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Bloodlust/Time Warp

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Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby BoldTM » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:48 pm

Have not seen it said anywhere but is bloodlust/time warp changing anything in our rotation? Should we wait TF and Berserk so its cast during Bloodlust? I am currently doing Baleroc 10 HM and going with 3 healers we need the extra bit dps to get him down. We will BL quite early, like after 15-20 second and i was wondering if i should wait going berserk for the BL.

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Orka » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:06 pm

Hellow,
I was wondering the same thing about syncing BL and Berserk... Here's the current state of my thinking so far:
-Given that BL increases our melee speed by 30%, the only consequence I could think of so far was a higher number of Ooc procs. What I am not sure about is whether the BL buff only applies to attack speed or if it is a haste rating x1.3 multiplier, hence also modifying our energy regeneration. Our normal GCD already lasts 1sec, right? And this 1 sec duration is incompressible if I remember correctly?
-Considering that Berserk reduces the cost of all our cat form abilities by 50%, any Ooc proc basically overpasses the berserk buff (100% energy cost reduction>50% energy cost reduction). If one wants every second of Berserk to be useful, any Ooc proc could then be seen as a waste of the Berserk buff. If BL does actually increase the number of Ooc procs inside a given time period, maybe Berserk should not be cast at the same time.
But frankly, i'd be very surprised if we were a class for which BL represented an inconvenience. I must be missing something important.
O.

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Kojo » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:16 pm

By the wording it shouldn't but according to the stat panel it does hasten energy regen.

I don't worry too much about lining berserk up with bloodlust.

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Aurea » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:03 am

in my opinion it's more important to have as much of your prepot as possible in the heroism/bloodlust time. if you use the ancient petrified seed trinket it gets even better :]
always try to stack as much of you cooldowns as possible on each other.

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Leafkiller » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:10 am

Bloodlust/Heroism does increase energy regen - but not by much.

The math around energy regen is as follows:
128 haste rating is about 1% haste. Your energy regen rate = (1+haste/100) * 10.

As an example, my current gear setup has 931 haste rating or 7.27% haste.

(1 + 7.27/100) * 10 = 10.727 energy per second.

With Bloodlust/Heroism, it becomes:

(1 + 7.27*1.3/100) * 10 = 10.9451 energy per second.

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Orka » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:41 am

Thanks for the math Leaf. What about Ooc procs? I read it had a 3.5PPM probability. Is this just an average, or does it have some sort of internal cooldown? Was my assumption about BL enabling more Ooc procs correct?
Given the duration of Berserk and that I personally get ooe pretty quickly, I could see an Ooc proc as an opportunity to at least get 1 free GCD long energy pooling. BL would then help benefiting from the full duration of Berserk without getting ooe, as it provides slightly more energy regen, and possibly more Ooc procs.

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Konungr » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:49 am

I appreciate the math leaf, but I do have to question its entire validity. It's been a while, but I once had my character sheet open while during Berserk and the Energy Regen said somewhere along the lines of ~13.234. This is not significant in itself, except for the fact that I have never Haste stacked or had any buffs that increase Energy Regen (Damn you Hunting Party for not working right).

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Orka » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:21 pm

Could it be possible that the x1.3 multiplier actually impacts the whole regen rate instead of just our haste portion ?
i.e: [(1 + 7.27/100) * 10 ] * 1.3 = 13.9451 energy per second
?
If this were to be true, then if we reverse the formula to find your haste percentage at the time you mentioned Konungr, it would give a 1.8% haste, hence 230.6 haste rating. Is it possible you were at that level at that time ?

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Leafkiller » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:11 pm

I looked through the Mew code* and they are multiplying the heroism times the entire equation - so the proper equation is what Orka wrote.

So for my current gear, my energy regen goes from 10.727 to 13.9451. The energy increase per second is 3.2181. Over 40 seconds that is an extra 128.724 energy (I am not sure how rounding comes into play so that may be a little off). As a side note this suggests that my Ovale code for Alysrazor is not as aggressive as it should be since a full stack would triple energy regen and you would never run out.

Melee swing interval is calculated by dividing base swing speed by haste and any other melee haste multipliers (for example the 10% you get from Windfury totem).

Base weapon speed for a cat is 1.0 (at least that is my understanding). Assuming the presence of Windfury and Heroism, we get the following:

Weapon speed: 1.0
Haste: (1 + 7.27/100) * 1.3 (heroism)
melee haste multiplier 1.1 (10% for Windfury)

1.0 / ((1 + 7.27/100) * 1.3)/ 1.1 = .65 seconds (vs. .847 seconds without heroism).

You do get more white attacks during heroism, which increases the likelihood of getting OOC procs.
==============================================

To better answer the question of how important it is to lineup heroism with berserk, specific sim work would be in order (which I do not have time to do - I have already spent too much time on this...). I can tell you that the Mew script used to have heroism at the end. When I was working on my Atramedes code, I moved the heroism to the front of the script, and accidentally left it that way in the base script when I was working on the 4.2 code. When Yawning reconciled my script with the base script, he noticed the difference and found that having heroism at the start of the script was about a 100dps increase over having it at the end of the script - which is surprising since dps increases significantly during BitW. Clearly that was a function of having heroism up with all possible cooldowns (the script assumes pre-potting and most of the procs will go off in the first few seconds of a fight) and the script will cast Berserk with the first TF in the first few seconds of the fight.

I honestly do not know how important it is to have Berserk as one of the cooldowns that coincides with the heroism. I am guessing the most important factor is to overlap as many buffs/procs as possible when either of those are up - so having them up at the same time allows you to also have your potion up along with any other on use procs.

In general, on a fight where there is an early heroism, it would be best if it happened in the first 5-10 seconds of the fight (not 15-20 seconds as the original poster said his guild does) in order to overlap it with as many buffs/procs as possible, and as a player we want to use everything we can at that point including berserk. As for other berserks, they should be lined up with procs, the in combat potion, and buffs as much as possible - taking into account fight length. Since Baleroc takes less than 6 minutes, at most you will get 2 Berserks.



* I am basing the math in this post on the premise that Yawning, Tangedyn, Toskk and the other contributors to Mew figured out this out a long time ago...

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:35 pm

Leafkiller wrote:When Yawning reconciled my script with the base script, he noticed the difference and found that having heroism at the start of the script was about a 100dps increase over having it at the end of the script - which is surprising since dps increases significantly during BitW. Clearly that was a function of having heroism up with all possible cooldowns (the script assumes pre-potting and most of the procs will go off in the first few seconds of a fight) and the script will cast Berserk with the first TF in the first few seconds of the fight.


Bloodlust within "execute" range does not increase overall DPS relative to using it at any other point in the fight. The additional damage due to stacking with "execute" talents is exactly countered by the fact that the bloodlust makes the "execute" range shorter (to first approximation - this assumes all classes benefit from haste equally). The math is relatively simple but is covered in some detail here.

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Yawning » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:19 pm

Leafkiller wrote:* I am basing the math in this post on the premise that Yawning, Tangedyn, Toskk and the other contributors to Mew figured out this out a long time ago...


If by "a long time ago" you mean "when the pre-cata patch hit live servers" then yes. There's a non-zero chance that the formulas I came up with for how haste affects energy regen are incorrect but it's unlikely that's the case.

Stenhaldi wrote:Bloodlust within "execute" range does not increase overall DPS relative to using it at any other point in the fight. The additional damage due to stacking with "execute" talents is exactly countered by the fact that the bloodlust makes the "execute" range shorter (to first approximation - this assumes all classes benefit from haste equally). The math is relatively simple but is covered in some detail here.


The sim doesn't do that though. So what Leafkiller says about the differential being due to Berserk/Procs is true (the 2nd pot will happen during Heroism, Berserk and various trinket procs are not guaranteed to be stacked. It's reasonably trivial to change, but I haven't bothered since the script by default uses heroism early). It's entirely up to the user to adjust the Blood in the Water duration slider to a proportion that is appropriate for the encounter that they are examining (I could make it dynamic, but it would be equally non-realistic since there's more to "what determines boss DTPS" than a single feral druid in practice.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Leafkiller » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:22 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:Bloodlust within "execute" range does not increase overall DPS relative to using it at any other point in the fight. The additional damage due to stacking with "execute" talents is exactly countered by the fact that the bloodlust makes the "execute" range shorter (to first approximation - this assumes all classes benefit from haste equally). The math is relatively simple but is covered in some detail here.


That is not the case in the Mew sims we were doing where the execute phase was set to 1 minute 15 seconds and bloodlust/heroism was occurring with exactly 40 seconds left in the fight. In other words, in the Mew sims bloodlust/heroism does not change the length of the execute phase.

From the perspective of a feral, bloodlust/heroism has three effects.

One is to increase white damage. This is not affected by the execute range.

A second effect is to increase OOC procs. This will result in more potential combo points which should contribute to the execute phase.

The third effect is to increase energy regen - providing approximately 3 additional yellow attacks (outside of Berserk) which will provide some additional combo points and help the execute phase.

Feral DPS is higher during BitW. From Mew on a recent version of my toon I get the following:
DPS (> 25%): 26531.03808
DPS (< 25%): 27954.07042

Getting the DPE from FB is worth more and the extra combo points will benefit that - so heroism will help yellow attacks more during BitW. Reading through the post you linked, there are some assumptions which are questionable. What is clear is that bloodlust is worth more if you can stack it with cooldowns - which is much easier at the start of the fight.

*edit - Yawning posted while I was writing this, so some of it is repetitive.

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Re: Bloodlust/Time Warp

Postby Konungr » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:33 am

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