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Haste > Mastery tier 12?

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Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby emotionel » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:29 pm

So i finally managed to get 2 pieces of tier 12
now my question is, how does this change my reforgeing?
ive read on mihirs guide that haste would start pulling slight ahead now
but stalking him and other druids aswell it seems they are still clinging to their mastery?

link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/z ... l/advanced
ive went to get abit of hit and exp and from there ive left alone my reforging seeing i
dont know where to go next.

any help or explanation is appriciatet (:

a fellow fire cat

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:55 pm

In a patchwork style fight (100% up time on the boss, 0 movment) haste will pull ahead of all other secondary stats. However its not by very much (less then 150 dps vs hit/exp mastery builds). The reason you see a lot of Ferals still going with the mastery heavy sets it 2 fold.

1. Most ferals are keeping 2p T11 until 4p T12 is aquired. 2p is a 5% buff to rake which is still at least 20% of our damage total. Mastery still helps this quite a bit. When you drop 2p T11 then mastery will become slightly less valuable.

2. Any fight with down time (Ali, Beth, Rag), or lots of target switching (Ali, Beth, Rhyolith, Rag) will favor Hit/Exp + Mastery over haste. Bleeds still keep doing damage during target swaps as you get new bleeds going, and keep ticking when a target gets out of range. Haste helps with energy regen, but if you are inactive for 3-7 seconds you will be energy capped and gain no more benifit from haste.

Because the difference between the 2 builds is so little for a patchwork style fight and much bigger for the down time/target switching bosses that it is logical to go with the Hit/Exp + Mastery builds. It also is much more forgiving of mistakes.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Stenhaldi » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:56 pm

Any AoE portion of a fight (such as Beth'tilac, Rhyolith, and normal Ragnaros) will favor haste (after hit/exp cap).

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Konungr » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:07 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:Any AoE portion of a fight (such as Beth'tilac, Rhyolith, and normal Ragnaros) will favor haste (after hit/exp cap).


Ragnaros has no AoE, not in the traditional sense. You need at least 3 targets to make using Swipe worth the Energy, Rag doesn't have 3 targets within Swipe range, so.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:23 pm

Konungr wrote:
Stenhaldi wrote:Any AoE portion of a fight (such as Beth'tilac, Rhyolith, and normal Ragnaros) will favor haste (after hit/exp cap).


Ragnaros has no AoE, not in the traditional sense. You need at least 3 targets to make using Swipe worth the Energy, Rag doesn't have 3 targets within Swipe range, so.

In 25 man during P2 the fire seeds produce 20 small adds that need to be quickly aoe'd down before the next hammer smash. This happens a few times before P3, however it is such a very small part of the fight, it is hardly worth reforging for.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:51 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:Any AoE portion of a fight (such as Beth'tilac, Rhyolith, and normal Ragnaros) will favor haste (after hit/exp cap).

With Beth'tilac and Rag the AOE phases are not very long and do not make up a lage % of the fight. Right now for Rhyolith I just can't see focusing your full attention on the fragments. As it is as much dps is needed on the boss to get him low enough for the burn phase. Sure full time swiping on the frags makes your DPS look good, but isn't really benefiting your raid very much.

Now if we were like mages and could do great aoe then swap back to single target with no issue I would say go for it, but our trasition between the two is bumpy to say the least.

In general I haven't seen a lot of gain by reforging for AOE portions of a fight over reforging for a tier in general.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Konungr » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:02 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
Konungr wrote:
Stenhaldi wrote:Any AoE portion of a fight (such as Beth'tilac, Rhyolith, and normal Ragnaros) will favor haste (after hit/exp cap).


Ragnaros has no AoE, not in the traditional sense. You need at least 3 targets to make using Swipe worth the Energy, Rag doesn't have 3 targets within Swipe range, so.

In 25 man during P2 the fire seeds produce 20 small adds that need to be quickly aoe'd down before the next hammer smash. This happens a few times before P3, however it is such a very small part of the fight, it is hardly worth reforging for.


Oh yeah, I totally forget about those. I barely get out 2 maybe 3 swipes before they are all dead from my raid's AoE. Either way, It's still not reason enough to change up Hit/Exp > Mastery to Hit/Exp > Haste.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Floofles » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:24 pm

Eh whatever you like, go for that.

I think mastery is better for heroic ragnaros and I frankly couldn't give a toss about the other fights. Sure, baleroc you might get more mileage out of reforging some other way or whatever but ultimately luck will dictate how that works out for you.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Morghan » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:58 am

Curious cause when I choose Hit/Exp cap model in AskMrRobot it values haste at more than mastery for me right now. Still in reg 2T11 359 gear range too.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Konungr » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:41 pm

Morghan wrote:Curious cause when I choose Hit/Exp cap model in AskMrRobot it values haste at more than mastery for me right now. Still in reg 2T11 359 gear range too.



wowreforge.com was doing the same before I had a chat with the moderator.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Morghan » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:09 am

Anyone know the moderator of AskMrRobot then ? :D

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Konungr » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:04 am

Morghan wrote:Anyone know the moderator of AskMrRobot then ? :D



No, but I will see what I can do.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Wildhoney » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:55 am

Hey guys,
I'm really sorry for ninjaing the topic, but it's the closest thing when it comes to "subjects" im interested in. I would have written in "Need help" topic, but it is inactive for more then a year, so i kinnda felt bad about it. I would appreciate any help i can get and i appologise for the wall of text incoming.

Here it goes:

I've been playing my druids as resto for ages, and i'm very good at it. My offspec is feral, and altho i really enjoy playing it, and doing "good" dps (better then the other healers by leaps and miles, and better then quite a few main spec dps-ers), i'm the last person in raid that would be asked to dps if there's 20 healers signed for a raid. It's not a "bad" thing, and i appreciate the confidence, but sometimes i'd rather be pew pewing, especially when i see people doing 13,14,15k dps. I've been lucky enough with the feral gear tho, since we have 1 or 2 rogues in the raid at most, and i get by when it comes to weapons/ trinkets / rings / necks, i usually get what i want after a while.

Even tho i hardly get to dps in raid, i practice a lot on the raider training dummy, whenever im bored (3 min tests) and also do guild runs to za/zg as feral. Also, spend a lot of time reading forums (EJ especially), but as you may have noticed there's a huge difference in quality betwean resto and feral topics. Basically, "feral" topic on EJ confuses the sh1t out of me.

For example. Pre 4.2 there was a clear msg that hit and exp are not that important for feral, but reforging to them, i noticed a substantial dps increase (on the dummy). From that point, i kinnda took everything there with a pinch of salt.

Nowdays, there's nothing in peticular about secodnary stats. Quote from EJ: "So until further investigations find a more meaningful hierarchy of secondary stats feel free to set these up however you like."

I kinnda use Rawr and SimC, but that doesn't make me quite happy since im not really sure how accurate they are, and i'd love the input from the people who actually actively play as Feral and strive to use it to the full potential (experience is the king in my book).

Anyways,

What i did basically, is Reforging Crit and Haste to (1)Hit-(2)Exp-(3)Mastery. Original reason for reforging to hit and exp caps is that i really hate to see "miss" and "dodge" messages when attacking from behind. After i noticed the increase in dps, i kinnda sticked to it. At first, my reforges were messed up, i had a bit more haste, and a bit less Mastery - but capped with hit and exp. Some time have passed, and then i payed a visit to wowreforge, reforged all my gear, and i "feel" that i lost a bit in dps (~0.5 - 1.5k on the dummy), eventho i gained some mastery and lost some haste.


I'm not that experienced in feral, and i feel kinnda lost, hence the reason i'm writting here.


This are my stats self buffed (MoTw - Kitty form):

4.49% haste (575 rating) - i feel somewhat that this is very low
18.12 Mastery (1815 rating)
40.19% crit (10 stacks of river of death)
16239 ap
+8.00% Hit
+26 Exp

Here is the link to my character: http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/ ... wildhoney/ - wow-heroes in case i log out in resto gear, since my offspec is cashed... it's easy to see my offspec gear by clicking on the Feral spec.

Do i need to reforge differently? Can you see something wrong with gear/gems/chants/reforges.... anything really, im open to suggestions. Also, my spec is somewhat hybrid-ish cause of the Thick Hide. I like being uncrittable for some crazy reasons. Saved the day quite a few times after unexpected tank deaths in za/zg, and got to tank adds at maloriak a few times, as well as some drakes at halfus when we lacked tanks. Im open to suggestions if the stompede & predatory strikes are really worth taking.

I'd really like to "shine" when i finally get to dps in raid enviroment. Punting people that they just got outdps-ed by a healer with an offspec is priceless in my book - also i hope it can be motivational for them :)

Thanks in advance,
Wild.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Konungr » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:07 am

@Wildhoney

Hit/Exp > Mastery > Crit/> Haste is a very viable reforging strategy, one of the top profiles for a variety of fights. You can see my compilation of test results from this thread on the WoW Druid Forums: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2592641963 .

Using wowreforge.com will help you set up your reforges to perfectly hit cap and prioritize Mastery > Crit > Haste so that you aren't over/under the caps drastically. If you decide to use wowreforge.com, there is an addon called Reforerade which is very light-weight and works with wowreforge to reforge all of your gear for you in a matter of seconds.

Also, keep in mind that EJ has never, and probably will never, be the best source of information as far as Feral is concerned. Their information is usually a bit behind the curve and quite often inaccurate. I have never used SimC, most Ferals use Mew, a tool specifically created for Feral Kitty.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:54 pm

Hi Wildhoney. Welcome to the community.

To explain about why EJ's forums shunned hit/exp early on in Cata (even now) requires some background. When Cata first hit Mastery was new and shiny and what ended up happening was that 60-65% of our damage on a patchwork fight would come from bleeds. Based on Sim work it was found that between so much of our damage not being able to miss and with the energy refund for missed/dodged/parried attacks hit/exp would be a dps loss as mastery could have taken their place.

The Sims run at the start of Cata suffered from a few things. First they were built around Patchwork style fights (ie no movement and 100% uptime on the boss). As we all saw in T11 there just wern't that many (if any) fights. Second was the assumption of perfect play. Most of us playing just arn't machines and we make mistakes. While we arn't punished for quite as much as we were back in ICC it still hurts our dps a bunch if a mistake is made.

When 4.0.6 rolled around and cut our bleed damage by 10% for both Rip and Rake, and buffed Mangle, Ravage, and Shred. Mastery was still king and Sims still said that Hit/Exp was a dps loss. In practice this was true however a bad run of misses at a critical time (like bleed refreshes right before a target swap) would hurt a lot. A few ferals (some from around here) started to ask the question "How much will this really hurt my dps to remove some of the randomness from the rotation". As it turns out the difference in the Sims between hit/exp capped and none at all was very minor (only a few hundred dps). However in practice smoothing the rotation out turned out to be a big boost to a lot of us less than perfect players. While the maximum damage was lower than max mastery it ended up being way more consistent.

Skip forward to today. Now Sims give a slight edge to Haste and Crit over Mastery/Hit/Exp in Patchwork fights. However as we know there just arn't that many of those fights. Mechanics being what they are still tend to work better with the setup you have now (Hit/Exp Mastery).

The reforges you have now are just fine. The DPS loss you may have felt could be complete RNG. Just last week we had a feral ask in our Gear and Execution thread how he managed to get gear upgrades but did less dps then the week before. It turned out that Crit played a huge factor. He had 10% more of his attacks crit then the following week. It also could just be the difference between a bleed taking longer to get up due to fewer combo points. If you have some logs you want me to look at you can post em up in the Gearing and Execution thread and I can have a look and give more targeted advise.

Gearing and spec wise I have a few suggestions:
Gearing - You should swap out your cloak enchant for 22 agility. I know its the last expantion but 22 agi still gives better benifits then 50 Crit rating. Also you should swap out your boot enchant for 35 agility. The runspeed portion of the current enchant does not stack with Feral Swiftness (30% run speed in cat). The only time you would see the benefit would be in Caster or Bear form and you likely won't find yourself needing to run faster while in those forms.

Gemming - Perfect.

Spec - While the Thick Hide is really cool in a "Hero Bear" situation it is a very corner case. In most "Oh god the tank died, go bear save the day" situations you won't be tanking for very long. Pretty much you are about to win, or about to wipe. If you use the Barkskin glyph (25% less chance to get crit) you will still be uncritable for 12 seconds vs PVE foes. This would let you pick up Stampeed and put 1 point in Predatory Strikes. The second point for Predatory Strikes can come from Furor. Most dps situations we won't be shifting for very long, and hopefully you won't be doing it while over 60% energy so it won't make a huge impact. Having Stampeed and Predatory Strikes make for awesome openers. For 10 energy you can get a free ravage hit which will likely give you 2 combo points and hit really hard. This is a very powerful tool for target switches and openers as it helps get your rotation going that much faster for very little energy.

When you pratice on the dummies try to go past 6 minutes at least and make use of all 3 available Berserks. As most boss fights this tier go between 6-12 minutes it is better to be able to practice for the expected full duration of the fight. This also will let you see what happens to your dps over a longer duration if you do make a mistake.

I know big wall of text to match yours, but I hope it gave you some insite and some assistance with your questions. If you have more feel free to let me know.
Keep on Shredding (Rejuv is nice and all, but come on the wild side is more fun)

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Evil » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:05 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Gearing and spec wise I have a few suggestions:
Gearing - You should swap out your cloak enchant for 22 agility. I know its the last expantion but 22 agi still gives better benifits then 50 Crit rating.


Thats not right - you forgot about the 65 Crit on backs http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74247/enchant-cloak-greater-critical-strike. I changed 22 Agi to 65 Crit because its a dps gain.

Evil

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:34 pm

Evil wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:Gearing and spec wise I have a few suggestions:
Gearing - You should swap out your cloak enchant for 22 agility. I know its the last expantion but 22 agi still gives better benifits then 50 Crit rating.


Thats not right - you forgot about the 65 Crit on backs http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74247/enchant-cloak-greater-critical-strike. I changed 22 Agi to 65 Crit because its a dps gain.

Evil


65 crit rating gives:
0.3626% crit

22 agi gives:
0.0677226% crit
63 ap (raid buffed) [55 ap (self buffed)]

As AP effects every single attack we do crit or not, I doubt that .3% additional crit is going to come out on top here.

If you look at it in the most simplest way, assume 1 point of agility is worth 3 (66) times 1 point of crit (65). The cloak enchant is not worth it.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Ammiel » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:43 pm

At some gear levels 65 crit will be stronger than 22 agi but we're talking about a
difference of ~0-2 dps and most of the time 22 agi will be the better one.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Wildhoney » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:15 am

Thank you very much guys, especially Tinder for the detailed explanation. That was exactly what i was looking for.

Cheers!
Wild.

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Re: Haste > Mastery tier 12?

Postby Evil » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:25 am

Ammiel wrote:At some gear levels 65 crit will be stronger than 22 agi but we're talking about a
difference of ~0-2 dps and most of the time 22 agi will be the better one.


Thats totaly right - right now for me personaly 65 Crit is a little bit stronger than the 22 Agi enchant. But we are talking about a 3-4 dps gain/loss only. It depends on the gear and reforgement you have, of course. I'm a maxomatic ^^ - and so I take any dps gain I could get.

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