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Baleroc

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Aurea » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:29 pm

multiplicative ist worse than additive would be :]

multiplicative would be 60, additive 70%. didn't think of FR yet. but right now its warriors soaking, so im in max dps duty :] (yeah, i get DI).

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Konungr » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:43 am

Aurea wrote:multiplicative ist worse than additive would be :]

multiplicative would be 60, additive 70%. didn't think of FR yet. but right now its warriors soaking, so im in max dps duty :] (yeah, i get DI).


Multiplicative it would be 80%, you have to factor in the base 100% of it. Like Speed always has that unseen 100% that everything is based upon.

.5 x .2 = .6
1.5 x 1.2 = 1.8

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Aurea » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:58 am

nah, your math is flawed...

.5 * .1 = .1 for starters :]

take for example a 100dmg hit:

100 * .5 (SI) = 50
50 * .2 (BS) = 40
-> multiplicative stacking yields 60% reduce.

100 * (.5 + .2) = 0.3
-> additive stacking yields 70% reduce.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Konungr » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:22 am

Aurea wrote:nah, your math is flawed...

.5 * .1 = .1 for starters :]

take for example a 100dmg hit:

100 * .5 (SI) = 50
50 * .2 (BS) = 40
-> multiplicative stacking yields 60% reduce.

100 * (.5 + .2) = 0.3
-> additive stacking yields 70% reduce.


.5 x .1 = .05, not .1
.5 x .2 = .1

100 x .5 = 50
100 x .2 = 80
100 x (.5 x .2) = 90
100 x (.5 + .2) = 30


Edit: Also, the reason your multiplicative stacking yeilded 60% is because you multiplied the secondary reduction to the product of the first reduction. The reductions are a positive, in this particular case, so there is an inherent 100% attached to them, otherwise having multiple damage reduction buffs would cancel each other out.

100 x (1.5 x 1.2) = 20

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Stenhaldi » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:55 am

Fractional damage mitigation effects always stack multiplicatively. Survival instincts scales incoming damage by .5. Barkskin scales incoming damage by .8. So with both up, incoming damage is scaled by (.5)(.8) = .4, corresponding to 60% total mitigation.

Konungr wrote:Multiplicative it would be 80%, you have to factor in the base 100% of it. Like Speed always has that unseen 100% that everything is based upon.

Damage mitigation effects reduce damage taken so you subtract them from, rather than add them to, unity. If you were considering the stacking of damage bonuses then adding them to unity would be appropriate.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby mekell » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:06 am

shinryu wrote:Ok, so for 10man, for whatever odd reason I have trouble surviving the stacks from the shard; to give a brief overview, we have myself and a DK on one shard, then a warrior and spriest on the other, then back and forth like so. We wait till 15 stacks come on, then move out for the next guy. But yeah...I suggested it might be my HP (very oddly I'm the lowest of the 3, like 2-3k lower than the rest since they picked up an upgrade somewhere in firelands or 365s or whatever), but like they said, that can't be the whole thing...if I pop Barkskin that doesn't do crap and I die anyways, but Survival Instincts works fine in living (except for the 3min CD)...so yeah, anyone have some recommendations on what to do? Kinda annoying me honestly...


Shin - we got to this guy last night and got a couple of attempts in and quickly and realized that 4 healers may be the way to go for us too, at least, for now. Unfortunately i am the 4th healer, so no dpsing for me on this fight until we get everything worked out. We didn't down him, but we were well ahead of the enrage timer, so i am confident that with a few more attempts we will get him. We are attempting this with 1 tank, and our dps are taking 12-15 stacks and then swapping. Our problem is how the healing buff works. Can anyone provide info on this? Here's what i observed:

Any time you heal a dps with the tormented buff, you gain a stacking buff that essentially does nothing. However, when you heal the tank, your stacks convert to a healing buff (5% per stack). You cannot gain new stacks until your healing buff wears off at which point you regain the previous amount of stacks you had and can gain more by healing the dps with the tormented buff. You gain 1 stack per 3 stacks of tormented buff every time you use a direct heal on the dps that has the tormented debuff.

Does that sound right? If so, i think our only problem is finding a balance of gaining healing stacks and keeping the tank alive. Are you using 1 or 2 tanks? If so, how many healers at a given time do you have dedicated to the tank in your setup?
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Re: Baleroc

Postby Fonia » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:48 am

Well from the 10 man perspective, here's how we did it last night in my alt's guild, where I'm more involved in overall strategy. (alt is arms warrior, main is my feral in 25man). We used 1 tank (dk) and 3 healers (hpriest, pally, and Druid). For crystal rotations we had a shadowpriest and a ret on one, with me(arms), frost dk and a Mage on the other.

Fro healing, we had the druid on the crystal target full-time, and when decimation blade came up he would switch to the tank and spam healing touch with his high stacks. Pally and priest rotated between tank and crystal target every 15 secs. We blew hero at the start of the fight, and spriest took stacks to 25 on the first crystal (using dispersion) as the pally slammed flash to inflate stacksand then did the rest as normal. Not very feral specific I know, but then u were asking about healing :)

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Re: Baleroc

Postby mekell » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:07 pm

Thanks Fonia - that gives me some ideas to toss back to our RL. We had the 2-2 dps rotation going and doing fine on the crystals. Generally we would wipe because the tank would die. We were trying a rotation of each healer was assigned a crystal target. If your target was up taking torment then you healed your target and the other 3 remaining healers focused on the tank. Your strat of just having a healer dedicated to healing the crystal target and 3 (or 2) others dedicated to tanks and swapping to build up stacks as they can and having the crystal healer turn on to the tank with massive stacks when DB comes up may a be a bit better.

The problem with the strat we were using i think was we were unsure what caused the healing buff to start over. It lasts 10 seconds or so when you heal the tank (i think), when that 10 seconds drops off, if you have hots left on the tank, does it start the buff over again? If so its crucial that if you are taking the opportunity to swap to the crystal target to build stacks that you dont have remaining hots left on the tank or you end up with the healing buff and not able to build stacks. We are close, we were getting him to 40% after only a few attempts, i think just understanding the mechanics exactly will finish him off.

Appreciate the info!
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Re: Baleroc

Postby Konungr » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:59 pm

We have a 3 heal rotation and a 2-2 dps rotation. Our Resto Druid heals Tanks/Raid at all times and our Disc Priest/Resto Shammy switch between Crystals-Tanks. The Disc Priest heals the Warrior and DK when they take the first crystal, then the tanks after they don't. The Resto Shaman heals the me and the warlock when we are taking Crystal and the tank when we aren't.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Fonia » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:30 pm

I believe that hots do not affect either buff. Here is my understanding of how the healing buffs work:

Every time you direct heal (hots dont count here) someone with torment, you get one stack per 3 stacks of torment they have. So if they have 24 stacks of torment, you get 8 stacks of the heal buff.

When you cast a direct heal on someone with blaze of glory(tank increased health debuff), you get a debuff (15 sec duration)that increases your healing (maybe just on tanks?) by 5% per stack that you gained from healing torment targets. After this debuff fades you cannot gain it again for 15 seconds(I think, can't check on phone), but you keep your earlier stacks from healing torment targets.

So, you want your healers switching between tanks and crystal targets every 15 secs, and your dps switching crystal targets basically when they can't live through it anymore. For that reason we found it beneficial to split into separate vent channels( heals and tank in one, dps in another, with a third channel to split melée and ranged in 25man).

If you decide to go with the 2-tank method, one tank basically just gets enough stacks to have over the min 250k health, and then tanks only during decimation blade.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby mekell » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:53 pm

Thanks for the info guys, hopefully we will burn through the shannox, ryo and beth tonite and get some more shots at him. This information should help a good deal.
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Re: Baleroc

Postby Ammiel » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:46 pm

Fonia wrote:When you cast a direct heal on someone with blaze of glory(tank increased health debuff), you get a debuff (15 sec duration)that increases your healing (maybe just on tanks?) by 5% per stack that you gained from healing torment targets. After this debuff fades you cannot gain it again for 15 seconds(I think, can't check on phone), but you keep your earlier stacks from healing torment targets.


This is incorrect, you can trigger it right again if you want.
People switch back and forth to keep an even level on the healing buff so all healers can keep up with the increasing tank health.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby shinryu » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:54 pm

Personally? In my non-hardcore opinion (ie, we're not the best of raiders), if 3 healing, the fight comes down more to luck since if the tank can't dodge at least 1 decimation blade, it's near impossible for 2 "casual" healers to catch up to heal them to full all 3 times. Though we've successfully 4-healed this fight many times. Who knows...

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Fonia » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:55 pm

Ammiel wrote:
Fonia wrote:When you cast a direct heal on someone with blaze of glory(tank increased health debuff), you get a debuff (15 sec duration)that increases your healing (maybe just on tanks?) by 5% per stack that you gained from healing torment targets. After this debuff fades you cannot gain it again for 15 seconds(I think, can't check on phone), but you keep your earlier stacks from healing torment targets.


This is incorrect, you can trigger it right again if you want.
People switch back and forth to keep an even level on the healing buff so all healers can keep up with the increasing tank health.


Thanks for the clarification. I haven't actually healed this fight yet and wasn't totally sure.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Evil » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:09 am

Tinderhoof wrote:
Aurea wrote:does any of my fellow kitties out here have experience with single soaking crystals on heroic?
when to use which cd, use of external cds, TB trinket?
and on a related matter... barkskin and SI do stack multiplicatively, dont they?

If they did it would be amazing...but I am pretty sure they are only additive.
Ferals have a great amount of tools for pulling off the full stack (but only every 3 shards).

Lets look at your cooldowns:
SI - 12 seconds (18 if you have T11 4p).
Barkskin - 12 seconds.
Mirror? - 10 seconds.
Bear Form/Frenzied Regeneration (glyphed)- Awesome all the time (20 seconds)!

Pretty much stacking everything at once if your best bet unless you have an external cooldown like Pain Suppression. The Shard lasts 25 seconds and gives 1 stack a second. Have your debuff indicator in easy view and have it set to show stacks. If dps isn't going to be a major concern go bear at 6 stacks and hit FR (if glyphed you get 30% more healing for 20 seconds and a larger health pool. If you healers can keep you up till you get 13 stacks you are golden. Just pop SI and Barkskin together (SI at 7 stacks if you have 4p) and wait 2 ticks to pop mirror. That gives you 70% damage reduction 30% more healing taken and ~45% shadow resistance.

If your healers have issues keeping you up before 13 stacks have an external used on you like Hand Sacrafice or Pain suppression. Don't save those till last cause nothing is going to beat the 70% reduction you can give yourself.

Hope that helps.



My guild is on Baleroc HC right now and they told me to think about taking one shard alone. I'm a Feral DD - so I need to get into bear form and using all CD's I have plus Painsup. Anyone here ever is in the same situation and took one shard alone?

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Qbear » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:47 am

The post you quoted has it lined out perfectly. There's no reason to get a pain sup or a sac unless your healers are unable to heal a stack to 13; however, if your healers can't handle this task then you have more issues then looking for ways to solo a shard.

So get to 13 then use the rotation described by Tinder. Bear form SI, Barkskin, FR (Glyphed) at 13 stacks. Plus Mirror at 15 stacks. I've never done it but seems simple enough.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Konungr » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:11 am

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-q ... 264&e=1621

Feel free to tear this log apart for tips, the other Feral, Cheggit, takes several crystals by himself, I know he takes the entirety of the first crystal, and he uses Bear Form to do it, but beyond that, you'll have to look at the log.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby redline » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:11 pm

There's no need to wait until 13 stacks to use Bear + FR. As FR lasts 20s, you can pop it as early as 5 stacks. However, as glyphed FR is only 10% more healing than NI, depending on your healers and dps requirements, you may not need to go bear form at all. If your healers can comfortably heal you up to 13 stacks without any CDs, you may be able to get by with just BS + SI + trinket.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Stenhaldi » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:22 pm

I normally solo every sixth melee crystal with a smoke bomb. Not quite as good for healer buff stacking as soloing it without the smoke bomb (though still better than a normal rotation of two people), but less of a strain on healing, doesn't require any other external cooldowns, and I don't need to give up any damage to do it. If a rogue drops a smoke bomb on the crystal right before it finishes spawning, it won't target anyone until the smoke bomb expires, meaning it'll only go up to 19-22 stacks. I just hit barkskin at ~7 stacks and survival instincts at 10.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Eldhorn » Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:32 pm

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/sbp7bbs1 ... 350&e=2711 - another log to pick apart. 10man HC

We also went with the strategy of having me soak a full crystal at the start to get the healers stacks up quickly, since if we can manage that, it's just up to the dpsers to juggle debuffs.
I did it just as Tinder described it.
Survival Instincts and Barkskin on 13 stacks, Mirror of Broken Images on 15 and if possible one minor external cd on either the 25th tick (AMZ/HoSac) or Divine Guardian from the 19th stack and onward.
Initially it felt a bit hit-and-miss on the 25th tick, because I would just barely get killed, but then we started using BL at the start, and healer's stacks went up faster and I started surviving.
Imho it feels like having a feral soak crystals is the best alternative for most guilds, since we can actually survive it without losing dps (except for the trinket we have to wear). If you have lots of dps to spare and a set of disc and shadow priests, those are obviously the best combo, since PS and trinket leading up to a Dispersion would reduce damage more, but requires a very specific setup and costs more dps.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby shinryu » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:23 am

Kind of a random mention, but ever since they hotfixed Baleroc so he always leads off with Inferno Blade, hasn't been any problem 3 healing it. Then again, we have a bit better gear since, but still it's much better than before, as if he was getting smashed with Decimation Blade initially, that was always bad news.

Also, just trying to dig up info for heroic mode, what makes it so different with the crystals? I keep seeing people talk about soaking up crystals longer, perhaps someone can explain a bit more?

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Druidohorde » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:15 pm

Our guild finally killed 25man heroic Bale for 6/7Heroic so having been killing this guy since release, I’ll chime in my tips.

First of all, some general strategy discussion for the non heroic discussion. This fight is two healable. We 3 heal it with healers in ALL za/zg gear on our alt runs. Two healing is very doable with proper use of mechanics. That is healers stacking their healing buff. With 2 healers, this is even easier since there is an off/on healing strategy. You’re either healing the tank or your not. Due to the importance of healers carrying their stacks throughout the fight a popular mechanic is to have someone soak all stacks of the shard giving the healers the quickest means to gain stacks since they gain 1 stack heal per 3 debuffs on the shard person. (5 in heroic) This means it is beneficial to stack someone on the very first shard to get the debuff as high as possible. After the first shard, soaking for the full duration of the shard is less important, and not required.

I strongly recommend bloodlust off the start. 1)healers will need it the most to get their stacks up ASAP. 2) dps cooldowns are all available. Point number 1) will carry you throughout the fight.

Another thing, look at your class healers. If you’re using a druid who emphasizes hots you’re basically 2 healing the fight.

Keep healers with HIGH stacks, and healing becomes a breeze, even if the Decimation tank is unlucky with no dodges as your healers are going to be throwing out massive heals.

Heroic 25man DPS Tips:
Prepot. Feral Charge in, have all melee stack behind right leg. Go through your rotation. Shard pops all melee move behind left leg, except 2 melee soaking the shard. Continue rotation. Shard ends, melee with torment move to far right side. Next shard pops behind left leg. Melee move behind right leg, except new soakers. Shard ends, soakers move to left side of boss. Next shard pops behind right leg again, and rinse repeat.
That is a perfect world.
Keep in mind, Countdown will occur and you’ll need to run to designated spot. If you have torment, make sure you don’t spread it around. Countown + Torment(unavoidable) without communication, or melee walking into other melee wipes otherwise perfect raids.
I’m not going to lie… this fight is a huge clusterF$&K in melee on 25man.
If torment spreads, have 3-5 people assigned to backup taking shards. Trust me, you’ll use them all. On heroic, I strongly recommend keeping your raid vent clear, and call out problems with precise, short direction. (ie. Need 2nd soaker for shard 2)  Other than that, vent should be clear as execution of other raid mechanics should be straight forward.

When you move to the side, its very hard to find a sweet spot where you’re far enough to the side to not pose a risk of the melee running into you but not too far to the side where you’re unable to shred. Because of this, I’m not going to lie, I suck at this fight. If you get into a spot where you can’t move b/c there are clean/dirty people around you… you’re screwed.

Pop Barkskin at 4-5 stacks or so, I never use Survival Instincts unless I’m taking more than 13 stacks. If you’re dying before 13 stacks, it’s a healer problem and don’t let them blame you.

Our dps is fairly high. We run with atleast 5-6 people mid 30k range. I think I counted 18dps? The lowest at around 22k. We had a few 1% wipes into the enrage. On average, Id estimate you need about 26k for 25man to beat the enrage.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Grenache » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:18 am

Can someone confirm what the minimum range melee can be in without passing on your Tormented to another melee? Trying to devise a strategy for a 9 melee group with 3 groups of 2 soakers. I assume you keep the area closest to the boss free for untormented players to move?

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Re: Baleroc

Postby Druidohorde » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:46 am

Its pretty close.... melee range with a small hitbox. Like almost touching them type thing.

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Re: Baleroc

Postby redline » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:28 pm

We go with untormented melee inside his red targetting circle, and tormented melee fanning out behind them at maximum melee range. As soon as your debuff drops you run inside his targetting circle. There's plenty of room for the melee to fan out leaving enough space in between for the untormented melee to run past for countdown w/o getting passed the debuff.

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