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My stats vs what you suggest I do

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My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Toro » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:01 pm

So, I actually don't read much about ferals, and I don't mean this to sound arrogant, but I do my own work, and have been lucky enough to stumble across Mew, as SimCraft is shit, and AskMrRobot decided to *insert explitive* us on a useful, out-of-the-box sim. I used to read some from John Patricelli back in the day. As for cat, I've been my own source, basically, since WotLK.

I keep a mildly updated post on our guild forums about changes to cat, how they effect me, and what people who have feral alts should do.

Anywho, this is all a lead in to the fact that what I tell people... doesn't quite match what everyone else on this site seems to favor: specifically hit/exp>otherstuffs.

I still do mastery>all else, I weight it that way when I sim, and to be fair, I have more reasons to do so than your average cat.

I'm basically the only cat in our guild, have been since... hell, Monokos left when ToC started and we haven't really had anyone else since Ulduar. We've had a few apps since them, someone main-switched, and they're overall bad. Had one app I got into shape in about 3 days, mostly by fixing his gear and giving him a basic rotation, as he really had only ever been a bear, which he still loves.

Alas, I digress: being the only cat, I also am the only safety tank... that little bit more mastery goes a long way for good ol "agro bear," and is actually the main reason I still favor mastery.

I have yet to try a hit/expertise build, when it comes to reforging/gemming, and have been doing my weighting with agi (wt 3.11), mastery (1.291), crit/haste (1.29), and exp/hit(1.24). Things got a little hectic with 4.2 and I had to do some crazy work to figure things out and honestly went back to AskMrRobot and jacked my weights, just out of ease, as it seemed that crit=haste=mastery, no matter my reforging. Also, as I post in guild, I feel that haste>all for heavy aoe (4+mobs) and stand still, but mastery still weighs out, due to motion and target switching.

Basically, I'm looking to hear "you're doing it wrong," or "you're doing it right," to kind of point myself in the right direction.

TL;DR:
Having never tried it, and seeing it lower on sims, hit/expertise never seemed worthwhile to me, and being the safety tank, the mastery stacking is my desired secondary stat, as well as directly effects ~45% of my dmg, which to me is quite a fair share. I choose mastery>haste>crit>hit=expertise as my stat weights continually. Yes or no to my thinking?

Edit: Fixed OP stat weights to reflect intent, as caught by Vorti.
Last edited by Toro on Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Kojo » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:48 pm

*shrug* If I've been hitting the books right:

You can go with or without hit/exp, the reason people did without before still applies, but for aoe hit/exp will easily make the largest contribution (you don't get refunds on missed swipes) and while it may potentially be very very very slightly less dps single target (like within the margin of random dps fluctuation) the smoother and more reliable priority system more than makes up for it imo.

Haste is not great for aoe, that 1 or 2 extra energy per second is not really doing much for you in such a short term situation, it's more of a long haul stat where you can sit there whittling away on one target and that little bit of energy gain can add up over a long time.

Haste would be better for patchwork stand there and beat it endlessly situations with no variation (but how often is that?), it will not be as good for moments you have to switch targets or otherwise can't be on the target, mastery takes the cake there due to your bleeds still putting hurt on the original target while you're away.

I would say hit/exp>mastery>crit>haste. There's just not enough reason to capitalize on haste and every moment you're not on target the stat is completely wasted.

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Toro » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:05 pm

From my trying to keep it to 11 energy/sec, favoring haste over crit has allowed me to keep that up. The less than 1 energy/sec from putting haste higher than all else... haven't bothered to try as it doesn't give a full 12energy/sec, and I haven't been able to to successfully prove/disprove if the energy change from 11/s to 12/s actually has counts, as in 11.1 energy/sec gives you that extra 1 energy every 11 seconds, or does it just give 11energy/sec at all times?

Actually, if anyone could answer that, I'd be quite happy to read that.

Alas, willing to try the hit/expertise, but I don't feel that "smoothing" out my rotation would do all that much, but you bring up a good point that for aoe fights (And I can only think of 1 where my guild has me aoe'ing, at least in firelands [screw you maloriak]... Rag p2)... couldn't hurt... I hope...
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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Vorticose » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:29 pm

I think your strategy is fine, pretty much no priority of secondary stats is outright 'wrong' at the moment. Definitely mastery stacking will leave you in a better position go bear.

You could just gear based on bear priorities: Mastery>Exp>Crit>Hit>Haste
Alternatively you mention AoE stat priorities: Exp/Hit > Haste > Crit > Mastery

If you're talking about going bear mid-fight, you need Thick Hide 3/3 or you're no better than a DPS Warrior or DK (maybe even worse). With both Thick Hide 3/3 & Natural Reaction 2/2, and gearing towards Mastery, we would by far make the best emergency tank.

I also agree with you that people place too much importance on 'smoothing' the rotation and sometimes talk about it like it gives some huge dps boost. It's possible it really is a big deal for some people who are used to it, but I think if you're used to the fact that your attacks don't always hit it's not a big deal (especially with a 1sec gcd), and I've always been fine with that as feral.

Also I agree that firelands is not that AoE heavy, but it probably only takes a couple swipes to give hit/exp the 'edge', especially if it is important to kill those targets.

My only issue is with your stat valuations. I think you are placing far far too low of a value on agility, for cats it should be worth roughly 3 times more than the best secondary stat, and it should definitely be at least x2.5 at any level of gear.

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Toro » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:21 pm

Hm, I like using my agi as 3.11x, but I could jack it up... would need proof before I change it.

As for safety-Bear... I tend to save Barkskin (+glyph) and SI for it... usually fight specific, alas, the 50% reduction is mad imp and typically the one I save, depending on fight. Being up for ~5s to get the brez+buffs is all I typically need, but you'd be surprised how often it happens ='/

Been doing feral for somethign like... 7 years? Well, not straight... feral'd MC, BWL, had to switch guilds for progression reasons, alas, bear'd till "the nerf" in BC, then resto'd, hit WotLK, resto'd till LB nerf, then switched servers to US-RH and have been cat since... while tanking and anythign else that's needed, cat MS, to get us through stuffs.

Alas, that history lesson on me is simply to suggest that I'm not really bothered with a complex, or spotty, 'rotation.' Have never really put hit/exp as a high priority, with the exception of end of Wrath when I could hit caps with, basically, one item... gg chestpiece of chestiness...

Just realized what I wrote for my initial weighting of stats... dropped a place-value; I will correct that now:
Agi(3.11)>Mastery(1.291)>Haste(1.29)=Crit(1.29)>Hit(1.24)=Exp(1.24)
I personally gear as follows, despite my weighting like that:
Agi>Mastery>Haste>Crit>>>Hit=Exp

Thanks for catching that, Vorti!
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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby shinryu » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:26 pm

I dunno, hit/exp is still nice to have as a bear, better threat after all. No real reason you can't aim to be hit capped as well, as Mastery would still be overall the best secondary stat, with Bears favoring crit more than haste I think.

Still, from a cat perspective, everything after mastery is so similar in value, it won't matter for crit or haste after it. Bears like crit more than haste though, so just go along with that I'd guess.

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:11 am

Hi Toro. Welcome to the community.

I really think you are putting a lot more value on haste and that "11 engergy a second". Now it is true that over a 6 minute fight you might get 6 extra shreds in due to the bonus energy. Now that is assuming perfect play. Any time you energy cap because shred missed, or any time you have off the boss (Aly, Beth, Stag, Rag) or have to change targets (Rhyolith, Aly, Beth, Rag, Shannox) you lose those extra shreds. Now haste does give faster auto attacks which gives more OOC procs so its not a bad stat to have. However getting enough haste to hit 11 energy a second is going to hurt you more then it helps.

The reason a lot of us are going for the hit/exp caps before maxing out mastery is the nature of our current raiding environment. All fights but one require target switching or time off the boss. In those situations having buffed bleeds on a target before swaping is going to give back more then 15 extra energy during the ramp up. In the cases when the boss will be out of reach nothing sucks worse then having 5 combo points and not being able to refresh rip because you missed 2 times and got dodged. The smoothing of the rotation is very nice too.

All in all the only fight where going all haste over hit/exp caps is normal Baleroc. Have a look around this very powerful knowledge base that our community has created. Really read up on a lot of the hard work our membership has done to produce these findings. You may find you learn a few things.

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby BoldTM » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:57 am

Another thing to considere is that haste is the worst stat for a bear. So if you are sometime bearing then haste from a duall roles perspective is kind of a bad stat. Looking at Mew/Rawr for a kitty almost every secondary stat is roughly the same and the difference is very small regarding dps. So i am staying away from haste.

Is there a breaking point in regarding of haste? When i played moonkin there where caps where moonkins get a extra tick of a dot and similiar. Is there such breakpoints for ferals? Adding one more tick of RIP or RAKE?

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Kojo » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:59 am

BoldTM wrote:Is there a breaking point in regarding of haste? When i played moonkin there where caps where moonkins get a extra tick of a dot and similiar. Is there such breakpoints for ferals? Adding one more tick of RIP or RAKE?


Nah our bleeds are completely unaffected by haste, we just get faster auto-attacks and energy regen.

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Fonia » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:26 am

Well I know this is just empirical, but I switched to hit/exp a while back (was running a fair amount of it in T11 too, but not capped). I definitely like it, though I guess I'm not nearly as intuitive on my feral, didn't level this toon till march 2010 or so, and went feral a couple months after that.

I currently raid with another feral in our 25m, and with a few minor differences gear-wise (I had fandrals, he danseur, etc) I had been thrashing him on the meters. Just this past week he finally made the switch and basically caught up with me on every fight, making the remark that he wished he had done so sooner.

Also as others have said, if you plan on going bear occasionally, all that haste is basically useless for it. Exp and hit (exp moreso) are very valuable threat and mitigation stats for bears, as it helps your SD uptime.

Personally I like having the hitcaps, but really, as long as you're favoring agi and not forgetting to enchant things, there's not many ways to go wrong with cat gearing.

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Toro » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:56 am

@Tinderfhoof: thank you for the input... between fff and white dmg ooc procs, I understand the extrent of where haste fits in, for the majority of our damage; ppm on fury swipes is up there as well, but less extravagent. I'll need to check through these forums a bit more to see what I can come up with, however, I'm still not fully sold on hit/exp over other stats, I'm slowly beginning to desire to try crit over haste, again, despite my initial work done to keep my haste just over that little barrier, which ended up giving about 0.8s aspd, with raid buffs, 20% more ppm on ooc, 20% increase ppm FS. I haven't been able to play with swinging more than 5% haste, due to reforging limits, however, with that change, I have, on average seen ~2% drop in dps, which is slightly more than my sigma.

@BoldTM: I do understand that haste is worst for bears; since t11 content dropped, and the stacking of SD, I've begun to go mastery>expertise>crit as my gearing, though honestly, I stopped collecting a second set as I'm not expected to tank heroic content; all of the non-heroic content I typically dps, unless we've got disconnect issues, etc. The safety-Bear mastery stacking is all that I really intended to do with that, considering the 3-5sec in bear form before the boss gets taunted off me. Aside from that point, if haste increased the rate of bleeding, I'd be on that boat in a heartbeat... alas, not that way today ='/

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Toro » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:01 am

@Fonia: At least in terms of enchanting, etc, here's my link: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/r ... oro/simple
I'd be wearing 4pc with my 391 Shannox gloves, but I actually passed the tier hat I won last night, as I'll use teh Rhy 391 hat till hRag, which I'm still waiting to see drop... overall our raid dps is... well, shitty. We're supposed to be middle of the road, and aside from our lock with his 391-almost-legendary staff, I dont' fight with too many people for top dmg.

If it's desired, I'll throw some parses, alas, have to find time between projects at work.
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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Fonia » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:57 am

Heh, def understand ya there. Our top 5 dps is usually filled with me, the other feral, an enhance, an ass rogue and maybe a hunter. Our fury warrior with the only 391 weapon in the raid is below our warr tank's SMF offspec... Lol...

Changes on rhyolith and alys of course with melée on legs/ground, but yea. Our ranged for the most part are pretty underwhelming.


Oh and about the enchants, wasn't criticizing yours, just saying that with the current state of feral secondaries, the only ways to reall screw your dps are to go above hit/exp caps, gem non-agi for bad bonuses, or simply forget to enchant something. Anything else(within reason) won't really change enough to be majorly significant.

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:56 am

Short answer Toro - your stat weights are way off - agility is worth about 2x everything else and the rest of the stats are pretty comparable depending on the rest of your gear and the type of the fight. The good news is that the secondary stats are so close together now, that what you are doing works. The truth is that unless you are reforging to dodge or spirit, it won't make much difference.

Since you stated you have not done much reading, and there is a wealth of information on this forum you have not read, I suggest you read this post by Yawning (the primary author of Mew) on relative stat values and their limitations:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=324&p=3129&hilit=RSV#p3129

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Toro » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:43 am

Well, as I've heard from different people, in the few posts here, that agi is 2x and 2.5x, I'm using 3.11 vs 1.29 (I just adjusted the OP to reflect Vorti's catch a day or so ago, where I dropped had a typing error), which is about 2.4x, so I'm content with the values that I'm using.

I will look at it as I hadn't updated the OP and that's the only thing Leafkiller read.

Alas, as of last night, and after a few sims with adjusted gear, it looks like my change in dps from my current reforging (still all agi gemming, would never f with that) to hit/expertise cap (or pretty damned close to) is along the lines of less than the standard deviation of my current reforging as run on Mew. I used AskMrRobot where I manually placed the stat weights I wanted (hit/expertise=1.24, mastery=1.21, crit/haste=1.2), optimized and used the stat values in mew, with the different weights, switching crit/haste with mastery for 1.21 and 1.2 (only one of those 3 secondary stats being 1.21 at a time). All gave the same result, less of a dps change than the standard deviation of the sim.

So, with that in mind, I am now just shy of my hit/exp caps... smoother isn't needed, but if it doesn't seem to theoretically effect my dmg, I'm willing to try it out.

I have yet to read the Yawning post, and I don't intend that everything on the 9 pages between the initial post and what I want to read is bullshit, but, as I have said in guild and on our guild forums time and time again, it's why I hate EJ... many, many posts hiding the information you truly want to get. I'm sure I could learn something I didn't expct by reading through those 9 pages of posts, however, it will take some time to get that far. The gist of what I've read so far, having only made it to page 2 is that relative stat values (RSVs, and yes, it took me till page two to put two and 2 together to catch RSV=relative stat value; I'll admit my shortcoming) shouldn't be why you're reforging, etc.

I will make a blunt comment, which I'm sure will be chewed and spit back at my face: It is important to take in all facts and factors when addressing new information, and blindly taking new facts as a pure interpretation of the your desired outcome before wholly understanding what each means makes you either a fool or uninformed.

I used the stat values I used in AskMrRobot on account of my initial weighting (see OP) and adjusting around that, as all of the secondary stats are pretty damned close.

Current intent: test this out, then most likely make another post about where I feel I stand. I will specifically weight Rag kills vs each other, as I didn't reforge until after raid, and though 1 data point is a bad scientific choice to compare all you've done to, I will do it to get an idea of where I stand, assuming I don't completely dick off while playing, ie meteor or engulfing flame death. I will peruse these forums a bit, look for titles of posts that intrigue me, and go from there, which will most likely be a bit of today... assuming I take a lunch break.
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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Toro » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:46 pm

So, I had a post here, I am editing it... I think I found my calling to hit and expertise caps... I had Berserk up, with bloodlust, and missed 2 shreds... which had me capped on energy for a while... meaning I only got 5 extensions, instead of seven, based on a few non-crits, so yeah... got pretty hard... I know it's not the biggest thing in the world, but it's still pretty large...

...Thanks for pushing me to attempt it... didn't actually know I was missing out on that, merely on account of not trying it, which should have been obvious.

I kind of updated my Cata Release guide for my guild site with 4.2 data, just basic stuffs to get people the right gems, idea about how stats are weighted, and a general priority list, with some spec stuff thrown in... would it be worthwhile for me to post the 4.2 updated version here and just get it proofed? Would need a dif thread, but it kind of goes with the "this is what I do, this is what most of you suggest" theme.
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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Aratama » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:34 am

In all honesty after playing feral kitty for a short while now I found that hit/exp soft cap -> mastery -> crit -> haste as the most sufficient ones but you also want to maintain a decent amount of haste as well but not at the expense of the other stats. The worst I've found is being under exp cap for yellow attacks.....that is just so "O M F G I just missed a lot of my spells......" you have so much down time its horrible, after going with my current setup listed I've found myself being able to peak at 40k+ dps at start of every fight due to not missing a single hit at all and its god sent...for those few seconds I have all my buffs up I'm in heaven.
Missing at start of a fight or during a fight is hell to recover from especially at crucial times. The dps loss is pretty huge.....I'd rather be energy starved for 1 sec and still be able to hit rather than "miss miss miss dodge hit...."

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Re: My stats vs what you suggest I do

Postby Qbear » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:53 am

Yeah Toro grab a spot in either the general wow forums or off topic forums to post the guide if you want to have it looked at.

Try to keep things like that out of the feral dps forums as you can see we like this free for more fast paced discussions.

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