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Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

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Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby octechx » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:00 pm

*********************Necro due to spam bot. Please disregard this thead************************I wanted to get a topic started on how the changes for feral affect pvp. Being as they changes our burst i'm wonder if gemming agility and crit is more value now. Currently i try to gem mastery,hit,resil and spell pene. Could someone put some light on stats, glyphs an forging now, also trinket combo would be a nice topic too..

Currently 40% mastery
38.88% crit
4.5% hit rating
are my current pvp stats
Should i up the crit and lose the hit? or mastery?
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Konungr » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:53 pm

You should have 5% hit for PVP. Are you Spell Pen Capped?

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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby octechx » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:30 am

yes i'm spell pene capped.
My question is weighing crit vs mastery from a reforging and gemming standpoint
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Antioch » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:53 am

Providing you have enough resilience then you should be gemming almost pure agility already and continue to do so into patch 4.2. It's value is as high in pvp as it is in pve and it far surpasses reslience as a stat, providing you are getting your resilience elsewhere on gear. The only exception to this should be 2 50 sp pen gems.
As for mastery vs crit, mastery remains unchanged in its value in pvp. The only bleed nerf comes from the loss of ap from strenght so if you didn't run with a warrior/dk/shammy then your bleeds will remain the same.
The only other question you need to ask yourself is how much time do you get to spend on the target, if your lucky enough that all the people you fight will happily stand there and let you pound on them till they die then crit may start to surpass mastery, but in my experience i never had that luxury.
Finally....get your hit sorted, fast :)
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Andanas » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:02 pm

Antioch wrote:Providing you have enough resilience then you should be gemming almost pure agility already and continue to do so into patch 4.2. It's value is as high in pvp as it is in pve and it far surpasses reslience as a stat, providing you are getting your resilience elsewhere on gear. The only exception to this should be 2 50 sp pen gems.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but how much is enough resilience? I have 3423 resilience, and that's with 3 +67 res JC gems. Am I safe to swap out those +67 res gems for agility? Also, I thought to be spell pen capped it took the cloak enchant and 3 +50 spell pen gems. Is this not the case?

Also, can you recommend a good feral pvp spec? Ive been looking at sites like skill capped, and arena junkies, but haven't seen a 4.2 spec yet. Right now I'm just using my pve dps spec, but our guild is starting rated BG's this season. Plus myself and resto shammy guildie will be trying 2s.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Qbear » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:15 pm

Resil takes a huge DR at 3200. That doesn't mean it's worthless past that; however, point for point your most likely better off going full agi.

As for crit vs mastery it all really depends on your playstyle. Ferals play a lot like Rogues in the mindset of strong openers weak middle. If your forced to go bear keep in mind the crit for higher shred burst isn't much of a help. However, if you have a partner that can keep someone pretty still (frost mage) I could see crit being amazing to kill folks in deep freezes.

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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Antioch » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:26 pm

Also, can you recommend a good feral pvp spec?

With feral there is no really good cookie cutter spec, if you take a look at my spec on EU armory, that is probably the best spec i have been able to come with so far. The 2 points in Blood in the water are optional, its a very hit and miss talent, but when it works its amazing.
You could use these points in fury swipes instead( Nice talent when you can guarantee you can stay on a target) or should you be facing a lot of caster cleaves then i would reccommend using 2 in perseverance.
The only changes which really affect your talent decisions in 4.2 are the buff to FB which makes it amazing to use now, making Feral Aggression more valuable and the change to Natural Reaction which ups its dmg reduction to 18%. Natural Reaction was a talent skipped by a lot of the higher end ferals in arena but unless your one of those i would highly advise taking it. With the buff in dmg reduction i see it becomming a stable part of most feral pvp specs.

Finally if you are going to be doing rated bgs and are going to be playing as the flag carrier which due to Natural Reaction is extrememly viable you will also need to ensure you max out thick hide and perserverance. To do this you will most likely have to drop some dps talents, the 2 i have in blood in the water plus the 2 in Feral agression along with one from Furor and one from Stampede. It will hurt your burst a small bit but you will be a faceblocking beast :)
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Andanas » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:50 pm

This is what I've come up with for flag running in BG's. http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZfrMbRurzMszMcu. Is this good, or needs improvement? I think I also mentioned I'll be doing two's with a resto shaman. Granted I don't know how well that'll work out, but won't I want more burst than this spec offers?

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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Antioch » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:36 am

Unfortunately there is no one spec that will work well as both a flag carrier and a dps in arenas. Needing to take all the defensive abilities for flag carrying, leaves you at a heavy disadvantage especially in 2v2 where burst and timing that burst is king.
As a previously big pver and pvper ( i almost only do pvp now ) i spent a lot of time still respeccing despite duelspec for just this reason.

As for the flag carrying spec you have at the moment, it is pretty sound. I would make some minor adjustments though. Take the one point you have in blood and the water out ( wont be needing this while your sitting in bear trying to survive), one point out of stampede (minor loss on dps but you will gain it back) and one point of furor ( as flag carrier you dont tend to actively shapeshift as much as when your dps, and if you do its usually just to RUUUuuuuuuun Awaaaaaay ). Put these 3 saved points into King of the jungle, this is an essential talent no matter what spec you play.
Finally personally i would also drop Feral Agression and put those 2 points into endless carnage. More time on your rake and savage roar means less energy spent using it. This is not as essential as the first change but something that probably comes down to personal preference.

As for playing with a resto shammy, this is a great setup, played it some myself before i lost 20 games on the last day of the season messing about with a rogue mate :)
The key to playing with a resto is that you must bring all the burst and dmg that you safely can. Therefore using the same spec as you do for FCing is just not an option.
You will need something more along the lines of what i linked above EU armory

For some tips and tricks you can check out Pericth 3 - Feral Tutorial by Intentionly
Miirkat - How To Set Up Burst as a Feral
Feral Druid Patch 4.2 Changes (Hengest)
Miirkat, Zyback and Hengest are 3 failry notable ferals who all have their own channels on youtube and i would higly reccommend checking them out
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Andanas » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:48 pm

I've made the changes you recommended to my FC spec, and have this now: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZrrMckur ... :qM0r0im0z. Any comments on my glyph choices? I chose Mangle over Shred, because I'll be in bear form a lot, plus it can be difficult to Shred in PvP. The major ones I took with the idea of survivability. Feral Charge is there, because I didn't know what else to take.

You mentioned your spec as a burst spec, but after looking it over, it's very close to the FC spec I have. Is this the spec you were referring to? For all out DPS, this is what I've come up with: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZdrGfkzr ... :qM0firmc0. Any comments?

One thing I don't know is if I'll be doing any flag running, I haven't talked to my GM about it. Typically when we'd run randoms with like 3-5 of us, our resto druid would run the flag. I think he's in full Vicious, if not damn close. I only have the 5 main pieces of Vicious, everything else is Bloodthirsty, with 3220 Resilience. Would I still make a viable flag runner, or should I let someone better geared handle it?

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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Antioch » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:13 pm

Well first off , only having 5 or so pieces of vicious can be fixed in a day or 2 if you have the time and patience to run some random bg's as vicious gear can now be bought with honor points. Even with your current level of gear you should be fine to FC, thanks to the changes to bear.
When it come to running randomg bg's and rated bg's though, it is two completely different things. You will not get away with a resto flag carrier, no matter his resilience when you are doing rated bg's.
It will have to be a prot warrior, blood dk or feral druid, no ifs, buts, ands or maybes about it :)
You may get away with any random FC at very low rating but even then more than likely not.
Generally you will want one good FC, which feral is very good at and 1 or 2 defensive healers and 1 dps depending on how much pressure they are putting on you, you want 2 healers and everyone else going offensive.


The fc spec you have now looks good, glyph choice is pretty much what id use, the only possible problem is the Frenzied regen glyph, while its an amazing boost to healing, i find when i actually need the heals from it its when my healers are cc'd and with that glyph your rage is no longer converted to healing. This is down to personal choice i guess.

As for your burst spec, you absolutely must have 3 points in furor, if your not shapeshifting a lot when in arena (chucking out cc etc) then your not doing enough :) and if you are losing energy everytime you shift then you will never kill anything. This talent is a must have for feral pvp dps.
You can quite easily drop primal madness, its a very poor use of 2 talent points, even in pve where your guaranteed to be able to use the extra energy it grants, so in pvp its extremely poor. I would also drop at least 1 in Fury swipes and max out stampede, a free ravage is amazing for dps.
The rest then is up to you, i am currently experimenting with Blood in the water, previously having those 2 points in Fury swipes. Fury swipes is great when you can actually stay on your target but i found myself going up against some teams where i would do virtually no dmg with it (usually caster cleaves). With the buff to savage roar tho i may go back to swipes if Blood in the water doesnt work out.

Finally i went with Natural reaction because frankly it is now an amazing 18% damage reduction, when your healer is in a massive cc chain or you have 2 dps bearing down on you standing in the middle of a ring of frost, this talent will be a life saver. To get it however you will only be able to take either 2 in fury swipes or 2 in Blood in the water, not both :( this is the only place you really sacrifice burst but either way its not guaranteed burst and more RNG dmg. Again wether you take this talent or not really depends on wether you feel you need it or not. If your not dying while your healer is cc'd then you dont need it :)
Glyph choice seems fine, using mangle glyph over shred is a quality of life issue more than anything else. I personally use shred but i find im quite good at keeping behind my target and i also like that the extra rip time i get leaves me a little more free time to do other things with my combo points. (maim , ferocious bite, savage roar). If you cant stay behind your target however then mangle glyph is a very good 2nd choice.
Your major glyphs look good too, im not sure myself wether to go with the FB or pounce glyph. Whatever tickles your fancy i guess :)
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Andanas » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:24 pm

Thanks for all the advice. I'll go with the 2 specs I have now, and make adjustments when the season starts.

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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby octechx » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:13 pm

Sorry for the piss pour guide to my findings and lack of evidence to support my opinions, I'll continue to update this as we talk more and fill in the voids. I just wanted to get it on the forums before I lost it.

Table
m=mastery
c=crit
h=hit

I'm running around a 13.20 mastery rating and 37% crit and noticing a huge advantage in pvp. Reforging most crit to hit and most haste to mastery. I'm going to recommend Octechx 40/40/5 build for stats- I haven't exactly got it but i'm working very closely to get it.I would recommend this for any feral in pvp.

Meaning 40% mastery 40% crit and 5% hit- getting as close to this as possible by reforgeing/geming and enchanting items. Now to obtain this with merely pvp gear is unlikely you may need some new 4.2 peices and a trinket to make this happen. But if you can obtain a 40/40/5 stat build, you'll notice great burst. Remember to stay withing 3300-3800 resilence if possible.

Also good builds are
51m/27c/5h- mainly for bgs not so much arena unless you have an excellent healer- this is a drain build
42m/36c/4.20h- (keep in mind this focuses with 3600 or more resilence) is more focused on survival with this stat build you lose some dps but gemming for resil and enchanting resil makes for a good survival druid. I see this build alot in arena 3's with druids picking up thick hide and dropping Leader Of The Pack confusing the team as to who is the healer.. Then going bear and doing some decent numbers
40m/40c/5.15%H- This is an excellent stat build but it has some survival issues and it is not obtained without pve gear. So losing a lot of Resilence to gain 5% mastery and 5% crit subbing out your pvp dps trinket and weapon and cloak. 378 weapon,378 cloak and either essence of cyclone or unheeded warning for the agility, plus forging some crit to mastery . This is a very very high burst stat build and should allow you to shred though anything without a reset button, mages,palys ect... But its a bit more difficult to play, correct timings of barkskin, Survival instincts and putting range between you and your opposition after 5 point bleeds so you can pool energy for another feral charge rotation.

Also druids stop being bad save your bserk and trinket for burn phases and get the damn glyph its awesome!

I'll fill in the blank spots when i feel like i have some time to explain. I just re-read this and it all seems so random. Give me some time.
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Antioch » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:59 am

Just a quick note, that in 2 of your "builds" you have either less than 5% hit or more than 5% hit. Less than 5% hit is gonna cost you wins, guaranteed. Not getting that 5 cp rip up just before a mage blinks away or missing that maim etc will lose you a game.
On the other hand anything more than 5% hit is a waste of stats, you need to get as close as possible to 5% exactly (601 hit)

As for using UW or essence trinket, both are very good but the big problem for me with them is they are both procs, in a patchwerk style pve fight thats great but i find in pvp they will always proc when your nowhere near your target. It pained me every time i watched my UW proc tick away as i sat in a frost nova or was running away in bear form trying to stay alive.
Its all personal preference ofc but i much rather have burst when i know i want it. I have access to Hc Essence and UW but i chose to use the vicious on use agility trinket instead as it gives me burst when i need it and not just when all the stars align and tell me i have to :)
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Whitepaw » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:06 am

Antioch,

Did you change your name? Cant find you on Armory :(

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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby mekell » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:31 pm

His sig says hes on EU servers, so make sure you are looking there if you aren't already.
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Antioch » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:47 pm

I have changed, ive moved to a pvp server :) Outland pvp you can catch me under the new name of Melded
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby octechx » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:23 am

Anti has some valid points, but with my build I really love that extra passive agility from both an offensive and defensive standpoint, with the 378 weapon and I find my agility to scale very well. Also essence almost always procs on my first rotation allowing me to pull some crazy numbers right away. This is great for me because I can save bserker for burn phase, and still make my opponent pop survival CDs in the first 12 seconds. Just a different play style.

Also in my last posted I talked about using the 378 rep cloak for your 40/40/5 build it is not possible to hold enough resilience with that on, so switch back to your pvp cloak and reforge hit somewhere else.

Last thing I'd like to discuss is other peoples stat build and experience with it.
Mastery
Crit
Resilence
And agility

Also same info with trinket procs or other procs
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Re: Changes to burst-4.2 Questions and Answers

Postby Antioch » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:34 am

I must confess i have switched away from the resi trinket for the moment and gone back to unheeded warning, the potential burst is amazing. Of course as usual it never tends to proc when i actually need it but it is great when it does.
One thing to remember when you play with procs in mind is pooling energy, it is a dps gain in pve and as such is exactly the same in pvp. You just need to ensure you keep rip/rake up and unlike pve savage roar is not as important. Despite the buff to it i only use it get predatory strikes procs when im too far away from a target to apply rip or when an instant cc is needed.
You should always attempt to play with your energy above 50 if possible, this way you will always have enough energy for an interrupt and if burst is needed (trinket proc) your ready for it.

As for stat discussion im quite curious about this too. I really dont think there can be any argument about how good agility is and as such i gem in all my red/prismatic slots for agility, in pvp i like to keep the socket bonuses or the resilience ones at least so i tend to gem agility mastery in yellow, with 2 50 spell pen in 2 of the blue slots and Agi+hit in the last one.

Since patch 4.2 i have however been wondering about the value of crit for us. Haste is still nowhere on our pvp radar but with all the buffs to our direct dmg all those big juicy Ravage, Shred and FB crits can be game breakers. The only problem i see with stacking it is when you are unable to stay on your target, mastery clearly beats crit.
I dont think there is any best secondary stat but more than that, it depends heavily on your playstyle. If you can spend as much time as possible on your target then crit will increase in value or if you play some sort of cleave where you plan on killing people in globals then crit would again be great (playing with a rogue and killing in smokebomb)
I do believe the longer games go on the more value mastery plays as in general it will still grant more sustained dmg output.
I'd love to say that either stat is definitely the best but i think the best thing we can do is try stacking both and see which plays better with your ow personal style.

EDIT :- All of these points are purely educacted guess work, based in no small part on pve dps output and my own personal experience in applying those results to a pvp scenario.
I'm no theorycrafter and unfortunately i have yet to come across any good feral theory crafters who does so purely for pvp.
There is some fairly renowned ones out there who cover rogues , mages, dk's etc but still no feral.
I guess feral is one of those classes where there is no clearcut right and wrong, we have so many potential things we can do based on any situation and i guess it all comes down to going with your gut.
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