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Majordomo Staghelm

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby shinryu » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:18 pm

Honestly if someone can't give a 2 second glance at your screen to see what the initial seed time is in the default frame before getting at least a general ideal of when to move later on, I'd say they're a baddie...

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby adianar » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:05 pm

First downing of Stag and no Kitty stuff at all. Sad soon to be fire kitty... The FFF and rake suggestion seemed to be a good one. I wasn't able to get enough cp's on stag before he lept away for rake much. When i did, i was totally energy starved for the next spawned kitty. i think im missing a finesse thing here timing the spawns and Stag to keep rake and rip up during cat phase.

Anyone have any particulars for that piece of cat dance?

FYI 10 man reg with a DK and I in melee. No one else is on the cat spawns unless we call for assistance...

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Sorcerer » Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:46 pm

Working on the heroic domo.

What's is the damn mechanic of the spirit of the flame?
First night they would switch on me regardless if I did not touch them, even when tank had stable threat on it, i.e when spirit was below 50% and I did 0 damage to it.
Result = Deaths

I did ticket GM and the response was that development team is working on resolving spirit of the flame bug/issue with random switching to a DPS. It is well known that GMs often don't have a clue what is going on so I better recieve some info here.

However next night it looked like little cats were going first for the person that was second highest on the threat list on Majordomo.
I wasn't the only one dying that night for that reason from the melee.
It is hard to tell me particular threat levels since im using elvui and I did forget to change skada to show threat, but maybe someone could explain the mechanic or just confirm my idea?

If my idea is correct, do you counter random melee deaths by having 2 tanks or Tricking/MDing a range caster to maintain a range class 2nd highest on threat list to give some time to grab spirits? Currently we are using 1 tank and tactic: 1 Scorpion - 7 cats.
It looks also that 1 tank is not enough to keep the threat no matter of what, 2 tanks would give literally unlimited threat ceiling with chain taunting on domo increasing the ceiling all the time. Is 2 Tanks the way to go with not enough rogues (running 2 rogues + 2-3 hunters atm)?

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Mitty » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:15 am

@ Wicks (sorry I am late to the party):

I noticed this in one response to your raid Rx efforts:

What he is asking, IIAC, is how he can use World of Logs to tell whether a Scythe initiated a kill on a Seed, which then killed everyone, which means it would be a healing problem, or whether it was someone not paying attention and letting seed explode due to its duration, which would be a mechanics/raider-in-general problem.


If the issue is the scythe killing someone which triggered their seed, the above quote is correct in that it absolutely could be a healing problem. Four our early attempts, though, it was more of a problem of people not getting back in front of domo after running out to detonate seeds. If people don't get back quickly enough, there are not enough people in front to share the scythe attack, so you get some gibs and then their seeds go off. Without enough people to share the scythe, your healers don't have a chance.

So, before jumping on your healers, emphasize getting back quickly. Many in our raid were running out too far for seed explosion - 12 yards is really not very far - and couldn't get back in time. The /12 range indicator is useful if you are running that.

Just something else to consider, especially if you have confidence in your healers.

Mitty

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Konungr » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:35 am

Mitty wrote:
If the issue is the scythe killing someone which triggered their seed, the above quote is correct in that it absolutely could be a healing problem. Four our early attempts, though, it was more of a problem of people not getting back in front of domo after running out to detonate seeds. If people don't get back quickly enough, there are not enough people in front to share the scythe attack, so you get some gibs and then their seeds go off. Without enough people to share the scythe, your healers don't have a chance.

So, before jumping on your healers, emphasize getting back quickly. Many in our raid were running out too far for seed explosion - 12 yards is really not very far - and couldn't get back in time. The /12 range indicator is useful if you are running that.


The encounter, and damage of the scythe, is designed/balanced to have 7 or 18 (25man) people soaking cleave, which means that up to 3/7 melee or seeds can be behind or running seed and the raid still be fine. Otherwise, Staghelm goes all firecrotch and starts hopping around like lil' bunny fu-fu.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Dysheki » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:50 pm

Sorcerer wrote:Working on the heroic domo.

What's is the damn mechanic of the spirit of the flame?
First night they would switch on me regardless if I did not touch them, even when tank had stable threat on it, i.e when spirit was below 50% and I did 0 damage to it.
Result = Deaths


Basically the most frustrating part of the encounter for me. They are supposed to target whoever has the highest threat on Staghelm (i.e. the tank). However the cats love to attack random strangers that are high on threat (even though Staghelm himself will NEVER look at these people, only the cats do). What sucks is that even if you survive a hit from the cats you lose all of your concentration. I've thrown my keyboard being killed from a cat when cowering on cooldown. Excuse my language but it's fucking dumb.
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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby sellyne » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:45 pm

Is anyone else having significant agro issues on hard mode Majordomo? I'm using cower over a dozen times per full attempt.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Konungr » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:58 pm

sellyne wrote:Is anyone else having significant agro issues on hard mode Majordomo? I'm using cower over a dozen times per full attempt.



If you don't have Rogues/Hunters MD/ToT'ng on CD, you are going to. You have a 100% increased damage buff that doesn't (for whatever reason) ignore threat (Queen from ICC comes to mind, getting the 100% buff would make you not gain threat).

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby sellyne » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:16 am

Konungr wrote:
sellyne wrote:Is anyone else having significant agro issues on hard mode Majordomo? I'm using cower over a dozen times per full attempt.



If you don't have Rogues/Hunters MD/ToT'ng on CD, you are going to. You have a 100% increased damage buff that doesn't (for whatever reason) ignore threat (Queen from ICC comes to mind, getting the 100% buff would make you not gain threat).


FIRST OF ALL, TotT and MD are not genuine agro. We don't use TotT and MD on CD after the initial pull, because as soon as those drop, the tank loses that extra agro. I'm sure you know that already. We do use them on particularly difficult Spirit of the Flame spawns when DPS have shot over the tank's agro (because they adopt the current agro table of Domo as soon as they spawn). We try to get the mages maxed on agro with images (>130%) and having the tank use taunt after that. The only practical ability to reduce my agro is salv.

Also, I'm guessing you have not done this on hard mode, or you would not have given me such a simple answer. I'm well aware of how the mechanics work, and I'm pretty sure I have more hard mode experience than you. My main concern is with gaining agro from Spirits of the Flame, who seem to be shifty on their agro if I'm at 90% agro or higher (again, because they adopt Domo's agro table). During 2nd and 3rd berserk, things get spicy to say the least. I was curious what other ferals are doing to counter this aside from cower. Other ferals on IllidanUS have similar issues it seems.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Konungr » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:35 am

sellyne wrote:
Konungr wrote:
sellyne wrote:Is anyone else having significant agro issues on hard mode Majordomo? I'm using cower over a dozen times per full attempt.



If you don't have Rogues/Hunters MD/ToT'ng on CD, you are going to. You have a 100% increased damage buff that doesn't (for whatever reason) ignore threat (Queen from ICC comes to mind, getting the 100% buff would make you not gain threat).


FIRST OF ALL, TotT and MD are not genuine agro. We don't use TotT and MD on CD after the initial pull, because as soon as those drop, the tank loses that extra agro. I'm sure you know that already. We do use them on particularly difficult Spirit of the Flame spawns when DPS have shot over the tank's agro (because they adopt the current agro table of Domo as soon as they spawn). We try to get the mages maxed on agro with images (>130%) and having the tank use taunt after that. The only practical ability to reduce my agro is salv.

Also, I'm guessing you have not done this on hard mode, or you would not have given me such a simple answer. I'm well aware of how the mechanics work, and I'm pretty sure I have more hard mode experience than you. My main concern is with gaining agro from Spirits of the Flame, who seem to be shifty on their agro if I'm at 90% agro or higher (again, because they adopt Domo's agro table). During 2nd and 3rd berserk, things get spicy to say the least. I was curious what other ferals are doing to counter this aside from cower. Other ferals on IllidanUS have similar issues it seems.


First of all, I understand they aren't genuine aggro, but they help. Cower, Salv, MD, ToT are all things that can help alleviate these problems. Yes the threat fades, but the intial boost from each application still gives the tank a little extra barrier room to keep the threat off of the dps.

Second, You don't have to be rude, you asked an extremely simple question, whether anyone else was experiencing Aggro problems, I explained why almost everyone does, explaining the mechanics of the fight. You asked for help, I provided it. Regardless of my experience, it is still information.

Third, your speculation on my HM experience is neither here nor there. I have not downed the encounter as my guild may not have the same issues your guild does. We are plagued by a fairly short raid week, so we don't get long to work on an encounter, though I have gotten him to the Flaming Orb phase, if that means anything to you. I didn't ask for you to insult me, which is pretty much the way I took your reply.

Fourth, It is my understanding that the Spirit of the Flame's are quite a bit buggy atm and seem to be jumping to a new target, even if they don't have the full threat on Domo.

Fifth, try using Berserk during his Scorpion phase.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Mitty » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:21 am

The encounter, and damage of the scythe, is designed/balanced to have 7 or 18 (25man) people soaking cleave, which means that up to 3/7 melee or seeds can be behind or running seed and the raid still be fine. Otherwise, Staghelm goes all firecrotch and starts hopping around like lil' bunny fu-fu.


Konungr,


I must not understand your response. Are you suggesting that having 18 people share the cleave is not harder to heal than having 20 people? Of course not.

Also, depending on where you run, people on their way back from a seed explosion may not be in the frontal arc, but may still be close enough to keep him in scorpion form.

Finally, are you suggesting that it is suboptimal to return to share cleave damage as quickly as possible after a seed goes off? I submit that it is a primary encounter mechanic. Why would you discourage someone from optimal mechanics.

Bottom line is that each player should return to the frontal cone as quickly as possible to minimize cleave damage, and help the healers bring everyone up enough for the next scythe.

Mitty

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Konungr » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:14 am

Mitty wrote:
The encounter, and damage of the scythe, is designed/balanced to have 7 or 18 (25man) people soaking cleave, which means that up to 3/7 melee or seeds can be behind or running seed and the raid still be fine. Otherwise, Staghelm goes all firecrotch and starts hopping around like lil' bunny fu-fu.


Konungr,


I must not understand your response. Are you suggesting that having 18 people share the cleave is not harder to heal than having 20 people? Of course not.

Also, depending on where you run, people on their way back from a seed explosion may not be in the frontal arc, but may still be close enough to keep him in scorpion form.

Finally, are you suggesting that it is suboptimal to return to share cleave damage as quickly as possible after a seed goes off? I submit that it is a primary encounter mechanic. Why would you discourage someone from optimal mechanics.

Bottom line is that each player should return to the frontal cone as quickly as possible to minimize cleave damage, and help the healers bring everyone up enough for the next scythe.

Mitty


No, all I was saying is that having a few people out for running seeds or maximizing damage through the concentration buff should not be as detrimental for the raid since it is designed to be handled efficiently by a minimum number of soakers. If you needed all 10 people in to soak the damage, having a mechanic for 1-2 to run out would be a serious flaw.

Sure running out too far is a problem, and one that needs to be corrected, but it shouldn't be a wipe-worthy one.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Stenhaldi » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:06 pm

sellyne wrote:Is anyone else having significant agro issues on hard mode Majordomo? I'm using cower over a dozen times per full attempt.

Yes, when I'm not tanking I generally have to cower on cooldown for a large portion of the fight. The tank should gear for threat on this fight. I tanked this one time with most pieces reforged for expertise and (barring bad luck with vengeance at the start) I was generally able to keep everyone below 90% threat without much trouble until "execute" range. (The Spirits can spawn aggroed on anyone above ~90%, as you noted.)

Also, I haven't checked specifically but I'm pretty sure that the tricks/MD threat is also inherited by the Spirits (and becomes permanent for them). We normally have rogues/hunters cycling tricks/MD on the tank for the whole fight, and when we had one of our rogues missing last night we seemed to have much more frequent issues with Spirits attacking other people.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Kallapryy » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:41 pm

sellyne wrote:Is anyone else having significant agro issues on hard mode Majordomo? I'm using cower over a dozen times per full attempt.


Yes. Also just noticed that while WoL won't track the amount of cowers I use (almost every CD), I was able to discover that it does miss from time to time....the hard way. We are doing our second night of attempts (had a few of below 10% wipes night 1) this reset with our tanks gearing a little more for threat instead of survivability. I'm hoping this helps because like Sten said...it's an issue throughout the fight.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Kallapryy » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:53 am

Something else that helped us tonight, we had our feral tank (who was dpsing) go bear on the pull. He got trix, md's ect. Our main tank would then taunt off before it wore off so he got the threat plus the threat he was generating by just spamming abilities. Seemed to give him a bigger lead.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby sellyne » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:28 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:
sellyne wrote:Is anyone else having significant agro issues on hard mode Majordomo? I'm using cower over a dozen times per full attempt.

Yes, when I'm not tanking I generally have to cower on cooldown for a large portion of the fight. The tank should gear for threat on this fight. I tanked this one time with most pieces reforged for expertise and (barring bad luck with vengeance at the start) I was generally able to keep everyone below 90% threat without much trouble until "execute" range. (The Spirits can spawn aggroed on anyone above ~90%, as you noted.)

Also, I haven't checked specifically but I'm pretty sure that the tricks/MD threat is also inherited by the Spirits (and becomes permanent for them). We normally have rogues/hunters cycling tricks/MD on the tank for the whole fight, and when we had one of our rogues missing last night we seemed to have much more frequent issues with Spirits attacking other people.


Ahh thank you, this is more of the answer I was looking for. So yeah, that was a major question we had as well.. will tricks/MDs help convert to genuine agro on spirits? Good to hear others feel it helps. We tend to save tricks/MD for the latter jumps on cat phases, where the cats aren't dying quite as fast as we might like. Thanks for the help.

@Kallapryy, good ideas as well. I'm not sure how comfortable my raid leaders would feel with that idea, but it makes a lot of sense. I'll see what they say tonight when *fingers crossed*, domo dies.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby exkape » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:26 pm

ok so my guild is gonna be starting H majordomo tonight, and we are going to try the strat refined did where they didnt take any swipes.
just wondering is there any tips that anyone knows to help me out before i get in there.
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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Grenache » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:04 am

Kallapryy wrote:Something else that helped us tonight, we had our feral tank (who was dpsing) go bear on the pull. He got trix, md's ect. Our main tank would then taunt off before it wore off so he got the threat plus the threat he was generating by just spamming abilities. Seemed to give him a bigger lead.


We do this on normal mode 25 also. It lets us blow Bloodlust / Heroism on the pull, whilst people's pre-pots are still ticking.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Furocious » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:23 am

Had some trouble tonight on domo (10N). Dps seemed to be good (we were getting to 8-10% left before the orb cat phase and average dps was higher than the kill I got last week with a slightly different crew), but the transition into that last cat phase just fell completely apart. The first orb soakers took 5 stacks, and then swapped, but then collapsed (we started to lose healers too).

My question - for those that hit the orb cat phase, how healed up was your raid on the initial spread out and who did you assign to soak the orbs? I took an assignment because I had gotten a kill in last week with a crew that cleaned up my lockout so I knew the mechanic, as well as being able to bear up and blow tank outs to absorb the damage.

Logs are at http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-v0bnd9axknrklaug/

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:35 pm

Hi Furocious.

What raid cooldowns were you using on the Scorp phase just before the transition to cat? The more Flame Sythes you take the bigger the cooldown you will need. If the raid is spreading with very low health perhaps you can juggle some cooldowns to make the one before you spread the most powerful.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Fenix » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:46 pm

has anyone tried going a mastery > haste > crit > hit/exp for this fight on Heroic?
right now im doin it as hit/exp mastery haste, but i was wondering if the the above mentioned would work better

just some things to consider when i do this::
I only help kill the last spirit before the transition as well, however i do i stand in the g-spot for skorp phase where i do take dmg from cleave that breaks concentration and still allowing me to shred

heres some logs on 25 attempts.
most of the attempts halfway i tried to focus more on the adds, however the continuous target switching was gay,
ranged could take care of it with some melee whos dps/rotation didnt hurt as much from target swaps

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Furocious » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:09 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:What raid cooldowns were you using on the Scorp phase just before the transition to cat?.

For that phase I believe the order was Aura Mastery, Rally Shout/Cry whatever, Priest Barrier. I can't quite remember what slash we started the outs on offhand :(
I used my tranq typically during the 2nd scorp phase when most of the other outs were on CD.

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Eldhorn » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:01 pm

Furocious wrote:who did you assign to soak the orbs?


Don't forget to use your tank for soaking orbs too, since it already has a lot of reduction, and most likely a lot of healing landing on him. Always cheaper to heal someone a bit more than heal several targets.
A good way to do this is for your tank to place himself a closest to an orb, wait til he's on 4 stacks and then have one of your melee move in closer so that it starts getting stacks instead. No tank movement needed, one orb dealt with :)

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Kz2329 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:03 am

I don't see a bear raid strat forum so I'll post here. So what strat is best with a non-paladin tank for the heroic 25 mode? We have been working on this fight for some time but hitting the enrage timer. We tried taking a) no scythe damage on scorp b) eating 2 scythe hits on some scorps (everyone shares damage), in both scenarios we hit the enrage timer. We are quite range heavy (only 6-7 melee), 5 heals and a bear tank . I know that with a pally tank you can just cheese it on the scorp phase with AD combined with other CDs so most of the raiders don't share the flame scythe damage and keep their concentration buff, not sure how many people can be afforded with the full buff in the case of a geared non paladin tank, anyone know? Any other insights?

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Re: Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Eldhorn » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:05 am

Cheesing the scorp with Pally cds isn't as viable anymore due to him getting faster energy the fewer target he hits. One single target on 25man would give him almost full energy right away, making it essentially a double swipe (It's like this in 10man at least, should be even more so in 25?).

If you don't have a ton of melee you can just put as many casters as possible (without forcing Staggy into Scorp) in melee range to keep them safe from jumps, and to keep dps higher. The remaining people outside will have to run around like ferrets on fire. Put the classes (or people) that suffer least dps lost from running outside, and in the later stages make them start running even before Stag jumped to prevent a oneshot death, and to maintain their Focus buff.

A tactic I know has worked for some is starting with him in Catform, do 7 jumps, gather, wait til 75 Energy in Scorp, then run out again, 7-0-7-0-7-0-3/4-dead
My apologies if this is all elementary stuff for you, I just thought I'd throw all my ideas out there, in case some of it could be applied to your guild.

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