatable content. If you went to a system where everything went to VP (and realistically if you make things like all tier gear go to VP you HAVE to do that), there is a strict cap on how long you raid before you have literally every piece of gear you want. No matter what.

So then what? The guilds who gear to raid are totally set within a certain parameter and can focus on the bosses they want to kill past that point. That's good.

The guilds who raid to get gear are set after a certain point and just stop playing or go on raids with alts. That kinda sucks for them, but so it goes.

The guilds who have a mix of folks? They get kinda hosed.

BTW, the system you're proposing was what they used in ToC time. And people hated it. They hated that they had to run heroic dungeons to get their raid gear and progress there. They hated that they felt pressure to run as much as they could in order to get gear as fast as they could. They hated that they needed to upgrade these pieces by first buying them at a crappy level and then upgrade them to okay later on.

For what it's worth, at the time I liked ToC from the viewpoint that it was simple bosses only and no lame packs of trash after 2 tiers, plus you're wrong to assume "everyone" hated it, maybe the hardcores or something but plenty of people enjoyed it as well. Looking back, I do agree to some points that the setting and bosses were boring and the concept itself was certainly dumb (lol let's joust right outside the Lich King's house), but as most people (including myself) hadn't cleared even Ulduar back then, so that made up the rest of the week after knocking out ToC. And being on a backwater server, no one even bothered with the hardmodes until the very end when ICC was out, and then into ICC; I don't think Algalon was even killed on my server until well into ICC. Not to mention you can't keep raid content fresh forever by forcing people to raid over and over again for loot, eventually it will go to a point of burnout or people just giving up, especially if reg modes are cleared at the least, as not everyone likes hard modes.

As far as I'm concerned, they system where you can cap VP with only running heroics as is going into 4.2 is just wrong and stupid; maybe that's a reason why they don't have all the tier items buyable atm, but that still punishes raiders in that we're going to initially have to run the same old lame heroics to meet our cap (until reg mode can be cleared weekly), and then later on just get screwed by rng for a token to get the 4p. To the extent I care, if people can't be bothered to raid, they shouldn't get VP, pure and simple. Either that or have heroics drops such a meager amount of VP that they can't cap weekly...but that's my feelings on it, I know at a practical level it would never fly. Still, compare it to pvp/arena, if people can't be bothered to do arena, they'll never earn a practical amount of CP doing the BG call to arms to ever buy anything besides a libram or ring, in addition to being locked out of "heroic" pvp gearing since those require ranking.

So again, I say either have classless tokens dropping off bosses if they really want to keep their crap system in place (as at least then it's an eventuality you'll get the tier item) or make them the "ultimate" high price VP reward, like 4k or so, so that only people who've been playing content for weeks will be able to get it; 4k vp is still over 4 weeks of meeting the VP cap of 980 every week, so seriously if you can't get the rng to drop you your needed token in the equivalent to a month, then at least it's an option to buy for raiders that could use it, or the casual/non-raider to complete their set and feel happy in their odd way.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby felhoof » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:00 pm

No, you misunderstand. People hated the system of loot. There was a lot of grousing at the time about how you had to first buy the tier gear by getting both badges AND a token, but at least the token dropped easily from everyone. But if you wanted to advance you had to get the badges too. It was really annoying for a lot of folks and led them to change it immediately to the system they're currently using in ICC and beyond - where some things can be bought, but others are drops.

If people can't get rewards from running heroics that are at least something useful then they're just not going to play. That's not what WoW wants. In addition to that, if you can't get geared up somewhat for the next tier it becomes necessary to run older raids - and blizzard absolutely doesn't want that.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:56 am

felhoof wrote:No, you misunderstand. People hated the system of loot. There was a lot of grousing at the time about how you had to first buy the tier gear by getting both badges AND a token, but at least the token dropped easily from everyone. But if you wanted to advance you had to get the badges too. It was really annoying for a lot of folks and led them to change it immediately to the system they're currently using in ICC and beyond - where some things can be bought, but others are drops.

If people can't get rewards from running heroics that are at least something useful then they're just not going to play. That's not what WoW wants. In addition to that, if you can't get geared up somewhat for the next tier it becomes necessary to run older raids - and blizzard absolutely doesn't want that.

Umm...all of the base t9 in ToC and t10 gear in ICC WAS buyable though, just to upgrade to better versions you needed the tokens; specifically you could buy all 5 pieces of 232 T9, or if you wanted and had a reliable 25man group/gdkp, save up and then grab a trophy for 245, with the "best" heroic one (258) then needing the token. T10 was the same case, with all the base 251 pieces being buyable for badges, and then upgrading to 264 or 277 needing tokens. But here's my main point though; you could at least BUY all of the base tier gear in t9 or t10, and from there play around with upgrading at your leisure, so at the very least you weren't stuck on waiting for a boss to drop the right armor token just to get a base piece. Which was a significant improvement over T7 or T8, which was actually worse in that you could only buy 2/5 tier items, ad the rest being token drops off bosses (including tokens for the buyable pieces too). And of course, all of the tiers since wotlk have had good ol' loot pony dropping a random leg or glove item as well as every possible pvp piece nearly, making it unreliable but at least worth running weekly for a shot.

What T11 has (and t12 is looking like) is a semi-dumb combo of t7/8 and t10, where you can buy 3/5 tier pieces, with 2 armor/class token drops from bosses, and then another specific armor/class token on top of that to upgrade, though in t12's case at least to upgrade it looks like it'll be a classless "token" in the form of whatever that fire crystal thing is, making upgrades at least easier. But the point still being, you can get RNG-fucked and remain potentially 3/4 base t12 pieces well into heroic modes with no other options unless raggy or staghelm play nice. So honestly? I think t9 (sans the weird middle tier needing a trophy) and t10 (good without the weird 3 levels of ilvl) both came the best to getting it right, with all base tier armor pieces being buyable and then tokens available from the hard modes for upgrading.

Eventually people are going to have to run some of the older raids to gear up regardless; sure you could spam run heroics and wait for a few weeks to grab 378s to go into say 4.3, but it's far easier still to just fill up on the older raiding content for 359s to have a better foot in, unless they plan on releasing more "in-between ilvl" dungeons to help compensate somewhere (like say Abyssal Maw with 365 loot). I suppose that's one flaw of not having separate loot for 10s and 25s anymore; as 25s were always a step ahead in ilvl, you could run/pug the last raiding tier's 25mans to get almost comparable loot to do whatever the current tier was as it was at worst half a step behind. And while I'm not completely against having to do heroics daily for some vp (as it can be an option if you miss out on a raid week), it is wrong you can get capped from doing them only without having to raid at all; at least pre 4.2 you had to do some raiding to meet the cap, but since the lowered the cap from 1240 or whatever to 980, now you can, which is lame.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby felhoof » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:14 am

For raiders (at least 25 man) the tokens were a huge annoying hurdle. They'd have to buy their T10 pieces that were so low in ilvl compared to what they could get that they wouldn't actually be using them until they could get them upgraded. So now you're not only running heroic dungeons to get points to buy gear, you're doing so in order to get gear you don't even want to use right away.

I realize you want everything to be purchaseable, but ICC's system was pretty crappy too - do you really want the option to get suboptimal tier gear? Is that your real desire?
But the point still being, you can get RNG-fucked and remain potentially 3/4 base t12 pieces well into heroic modes with no other options unless raggy or staghelm play nice.
I guess I don't see the big deal here. it's not like tier pieces for any spec or class make or break the class so badly that you need them. If you get RNG fucked, you get RNG fucked. Without that occasional problem there's no feeling of reward.

I do understand how frustrating it can be to wait on that one single piece and not get it. Believe me, I do. At the same time, it's just gear - and at no point in blizzard's history has gear been as unimportant (especially tier vs. not).

inally, I don't get your point on blizz not wanting people to run the older raids; doesn't the whole nerf of regular bwd, throne, and bot suggest they want people to still run them still, especially if some are dumb enough to not have cleared by now? And while I'm not completely against having to do heroics daily for some vp (as it can be an option if you miss out on a raid week), it is wrong you can get capped from doing them only without having to raid at all; at least pre 4.2 you had to do some raiding to meet the cap, but since the lowered the cap from 1240 or whatever to 980, now you can, which is lame.
They wanted people who hadn't gotten a chance to run the old raids to be able to. What they don't want to force a raid to do is after they've cleared content to go back and do old content because they have new recruits that can't perform at all in the new areas because they're so far behind. They want to make old content easy and puggable if people want, and new content accessible to anyone who has gone through a few heroic dungeons and done their rep grind.

Remember, tons of people start playing or start raiding (or return to raiding) mid-expansion. Those are those people who are 'dumb enough to not have cleared by now'. Blizzard used to punish those folks in the TBC days, and the end result was a lot of wasted high-end content as guilds just stopped going for new stuff or people couldn't get past T4. They aren't wanting that model, and that's probably an okay thing on some level.

As to the valor point cap, I'm so very thankful that you can cap via raiding only. That's the best model, period. As it stood if you were a raider you'd have to run heroics to cap every week, and that was beyond idiotic. The fastest way to get people burned out is to make them do something they don't want to do in order to do something they do want to do.

What does it matter if you can cap VP with heroics, anyway? Who does that hurt? It's not like they're going to be remotely competitive with raiders as far as personal power or gear score. It's not like their prestige is measured in their gear either; as you said, that's long past. What do you care if they can get tier gear? It's funny - you don't want to work hard or get screwed over via RNG for your gear but you're fine with others if you don't feel they've earned it.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby shinryu » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:05 pm

Right...I'm not sure how we both managed to go offtopic and chat about vp lol.

But as for whether ICC was good or not, I guess it depends on your raid perspective; I only did 10man raiding back then as well, supported by 25man pugs that might clear a wing or two. Plus have the base tier of 251 wasn't supoptimal, as either a 4p of it or mixed with some 264 tier was still heads over just 2p t10 in 264s and a mix of other 264 gear, unless a class's set bonus was exceptionally weak (or I guess if they were healer/tank). So I dunno, I was fine in my 251s while DPSing as a boomkin back then and still beating out everyone in 10 and 25mans, and that was back when boomkins were overall weaker unless you had room to use Starfall without attracting more adds, and back when you spammed spells to try to force Eclipse to proc. But again, guess it depended on what you mainly raided in back then.

And while you're right about tier bonuses not making or breaking a class, it does go a long way to help keeping up dps, and downing bosses along with keeping a raid spot; I guess that's an innate fear of mine, despite the fact I know I wouldn't likely ever be replaced.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Seizon » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:12 am

Hey i am new here and didint check much forums...but i have a question now with patch 4.2 should i go for hit and expertise cap?

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby ShmooDude » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:40 am

Seizon wrote:Hey i am new here and didint check much forums...but i have a question now with patch 4.2 should i go for hit and expertise cap?


If you have cat-like reflexes (pun intended!), you don't necessarily have to. For the rest of us, its recommended for keeping the rotation stable and not missing reapplications just before running out/switching targets. Most players find that its a DPS up for them (even though Sims would say otherwise).

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Goodmongo » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:18 pm

Below is from a Blue post about 4.2 changes. My question follows it.

Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Druid (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
We boosted Feral damage to compensate for their losing the attack power from Strength. Net DPS shouldn’t change much overall, though burst may be slightly higher. (We didn’t want to buff bleeds since that was a problem before in PvP.)
We cut back on the power of Innervates from Feral and Balance druids because we felt they were contributing to too much healer mana.
We changed several Balance druid mechanics to cut down on the damage they could do while moving in both PvP and PvE and to cut back on some of their strength in multi-dot fights in PvE. Furthermore, we felt like druids were spending too much time at one end or the other of the Eclipse bar by using dots rather than moving the bar back and forth as intended.
We toned down bear damage, because they were going to do more DPS than other tanks while tanking. Other changes were made to keep bears from neglecting certain core abilities.
We redesigned Restoration’s mastery because it was devalued in situations where druids did a lot of raid healing by HoT-ing different targets, especially in 25-player raids.


So here's my question. MEW and other runs indicate that the changes to feral are increases in PvE DPS from 5% up to around 9% or so. Yet this blue post says thaat overall dps for ferals shouldn't change much at all. If their intention was a wash and if MEW is correct where we actually have a nice buff do you think we'll be seeing the nerf bat in a hotfix soon?

BTW here is more from that blue post:

We understand that raw patch notes don’t always provide enough context for changes to the game, so we thought we’d take a moment to explain some of our logic behind the buffs and nerfs coming in the 4.2 “Rage of the Firelands” patch. We particularly want to try to combat the perception that classes end up nerfed in PvE as collateral damage from PvP nerfs (or vice versa). The number of PvP buffs versus PvP nerfs were about equal this time around, and we make careful consideration to keep the impact outside of PvP minimal. So, if we nerfed your class’s PvE damage, it’s most likely because we thought your class was doing too much damage in PvE.

No doubt you’ll disagree with some of our logic -- “But we were middle of the pack!” seems to be the common rebuttal these days. Balance is an art, though, not a science. (This topic probably deserves its own blog, but I’ll try to spell it out briefly.)

Balancing a Battleship
Player feedback certainly plays a role in our deciding to make balance changes, but it’s just one small part. (And remember that our public forums are not the only place where players voice their opinions.) We also do a lot of internal testing, both simulations and actual character performance, and we collect a lot of external data, which needs to include players at a wide variety of skill levels.

If a class is performing poorly except in the hands of one percent of the population, that’s a problem, but it’s not an excuse for that class to be overpowered when played by that one percent, especially in PvP. In PvP, your group composition (whether your whole Arena team or just the participants in a given fight in a Battleground) matters enormously. In PvE, the encounter specifics matter enormously (and we’re about to get a new cast of characters in Firelands). As a result, it can be challenging to decide which numbers are the right numbers. It doesn’t make sense to balance PvE damage solely around Patchwerk-style target dummies and assume everything else is a gimmick. Likewise it doesn’t make sense to buff and nerf for each individual encounter. (Say a boss buffs casters -- do you then nerf casters as a consequence?)

Also realize that we don’t believe in the existence of any single thermometer for estimating character performance. By that I mean there is no single relatively-accurate measurement of real and true DPS (or tanking, or healing) upon which most players agree. Everything from simulations to target dummy DPS to Arena comp percentages to the top 100 raid parses all count as pieces of the puzzle, and you really have to consider the totality of all of that information in the proper context.

Resto druids “win” healing meters now in part because their raid cooldown, Tranquility, shows up as healing. Warriors do well on Chimaeron because they take a lot of raid damage. Resto shaman heal well on Chimaeron because everyone is wounded all the time.) Yet once you start eliminating data -- “oh that’s a gimmick fight” or “oh, someone is inflating their meters by attacking an irrelevant target” -- you risk skewing the results.

Statistics is a complex business. That doesn’t mean all of this stuff is inherently unknowable and nobody should bother. It just means you have to be careful; the discussions about these topics are never short and simple. It's wise to be skeptical when anyone attempts to boil down conclusions on class balance to very simple declarations.

Simple Declarations
Having said that, we have a lot of ground to cover below, so some of these notes are going to be very terse by necessity. My apologies in advance.

General
We changed the way interrupts interact with spell schools. Our intent when we created dual school spells (like Mind Spike being Frost and Shadow) was to allow players locked out of one school to still have something to cast, and we now have the technology to deliver on that design. However, we maintained the rule that being interrupted while casting a dual-school spell will lock you out of both schools because we didn’t want players to only use those spells as a way of avoiding interruption.
We changed all heals to have 200% crits because we wanted to make crit a more attractive stat to healers. Anything random is already at a disadvantage when viewed by a healer, and one point of haste just flat out increased throughput more than a point of crit.
We removed the threat caused by buffs or crowd control because we wanted to make communication and coordination easier in dungeons, especially among strangers using Dungeon Finder. We want the challenge of a dungeon encounter to be the encounter mechanics, not marking targets. We also think this change will be a quality of life improvement for tanks, who inherited a lot of the responsibility for explaining fights, marking targets and otherwise setting the pace.
We changed the values of Agility for plate-wearers and Strength for leather-wearers to reinforce which type of armor you should be using and so we wouldn’t have to spend diminishing returns trying to balance tanks wearing non-traditional armor sets.

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Re: 4.2 changes

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:21 pm

I believe the more gear you have the better you made out from the changes. I was full 372 from last night and saw a marked improvment. If you are in 346 gear you likely will see a smaller improvement. If you look at the main page Alaron ran some numbers to show what type of increase to expect.

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