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Class Feedback

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Class Feedback

Postby Rarge » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:28 pm

Now's our chance! Blizzard are asking for player feedback on everyone's classes!

EU thread: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2624978483
US thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3123249662

I've took the liberty of listing things you might want to mention:
Shred's positional requirement
Inability to swap targets quickly
Huge cost of Skull Bash
The countless bugs Rip has
Nothing to use CPs on when Rip and Savage Roar are up (yes you can FB but it's not really worth it)
No sustainable AoE

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby Konungr » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:57 pm

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... page=7#134

Also, FB is worth it, you may choose not to, but it is worth it.

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby adianar » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:57 pm

Lol. Ya'll beat me to the post. WE should be clear, appropriate and accurate. That is relatively challenging based on an entire class response. I read a handful of them already and I found many, many obvious errors to current game environment.

Adi

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby Konungr » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:13 pm

Basically I just took all the ideas that I have made posts on before, or brought up, and consolidated them all into that one post. After 4.2 hit, I never said 1 bad word about Shred's positional requirement, until we started working on Heroic Ragnaros with 2 healers and the distance we had to be from the tanks became a problem for the healers without the Replenishment buff.

I started working towards a change for Swipe, Claw, or both a long time ago, makes switching to the adds on Majordomo, and on any other fight like that (Sons of Flame, Rag) a PITA. Skull Bash has been a problem since they implemented it, having to wear PVP gear for PVE is just wrong and Blizzard needs to fix that shi-.


Anyone else notice how many of the posts were about Tree Form lol.

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby shinryu » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:03 pm

Konungr wrote:Anyone else notice how many of the posts were about Tree Form lol.

Well we all knew that decision to take out perma-tree form was a stupid one, lot of healers wanted a new form yeah since the old one could aptly be described at "broccoli head", but they didn't want to see their ugly toons in the lame armor they give druids lol. Whether they intended to or not, druids are basically the shapeshift class, and as such people expect to play in another form while using them.

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby Konungr » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:19 pm

shinryu wrote:
Konungr wrote:Anyone else notice how many of the posts were about Tree Form lol.

Well we all knew that decision to take out perma-tree form was a stupid one, lot of healers wanted a new form yeah since the old one could aptly be described at "broccoli head", but they didn't want to see their ugly toons in the lame armor they give druids lol. Whether they intended to or not, druids are basically the shapeshift class, and as such people expect to play in another form while using them.


The "Shapeshifting" class argument is null and void since Resto Druids Shapeshift more now than before.

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby Toro » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:05 pm

I'm just saying... give me back my power-shift!

I had it in vanilla, I had it in BC, I had it in Wrath, and now... wtf?!

Also, if we're going for abilities that we once had, give me back my tauren = self mount thing that blizzard said was not good for the economy in wow where those races would not need to buy mounts, making it more useful overall than other races. Worgens... meh.

On a more serious note, I've been tempted to post on the forum, but I wasn't sure if was worth noting that I miss how druid play used to be. I was feral in vanilla and it was keep up rip, keep up rake, and FB when you could, which didn't happen all that often due to the bleed timers, alas, BC initiated the "dot class" with shadow priests getting soem love, affliction getting a hell of a buff, and druids being the respective melee counterpart with bleed dmg as their dot. This lasted from the second patch in BC (when our bleeds got a little buff to put us in line with regular dmg, due to some early beta sims using the 2pc t4 to boost numbers making us look really good) till Cata. I miss being the only spec for dps that didn't care about hit/expertise, stacked straight dmg stats and, albeit it took us till the final tier of content to really excel above others due to ap scaling with bleeds, it was a nice place to be. Felt cool having strong uptime on mobs, even when I had to move out of fire with legion flames, got ported into a bubble on tidewalker, or had a bad tank who moved a lot doing the dance vs heigan.

We got a lot of *explitive here* from other classes when their no-resilence backsides decided to face the pve geared feral in pvp early in Cata (add to that the bug with rake double dipping) and we see a nearly instant nerf. 4.2 hit and we got back some damage in terms of direct damage, shred, FB, SR buffs, but it really doesn't feel the same. I feel like a subpar sub rogue in pvp (FC=SS, sans power shift) and in pve, I'm close to how I used to be, but have more requirements to be behind a boss, which I can deal with, typically, but that being in front for fights is just completely detrimental still (which can be partly due to our guild doing fights specific ways which severely hinders those bound by positional requirements).

If anyone feels as strongly about that as I do, please say so and I'll post my views, otherwise, I'll sit as a quiet player, same as I tend to have been for the past 7 years.
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Re: Class Feedback

Postby Mitty » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:17 pm

I am not trying to troll here, or start a flame war, but I have been reflecting on the class comments. The consistent complaints about feral cat dps are (1) difficulty target switching (single to single as well as single to AoE), and (2) the shred positional requirement.

First, about me - I am by no means an expert on our class. I rejoined my old guild after an 18 month hiatus from wow in time to help them finish out t11, and now my gear is on par with others in guild. We are by no means hardcore, we raid 7-8 hours per week spread over 3 nights. We are 7/7 reg and 1/7 HM. At this point, I am pretty happy with my dps. I excel on some fights, consistently in or around the top 3 on Rag, Domo, Bale, and Shannox, a little lower for Beth. I do struggle with Alys and Rhyo. Overall, though, I wonder if we really have much to complain about.

As our spec stands, we seem to really excel at some fights, and struggle on others. We have perhaps the best AoE abilities, certainly so if we use our CDs on AoE. We excel at single-target fights, and have great movement abilities. I do think t11 content was unfairly harsh on melee in general, don't get me wrong. But melee seems to be doing very well in t12. If devs tweaked our class to do away with target-switching difficulties, and removed the positional requirement on shred, sure, we would do better dps on some fights.

But do we need to?

Should we bask in the fact that we excel in some fights now? Would it be boring if every fight was feral friendly? Would that take away from the anticipation of topping the meter on Rag? It took me a while to figure out how to handle Domo and his adds in cat phase. If target switching were not a problem, I wouldn't have had to work at that strategy, and I would not feel some satisfaction for figuring it out.

I supposed I just wonder if we are, as a class, asking for too much? Should we be content with excellence in some fights, mediocrity in others?
Thoughts?

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:53 pm

Hi Mitty.

I think what you ask is a fair question. Right now I think Feral is in a very good place. We aren't stuck at the bottom of the meters, and we are not really broken in any specific way.

That being said the class feedback is about finding out what pain points each class has to deal with or "Quality of Life issues". None of the big ticket issues we have listed will make or break the class. However the two that are listed most (positional requirement/target switching) are ones that are affected by encounter design and end up punishing us more than any other class.

The Staghelm fight is a great example. While we can keep our own damage up by just auto-attacking the cats till Staghelm returns or swiping to keep from energy capping we are doing very little damage to the cats. If we do attempt to do serious damage to the cats our overall damage will suffer greatly due to lost combo points and lower bleed up times. If a pull goes badly because cats didn't die fast enough ferals doing the least amount of damage will be told to do more, or be sat. When our ability to perform under different encounter mechanics is much lower than EVERY other class that is a problem.

Now I will be honest, I don't want to be like every other class. I don't expect to be able to move combo points like Rogues, or take my combo points with me like Ret Palis. I don't even need to be better at target switching then other classes. I don't even mind being the worst at it. I would just like to be at least close to the next worse class instead of a mile below.

Same with Positional requirements. Our whole rotation is built around being able to extend Rip, and use bleed debuffs and mangle to buff our best combo point generator. When encounter mechanics remove that ability completely we aren’t even using our core mechanics. Again, I don't need Mangle to suddenly do the exact same damage as Shred. However allowing us to at least make use of one of our 3 Prime glyphs I don't think is excessive.

I think it makes for a great game when I can excell at some fights, and do less on others. It gives variety. I just don’t' want my less to be such a wider margin then other classes.

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby Mitty » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:36 pm

Nice response Tinder. I will admit that by the time I got the domo cat add strat down, our other melee dps could pretty much handle the adds. On progression kills I could not have ignored them.

Thanks for taking the post as it was intended - I just hate for blues to interpret our posts as "moar dps please." I feel better about responding now.

Mitty

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby BoldTM » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:03 am

Looking at raidbot i cant see how we are ok place compared to other classes in dps to be honest. We are not excelling in any of the boss fights, not as cat anyways. It could be that some classes are to high rather then us being to low but we are not competative in regards to dps imho.

Baleroc 25 HC for example
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Baleroc/25H/ ... ult/#3nvvt

This is pretty much a tank and spank fight if there is one in Firelands where we should be at our best since i think single target standing still behind the boss is when we are doing our best? We are 10% after the best melee, Warrior/Rogue but somewhat close to the other classes.

The worst fight for us is Ragnaros imho
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Ragnaros/25H ... ult/#3vs00
As stated before we really fall behind asap when we cant use shred. And this fight we suck since our ramp up time is also very long which is not very good in regards of the dps.

I think we really need a short burst alternative. We are to dependent on our bleeds to do dps and when we cant use them we really dont have any other option. We should have a max dps alternative using bleeds and shred but there should be an alternative that gives us 80-90% of max dps when we cant do that. Someone mentioned the "Ravage" alternative which i think is a good idea. We should be able to xfer our CP to a burst buff when switching targets or something.

Furthermore we have alot of spells that either can be removed or buffed.
Claw is not used at all, either remove or buff so its a frontal alternative to Shred. Ie must be better DPS/DPE then Mangle
FB is used sometimes but are almost not giving any dps gains compared to Shredding. FB should do lower DPE/DPS the our bleeds but should be a good alternative for burst.

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby Druidohorde » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:29 pm

Unfortunately, I’m going to have to disagree with most of this.

Although, I think that ravage buff is a good idea.

I don’t particularly think we’re low in comparison. I think we’re average. Not the best, not the worst. Of course, this is based off my Memory-o-meter, and not maxdps.com, world of logs, or that site.

Heroic Bale is a terrible example of dps on heroic content (which that site refers to). Since we are moving around a lot, and usually feral druids are soakers our numbers would suffer as we’ll have torment the most. Often, leading to having to mangle rather than bleed for a little.

Also, doing 20k on Ragnaros is terrible as well. Why? Most guilds don’t allow the feral druid to be in a position to shred. Fortunately, my guild allows me to be on the far left of the platform, while the tanks are on the far right. I shred like a madman. If I did less than 24k on that fight I’d be sat. Particularly, regular Rag should be one of our best dps numbers since proper use of Swipe will raise our numbers significantly (think Rhyolith)

That site says they get their information from the top 100 WOL reports? I find that hard to believe, as no feral druid in those guilds would be doing 20k on rag. I’m sorry.

Shadow priests are high, cus they get DI most of the time. Boomkins I think are high, cus they are the most OP in my experience. All other classes are fairly equal.

I will agree however, that once we’re in a position where we can’t shred we’re screwed. Change your raids mechanics to ensure classes are in a position to shred when needed…. Don’t change the class. There is zero reason a feral druid should not be able to shred on Rag. Fix your raid leader.

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Re: Class Feedback

Postby BoldTM » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:59 pm

I perhaps should not link the Ragnaros 25 HM stats which i did. Since not many guilds are killing Ragna on 25 HM and fewer are showing their logs on WoL.

However i would suggest that taking a sample of all top 100 parses is way more accurate then any self experience.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Ragnaros/25N ... ult/#3vs00
This is Ragna on 25 normal and we are doing as many of the melee except Warriors and Rogues.

However you need to understand that in many cases the top dpser are getting buffed with DI and in some cases ToT as well. Still using DI we are a few K dps behind warriors and rogues. I am not saying that we are way behind but we should not perhaps think of us that we are equal to the top specc at the moment. We are not.

I personally hate DI, Power Infusion, Tricks of Trade and any buff that boost any specc with 1-3K dps but that is another thing to rage about.

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