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Tier 13 set bonus

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:36 pm

Bold the issue with the 4 set bonus isn't that it provides no utility for target switches. It does that very well. However if any fight exists that we arn't target switching every 30 seconds its going to be a DPS loss over our previous 4p bonus. Making something that should be part of the class into a set bonus is kinda cheap. According to Leaf's early math if you are able to use it on cooldown you need to do it in 2 seconds or we lose out over what we have right now. That isn't very good for a 4p.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:00 am

I think we are overestimating the amount of time that is spent out of range when one runs out to charge. Following is an estimate I just posted on elitistjerks. The one thing I still need to test is the behavior of spell range on targets with different maximum melee range values but I strongly suspect it behaves the way I have assumed.

If feral run speed is 9.1 yards/second, then in principle you should only be out of range for 8/9.1 = 0.88 seconds, plus a very small travel time for charge itself. Here I assume that spell ranges are measured relative to maximum melee range. Anecdotally this seems to be true -- targets with a larger melee range tend to have a larger minimum range for charge -- but I have not measured this explicitly for differently-sized targets. However, some quick stopwatch measurements with a target dummy appear to corroborate this assumption for both feral charge minimum range (8 yards) and 40 yard faerie fire. In particular, the time I measure between maximum melee range and minimum charge range is very close to the 0.88 seconds figure (again, only for the target dummy).

Realistically you won't be running directly out as you will want to maintain facing with the target in order to avoid delays due to reaction time. You may also need to add up to twice your latency -- once for the server to tell the client that you are outside minimum range and again for the client to tell the server to cast charge (I'm not sure how the WoW netcode works; this may not be necessary). Let's be generous and say you're running out at a 30 degree angle to the radius vector; this will scale run time by about 1.15, bringing the figure up to 1.02 seconds. Let's also say you have a latency of 150 ms and the netcode is such that you do need to add twice the latency. This brings the total time to 1.32 seconds. The travel time for charge is difficult to measure because it is so short (remember this is the time for charge to return you within maximum melee range, which can be much less than the total leap time). My stopwatch measurements impose an upper bound for this time at about 0.35 seconds; let's assume this is the travel time. Then the total time is 1.67 seconds.


There is, of course, the question of whether the tier 13 encounters will support feral charging. For what it's worth, this can be done safely on every Firelands fight except Ragnaros and Baleroc, and it's doable on the latter if sufficient caution is exercised.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby BoldTM » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:25 am

@Tinderhoof: I agree that to a tank and spank fight is kind of so and so. I just wanted to point out that its not all negative set bonus. Yes in a tank and spank its not very good but how many will it be? We should look at the whole picture and not focusing what it is bad for. I rather get this set bonus if our current drawbacks with our specc is not fixed for 4.3. The same was my comment on the 4T raidwall we got, they most comments was about that it was bad since we cant dps and not "whoo we get a very good raidwall that is only available to tanks and us".

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:46 pm

BoldTM wrote:@ 4T FR: We cant complain that we are given yet a very good raid utility that we can use. I dont understand why giving us a very powerful raid wall is a bad thing. Yes we cant dps, that much, but its a very good tool to use. And we are the only dps class that are able to use the new tank raidwalls since Warrior, Palas and DK need to get tank tier. We perhaps need to look out of the dps box a bit since we are a very powerful hybrid class.


A DPS spec should first and foremost excel at DPS. Itemization that runs counter to "doing lots of damage" as a DPS class is a detriment to the overall health of the spec. Utility coming at a massive personal cost is poorly designed utility (For a example on how to give a DPS class a powerful raid utility cooldown, look at Rallying Cry.).

Stenhaldi wrote:I think we are overestimating the amount of time that is spent out of range when one runs out to charge. Following is an estimate I just posted on elitistjerks. The one thing I still need to test is the behavior of spell range on targets with different maximum melee range values but I strongly suspect it behaves the way I have assumed.


The value I used by default in Mew is on the conservative side, intentionally. You're leaving out reaction time as well which is fairly substantial for something like this ("optimal" behavior despite being a crude stab involves some Rake and CD micro management. Additionally the code by default times running out so that the charge will fire right as it comes off cooldown, which is somewhat impractical.). At a lower bound the mental processing workload will be on the order of 190 ms, though that's the baseline figure for doing a simple comparison (Posner MI (2005) Timing the Brain: Mental Chronometry as a Tool in Neuroscience. PLoS Biol 3(2): e51. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.0030051), but I would expect it to be considerably higher especially since raids have more things than sitting and watching timers.

YMMV.
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:09 pm

I was careful to formulate the course of action such that reaction time doesn't even enter in. If you maintain facing with the target, then you can simply spam feral charge and it will fire as soon as range supports it. I did not consider the interval between keypresses, however; on average the charge will be delayed by half this interval, which will generally be substantially less than reaction time but is still nonzero.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:45 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:I was careful to formulate the course of action such that reaction time doesn't even enter in. If you maintain facing with the target, then you can simply spam feral charge and it will fire as soon as range supports it. I did not consider the interval between keypresses, however; on average the charge will be delayed by half this interval, which will generally be substantially less than reaction time but is still nonzero.


Right, well that's the point really. People are certainly free to sim things with lower travel times if the want (and that's why it's configurable), but realistically unless you're fighting something that resembles a target dummy, the actual decision + travel time is going to be considerably higher than the theoretical minimum.

Say that the minimum time is established to be.... 1.5 sec. In order to obtain close to optimal results, you need to be able to judge when Feral Charge is coming off cooldown (Run out exactly at duration - 1.5 sec), while honoring a guard condition around Rake, and not making a total mess of whatever else you're doing (As in, "Should I run out" is the last thing one looks at when deciding what to do at any given moment.).

From a meta perspective:
Is a set bonus that requires a robot to utilize it effectively a good bonus?
Are play styles that requires a robot to not cost DPS a good idea?
Is it a good idea to tack more conditionals onto a 20+ deep priority list?

It should be fairly obvious that I am/was in the "No" camp for all those things (not to be mistaken as "I want to see the spec dumbed down, there are ways to have meaningful complexity/dynamism without requiring a unrealistic amount of precision/decision making".), but like I said, the tool supports whatever behavior/delay people want so if they disagree, it can give inflated values for 4T12 all day.
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Leafkiller » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:54 pm

Here is the code we use to model running away in Mew:

Code: Select all
if (mIsModelingAggressiveFeralCharge && !interruptSoon) {
      double travelTime = mFeralChargeTotalTime;

      // Running away right as you are about to cast Tranquility or Rebirth is a DPS loss, avoid it.
      //
      // Note: The engine will force the "player" to hold the GCD for Rebirth/Tranquility so include
      // some padding when figuring out if we can do this or not.
      if (status.nextUtilityCastIn() > travelTime + 2) {
         // Some bosses allow us to Feral Charge at point blank range.
         if (travelTime > 0) {
            // WARNING - This is still relatively unoptimized.  There's clearly a point where it's not worth
            // attempting to do this at all (too much DPS time lost, ~3 sec).
            //
            // Note: The script will time it so that you run out right when Feral Charge is going to come off
            // CD when you are done.
            //
            // Per Leafkiller, ensuring that Rake won't fall off is a minimal gain.  Micro managing this
            // around both Rake/Rip is fairly minimal due to Rake/Rip having massively higher priority.
            if (!(mIsModelingInterrupts && status.nextCastIn() < travelTime) && !(status.isBerserkUp() || status.isTigersFuryUp()) && status.getFeralChargeCD() < travelTime)
               if (status.getRakeRemaining() > travelTime + 2.9)
                  return Action.RUNAWAY;
         }
      }
   }


This is actually very aggressively written as it tries to run out before FC is even off of cooldown (this have not been optimized for two ravages). I included it to help people understand when it is ok to run out.

Now the distance you need to go to run out is dependent on the targets hit box and where you are standing relative to that hit box. You cannot assume you will always be standing at max melee range, and most of the time you will be closer than that so as to avoid going in and out of range of the boss as it moves around. There are also AOE healing considerations - for example running out of a healing circle during a period of extreme raid damage may be hazardess to your health. There is also the question of where you end up at the end of the FC. Anyone else experienced being too far forward on Cho'gall after a feral charge and getting an error on your next attack. When you FC in, you are usually pretty deep into the hit box.

If we want to argue about tenths of seconds, then we have to take a much deeper look at the minute positioning that happens on each fight. If the argument is that this is good for adds, then we have to know what the frequency of the adds is. Also with regard to reflexes and fight lag, there is not only lag due to latency, but there is also game lag on our cooldown monitors, and game lag from addons, especially any addons that are hooking into the combat log (which includes our cooldown monitors). If you start with your .88 seconds, add in .3 seconds for game lag, perhaps another .2 seconds because you are not at the edge of the hit box, another .1 second for addon lag, and .2 seconds for human lag (which is being generous), and you can see how the time starts growing. If you happen to end up in a bad spot after the FC, perhaps because the mob moved, or on Cho'gall you ended up too far forward, then you have to deal with time to recognize where you are plus repositioning, which can easily be another half second or more. There is just a lot of little things that can add up when the window is so small. My guess is that most people will end up losing dps trying to do this, and/or get themselves killed by ending up in crap. God forbid you are a little tired...

Our current 4 set bonus is worth just over 2.5% dps if we are on a fight where Berserk can be optimized (I am not a fan of the t12 4 piece because it is still fight dependent). The t13 4 set bonus is even more situational, and to realize any sort of gain out of it, we have to adopt a pretty odd fight mechanic, periodically running out and FCing back in, while avoiding crap on the floor, staying in healing range, and any other fight requirements (like grouping up to share damage on some fights).

If you have never done so, go spend some time on a training dummy running out on FC cooldowns. There is code in my Ovale script that calculates an optimum time to do so. Try different directions, try different training dummies (so you can experience some of the terrain issues) and see how it feels. Also note where you end up after you run out.

I personally think this is a stupid set bonus. I don't think our rotation should be built around running out and FCing back in. But that is just my opinion.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:24 pm

It doesn't matter whether you're at maximum melee range or closer - your swings won't cease until you exceed that range, so while the entire action may take longer the net loss does not change. It's also not that important that you use feral charge exactly on cooldown; for each second that you wait you lose only about 1/28 of its potential value (this is the largest possible figure, taken in the limit that you're still charging close to the cooldown). Therefore the concern about interference with rake is, I think, unwarranted. This also means you can accommodate most encounter mechanics with minimal loss. Also, it's possible to formulate this action such that human and interface latency don't even enter in; I described this previously and I would consider it to be realistic in that it's the way I would be handling it even had I not thought about it.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby BoldTM » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:57 pm

@Leaf: The code seems not take in account current energy level? Dont know if it should since then it will be quite alot of things to look for before going out for a FC. So instead of pooling energy, should we not just move out and FC back?

Then again we are discussion the fight where we should state is the worst case scenario for the set bonus. Do we think that there will be any fight where it is important with dps in a tank and spank scenario? Is there any fight in Firelands where we should not want this set bonus currently?

Yes we all agree that in a tank and spank fight the set bonus regardless if its X or Y dps is lame since we need to move out to activate the bonus.

But in a adds or target switching fight is this not exactly what we wanted to get buffed in our class review? Cut the ramp up time? I think it will not make it through PTR since it is kind if OP in a add fight. Even PvP it is kind of good, one leap, 2 ravage and one Mangle and FB, its alot of dps on a very short time frame.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Leafkiller » Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:44 pm

The Mew script only calls the Stampede code if nothing else is executed - so if energy is going to cap within a second, it will cast a Shred instead. Also, OOC will be dealt with. I know in my Ovale code I do check for energy cap - and we might want to change this to look for energy cap in 2 seconds, but if we do that, we will also have to use up the energy so that the FC is not delayed too much (i.e. add a conditional to call shred with 2 seconds remaining until energy cap that checks for in combat non-zero FCing).

There is certainly work that can be done to optimize this, and it is something that I am sure we will work on if the set bonus stays unchanged.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Mitty » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:08 am

I too am disappointed in the 4 piece bonus. Having another cooldown timer to watch, and then strafe out while attacking is unrealistic imo. And certainly not "fun." Remember how relieved most of us were when we no longer had to track the t11 bonus?

Fights will obviously be different in t13 content, but we can be confident that positional hazards will remain a core mechanic of most fights. Let's look at current tier and see how practical the FC requirement would be in normal difficulty:

Rag - can't use it on Rag period due to FC position, not to mention lava waves and engulfing flames restricting our movement. On Son adds, I would typically start in bear form to use bash from melee range, not sure if the burst damage from ravage would allow me to forgo the extra stun.

Domo - could use it in cat phase, but not scorpion.

Baleroc - sorry, no chance here since we are among the best soakers, and need to stay stacked up when not soaking for crystal placement.

Alys - very useful here.

Rhyo - very difficult to stay at max melee range due to "sliding feet," lava might also inhibit us from using it reliably.

Beth - enough target switching that it may be useful if you go up, I almost never stay down so it's hard for me to evaluate.

Shannox - traps and lack of control over your landing spot effectively prohibit FC, if you manage to dodge them while running out, you may hit one when you charge in.

I see the futility in using current tier content to evaluate the next tier bonus, but the point is that Blizz's current design philosophy does not mesh well with this bonus. And I don't think they will be designing their encounters around one spec's tier bonus, especially since they are already throwing us a bone with the melee buff.

I hope the tier bonus doesn't survive the ptr.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby shinryu » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:24 pm

Actually, it's possible to use it on Staghelm if careful, for scorpion we're on his armpits anyways to shred, and transitioning from his back (where FC dumps us) to side is easy enough, or just flat out running in front of him from the back if you need to hurry. Baleroc, I guess it depends on what strategy you use (and crystal location), but FC on him isn't a problem as long as it's not your turn to crystal soak and the crystal isn't on his ass. Rhyolith and Beth I agree it's impractical, but Shannox is easy, FC is great in general for just catching up to running dogs.

That being said though, I do agree the 4p should burn in hell.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Rawf » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:25 pm

shinryu wrote:Baleroc, I guess it depends on what strategy you use (and crystal location), but FC on him isn't a problem as long as it's not your turn to crystal soak and the crystal isn't on his ass. Rhyolith and Beth I agree it's impractical, but Shannox is easy, FC is great in general for just catching up to running dogs.


For Baleroc you would have to avoid crystals AND avoid everyone else with tormented (on heroic). Difficult, especially if your melee soakers get unlucky or make a mistake.

I'm not sure about your strat for Shannox but my guild (and a lot of other guilds) completely ignore dogs except for 1 or 2 mages that break face rage (and the tank obv). So catching up to running dogs isn't something I ever need to do.


Considering the fact that melee are getting a damage buff just to keep up with casters makes me think that there will be a LOT of adds and target switching (and the fact that 2 of the boss fights are Deathwing, we can't kill him twice in 1 raid). 4pt13 might be pretty bad single target but with a 100% crit chance on targets over 80% hp, rip will be up in a couple of GCDs guaranteed.

EDIT: Addition. Just skimming boss abilities there seems to be a lot of movement / gtfo of stuff so 4p may still be good for this tier.
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby shinryu » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:57 pm

Oh you were referring to heroic...sorry I just assume people are talking about Reg unless they mention it's heroic somewhere.

Yeah inthat case you're right then in that it is impractical to use on Baleroc, though you can fit them in on Shannox still, we use the strategy when you kite him around at Alysrazor's place from point a to b when you freeze a dog to clear the debuff, so for me it's easy to fit in FC while moving, as this way results in less traps being grouped, haven't landed on any yet.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby shinryu » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:36 pm

Darn...was a bit excited when I heard some t13 bonuses were changed, but unfortunately not cat >.>

Feral, 2P -- Pulverize now also grants your Mangle (Bear) critical strikes a 100% chance to trigger Savage Defense, and your Blood in the Water talent now causes Ferocious Bite to refresh the duration of your Rip on targets with 60% or less health.

Feral, 4P -- Frenzied Regeneration also affects all raid and party members. This effect cannot be triggered if you have been in Bear Form for less than 15 sec. In addition, your Stampede talent now grants two charges after using Feral Charge (Cat).

Not sure what it means exactly for Bears, though I know quite a few dislike taking Pulverize to begin with, and now being forced to take it and use it or not have any bonuses at all for 2p, dunno how appealing that might be...I would think the old bonus would be better, but again, not a bear, so dunno. It also does definitively clear any confusion with the cat 2p as well, FBs for anything 60% and lower.

And they clearly don't want cats to give a raid wall by putting a 15 second min. Bear form in place for the 4p; not that I mind much, but obviously you can plan for big burn phases and still shift into bear and kill off your dps a lot if it means surviving. Now if only they'd get to reworking the cat portion...

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:49 pm

Ok, so there was 3 million more changes that I needed to do since they changed bonuses around, and Mew supports more than Cat.

Change log/current progress: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid- ... tail?id=25
Alpha: http://mew-wow-druid-model.googlecode.c ... 4.3PTR.zip

Script logic is unchanged except that it's aware of Glyph of Bloodletting (and will use it when frontal attacks are specified).

The importer is smart about the fact that the Glyph was renamed and will do the right thing, but datafile backward compatibility breaks just about every Mew release. If you save a profile with the alpha build, and import it in an older one, you will need to reselect Glyph of Shred.
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:26 pm

Yawning wrote:Ok, so there was 3 million more changes that I needed to do since they changed bonuses around, and Mew supports more than Cat.


Tough to work on your chess game with all those changes...

I think I am going to change my mind on the 4 piece T13 set bonus. Since Blizzard uses empirical data to balance dps across the different classes, it is not necessary that we have a set bonus that increases our dps uniformly on every fight. If, after lots of classes have their 4 piece set bonus, our dps is significantly lower, Blizz will adjust it. So rather than having a set bonus that simply gives us more dps, why not have a set bonus that provides situational benefits? A little utility on some fights is fine as long as our dps stays competitive.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby shinryu » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:46 pm

Leafkiller wrote:
Yawning wrote:Ok, so there was 3 million more changes that I needed to do since they changed bonuses around, and Mew supports more than Cat.


Tough to work on your chess game with all those changes...

I think I am going to change my mind on the 4 piece T13 set bonus. Since Blizzard uses empirical data to balance dps across the different classes, it is not necessary that we have a set bonus that increases our dps uniformly on every fight. If, after lots of classes have their 4 piece set bonus, our dps is significantly lower, Blizz will adjust it. So rather than having a set bonus that simply gives us more dps, why not have a set bonus that provides situational benefits? A little utility on some fights is fine as long as our dps stays competitive.

But if odds are that it's going to be such an impractical bonus to use, why not nip the bud before having to deal with lower competitive dps and waiting for slowe-ass devs to change it?

Besides it doesn't really offer anymore utility than FC gives anyways right now; if an encounter has something you can use FC on already, you use it as a gap closer. To me, that's all FC is and what its intent is, a gap closer instead of having to run every time, Stampede and the free Ravage didn't even exist a bit more than a year ago, so no one even really used either ability in wotlk. Hell it's not even a baseline ability, you have to talent for it anyways. Having to run out of combat on CD to use it is not utility, it's just dumb.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:22 pm

I think I am inbetween you and Leaf here Shin.

If you think about the 4p bonus its is AMAZING for a target switch. What do we normally have to deal with when changing to a new target? Little to 0 energy unless we were lucky and 0 combo points. If the target is a new with 80% life we will have 100% chance to get 4 combo points and 2 crits likely hitting for at least 80k for 10 energy. That will jump start the rotation as all we need to do is mangle, rip and rake and we are off.

Now the problem is that only addresses 1 aspect of a fight. If we don't target swap, every 30 seconds it becomes more like a flavor aspect that should be a talent not a 4p bonus. If we take a look at the other melee dps 4p bonuses we see all of them are helping boost damage on every single type of fight:
•DK DPS, 4P -- Runic Empowerment has a 25% chance and Runic Corruption has a 40% chance to also grant 710 mastery rating for 12 sec when activated.
•Retribution, 4P -- While Zealotry is active your abilities deal 12% more damage.
•4P -- Increases the duration of Shadow Dance by 2 sec, Adrenaline Rush by 3 sec, and Vendetta by 9 sec.
•Enhancement, 4P -- Your Feral Spirits have a 45% chance to grant you a charge of Maelstrom Weapon each time they deal damage.
•DPS, 4P -- Your Raging Blow and Mortal Strike abilities have a 13% chance to apply the Colossus Smash effect on your target for 6 sec.

Now all of these save the pali have a proc flavor to them, however none of those procs will be fight dependent. No one has to modify their entire play in a possbily dangrous way to make use of their 4p, it just happens.

If every fight we have to run out anyway, or target swap often then this will help keep us in line with other folks. It is kind of a bummer that our 4p won't give us much flavor but hey at least it's something. It will also be fun in world PVP.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:27 pm

Leafkiller wrote:Tough to work on your chess game with all those changes...


You still have that correspondence thing? I lost the link. :(

Tinderhoof wrote:If you think about the 4p bonus its is AMAZING for a target switch. What do we normally have to deal with when changing to a new target? Little to 0 energy unless we were lucky and 0 combo points. If the target is a new with 80% life we will have 100% chance to get 4 combo points and 2 crits likely hitting for at least 80k for 10 energy. That will jump start the rotation as all we need to do is mangle, rip and rake and we are off.


Except it's not, it's just that the target swap use case is the only one that doesn't promote massive amounts of dumb.

Assuming you pool or hold TF into a swap (if you don't you are losing Rake uptime, grats.)...

Without the bonus: FC->Mangle->Rake->Ravage!->Rip
With the bonus: FC->Mangle->Rake->Ravage!->Rip->Ravage!

I'm reasonably confident that Rake over a second Ravage! is better (target HP dependent, but you get better uptime). Assuming 50% yellow crit, 75% of the time, Mangle + Rake + Ravage! will provide 5-6 CPs. Energy situation permitting, when that doesn't happen you would be better off using Shred to gain another CP (instead of using the 2nd Ravage!) because that gains you 0.5 CP to your next finisher, so it doesn't change the fact that there's zero time saving in your ramp up.

The gain on target swap is identical to the gains observable assuming you presently do use Ravage! mid-encounter vs a single target (1xRavage!/FC), nothing more, nothing less.

Now, 4t13 is better for extremely short lived adds ("Not worth using Rake" amounts of short lived) but that isn't all that common, and your DPS even with 4t13 is still going to be somewhat terrible (since you would swap/burst and then be stuck off target).
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Kojo » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:29 pm

Going with the 4pc being a free ravage deal they're going for (I'm not too keen on that really but whatever) what if the 4pc made tigers fury give a free ravage as well instead of charge giving 2?

*shrug* guess it don't matter, just the peanut in my head rattling around.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby shinryu » Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:44 pm

Kojo wrote:Going with the 4pc being a free ravage deal they're going for (I'm not too keen on that really but whatever) what if the 4pc made tigers fury give a free ravage as well instead of charge giving 2?

*shrug* guess it don't matter, just the peanut in my head rattling around.

Well that'd make it a lot more attractive if it were tied to 2 free Ravages on TF over FC, not only do you not look retarded running out to FC, you get to stay in melee range and not miss out on damage, as well as not losing out on FC's many liabilities.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby ShmooDude » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:36 pm

Yawning wrote:
Leafkiller wrote:Tough to work on your chess game with all those changes...


You still have that correspondence thing? I lost the link. :(

Tinderhoof wrote:If you think about the 4p bonus its is AMAZING for a target switch. What do we normally have to deal with when changing to a new target? Little to 0 energy unless we were lucky and 0 combo points. If the target is a new with 80% life we will have 100% chance to get 4 combo points and 2 crits likely hitting for at least 80k for 10 energy. That will jump start the rotation as all we need to do is mangle, rip and rake and we are off.


Except it's not, it's just that the target swap use case is the only one that doesn't promote massive amounts of dumb.

Assuming you pool or hold TF into a swap (if you don't you are losing Rake uptime, grats.)...

Without the bonus: FC->Mangle->Rake->Ravage!->Rip
With the bonus: FC->Mangle->Rake->Ravage!->Rip->Ravage!

I'm reasonably confident that Rake over a second Ravage! is better (target HP dependent, but you get better uptime). Assuming 50% yellow crit, 75% of the time, Mangle + Rake + Ravage! will provide 5-6 CPs. Energy situation permitting, when that doesn't happen you would be better off using Shred to gain another CP (instead of using the 2nd Ravage!) because that gains you 0.5 CP to your next finisher, so it doesn't change the fact that there's zero time saving in your ramp up.

The gain on target swap is identical to the gains observable assuming you presently do use Ravage! mid-encounter vs a single target (1xRavage!/FC), nothing more, nothing less.

Now, 4t13 is better for extremely short lived adds ("Not worth using Rake" amounts of short lived) but that isn't all that common, and your DPS even with 4t13 is still going to be somewhat terrible (since you would swap/burst and then be stuck off target).


Seems to me like you're possibly making some bad assumptions here:
1) Pooling energy isn't always going to keep you above 52 energy (the amount required for your without bonus opener [35+35+25-43(7.5% haste)])
2) I often refresh bleeds before switching off a target (usually switching off say, the boss to an add, so I want bleeds to be going as long as possible on the boss if we're going to be gone more than 10 seconds). This would drain my energy even considering pooling.
3) You can only save TF if the add is predictable (granted most are), and even then only for so many seconds before you're going to potentially lose TFs down the line.
4) The only people that think that far ahead on add switches are top tier raiders, and Blizzard balances based on more than just top tier.

All that said, still a pretty stupid bonus. But even if you assume you only use it once on a 10 minute fight (the minimum unless its a nonchargeable boss) it still gives 67 DPS (assuming a ~40k crit). Not a lot compared to the almost 700 rawr estimates for the 2pt12 but that is the worst case scenario (long fight + 1 use)

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:18 pm

Kojo wrote:Going with the 4pc being a free ravage deal they're going for (I'm not too keen on that really but whatever) what if the 4pc made tigers fury give a free ravage as well instead of charge giving 2?


This would be somewhat ok. It would need to add a charge to an existing Stampede buff or it's value is slightly lower (since you TF your FC/Ravage! when you can).

An alternative that I thought may be spiffy would be: Omen of Clarity grants two charges upon entering the Clearcasting state.

Using Leafkiller's 378 profile that would be worth approximately 1.7 e/s (+2.91 Shreds/min), for +1.3k DPS (though that's somewhat high, since the chance of you wasting (a portion of) the proc goes up relative to the standard talent).

It's proc-ish, flavorful, useful for every single situation you would be in (AoE, multiple targets, single target), scales reasonably well, and best of all does not promote massive amounts of dumb when playing (Just do what you normally do! Yeah!).

ShmooDude wrote:Seems to me like you're possibly making some bad assumptions here:
1) Pooling energy isn't always going to keep you above 52 energy (the amount required for your without bonus opener [35+35+25-43(7.5% haste)])
2) I often refresh bleeds before switching off a target (usually switching off say, the boss to an add, so I want bleeds to be going as long as possible on the boss if we're going to be gone more than 10 seconds). This would drain my energy even considering pooling.
3) You can only save TF if the add is predictable (granted most are), and even then only for so many seconds before you're going to potentially lose TFs down the line.
4) The only people that think that far ahead on add switches are top tier raiders, and Blizzard balances based on more than just top tier.


1) The energy difference between a 2xRavage! opener and a 1xRavage! Opener is the cost of a Rake (1x CP generator/Rip are constant since 4 cp finishers are retarded, and you need to Rip.). The pool high watermark is ~80 e, and see #3 for why pooling should not be difficult.

2) The value of doing so depends entirely upon the value of damage onto the add, and how much (if any) of the Rip/Rake will end up as overkill. The assumptions I made here was that damage on the secondary target is equal (or greater) value to the primary (Probably true in most situations, secondary targets need to die or there's no point in swapping off to begin with), and that it's worth using bleeds on the add. If damage done to the add is worth less than boss damage, you're better off not swapping entirely or using DPS boosts (like 4T13) on the primary target.

3) I do assume that adds are mostly predictable, yes. Since ideal practice is shaping up to be "Use Ravage! repeatedly single target", if spawns are unpredictable, you run into the exact same issue that you mention (losing a usage) with Ravage! that you do with TF, since you need to hold your charge CD. Unpredictable random adds make the bonus look worse since I would have listed something like:

w/4T13: (50% of the time) Same as without, grats, you used your FC/Ravage!x2 on the boss

4) If you don't plan ahead for predictable switches, your kitty skills are bad and should feel bad. Beyond that, the set bonus is worse for people that suck because they either won't have their FC timer available for the switch, or will badly screw up using it for single targets.

*shrugs*

It's obvious that I hate it (not that my opinion should carry much value since I'm at best a "mildly interested 3rd party"). To me, it encourages a play style that is counter intuitive to being a melee class, forces you to trade off mobility and single target damage, and at the end of the day isn't that great even if you happen to be able to execute/plan with robotic precision.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Dysheki » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:40 pm

At first I was just shrugging my shoulders, but the more time this sinks in the more frustrated I get with the 4 piece bonus.
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