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Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Hollyrae » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:17 am

I totally forgot when I logged off last night that I had this post up. I'll edit this or report when I change my spec/gear back. In the mean time, here is my gear at least: http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/us/ ... /hollyrae/
Edit: Spec is up at: http://www.wowhead.com/profile=us.scarl ... ae#talents

Just some comments on your comments.

Puna wrote:Tol'vir Potion: 25seconds. Why u no prepot D: And you Didn't use your pot during a berserk?

We have a "quick on the trigger" tank. He doesn't correctly time pulls so it's hard to reliably pre-pop. Before FL I never potted at all, so I'm just getting used to doing it at all, let alone with berserk. That is something I can work on though :)

Puna wrote:Rip uptime: 81.9% Low
rake uptime: 91.9% Not bad, but could improve
SR uptime : 73.7% Low

How are you tracking your bleeds and debuffs?

...
Should Feral Charge off the pull for a free Ravage!

...
FFF was not on the boss for 8% of the fight, 12% free damage :(

I'm tracking my debuffs with DroodFocus. The reason I'm not getting ravage or FFF up as much is because of my hybrid spec (which, of course, you couldn't see because of my resto spec >.<). I don't have stampede or the two extra stacks of FFF. Though, the other druid should be managing FFF for me... (and after checking, he was. We had 92% uptime: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/clcq ... 52&e=10177)

Puna wrote:TL:DR version: Line up your CD's with berserk inlcluding your potion, pot of the pull, and work on improving your bleed uptimes.

If all I take from this is to line things up better and work on my uptimes, then I'm happy.
Last edited by Hollyrae on Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby mekell » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:24 am

I am still working on increasing my bleed uptimes, myself.

The problem i am having is "A more powerful spell is already active" preventing me from refreshing rip in situations that i see its going to fall off at a bad time (when i cant refresh it, because im off target for example).

My rip is frequently modified with either synapse springs or petrified seed combined with tigers fury. That is to say, every time i use tiger's fury, i also always use the seed or synapse. It works out that between the 2 trinkets, every TF is modified. The following rip refresh cycle can be problematic because its typically not modified because TF is down, and i get the "more powerful spell already active" meaning i cant refresh it until it completely falls off. This seems to happen at the worst times.

Any thoughts on this? I hate to not modify my rips as much as i am, but ultimately its causing me some uptime issues (usually hovering between 85-89%). And honestly im not sure its an issue with the trinkets as much as it is refreshing a rip that has TF on it.
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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Puna » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:58 am

Im trying to get my GM to update an addon he made where it can track damage from a source and modify the colour if the damage is benefiting from anything (pots/TF/trinket etc) If it does i'll post a link but its good to know so that you have a visual and can tell when you shouldn't be worrying about it.

On the other hand, if its saying, another, more power spell is active, then you're clipping your rake/rip too soon (aside from target switches/downtime)

You should be clipping rip on the last tick (t < 2s) and same goes for rake (t < 3s), unless you just TF'd and you have t<9 seconds left then its alright to clip for the tf'd rake. (although I tend to hold out to the last few seconds of TF to reapply rake)

A good addon (and a shameless plug) to track your stats at any given time during combat is stat hustler, my GM Kliegs made it for and I use it to track stat changes. (If you are the proud owner of a matrix restaibilzer and hate mousing over it to know what proc'd...this works reeaaaallly good, and please PM me if you have any comments/bugs/ideas for improving it.)

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Badkitty » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:59 pm

Hollyrae wrote:I'm tracking my debuffs with DroodFocus. The reason I'm not getting ravage or FFF up as much is because of my hybrid spec (which, of course, you couldn't see because of my resto spec >.<). I don't have stampede or the two extra stacks of FFF. Though, the other druid should be managing FFF for me... (and after checking, he was. We had 92% uptime: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/clcq ... 52&e=10177)


Buwahahaha... I'm that other druid. I don't always get fff off right off the bat because it's macro'd to my charge and charging on a raid boss isn't always the best thing to do. I'll be looking into an alternative macro and/or just paying attention and having it be the first thing I do.
Also, despite getting a free ravage after feral charging I hardly think an additional 25k damage is going to make a difference when there's millions upon millions of damage being done overall.
And to close out this post, before you all analyze my performance, I already know that I need much improvement and I'm working on it
>.<

-BK

PS: I'll be back after I've got something to show for all my hard work :P

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:29 pm

That free ravage at the start of a fight isn't just the ravage damage. It's several things.
1. Quicker to the boss to start the rotation.
2. Almost 100% crit chance means 2 combo points and extra damage for 10 energy.
3. Those 2 extra combo points get your rip started sooner (hopefully during TF).

There is NO reason not to open with Feral charge when ever you can. The only time you can't is Beth and Rag for obious reasons. However it doesn't mean you can't use it on those fights as often as possible, just not on the pull.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Hollyrae » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:34 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:That free ravage at the start of a fight isn't just the ravage damage. It's several things.
1. Quicker to the boss to start the rotation.
2. Almost 100% crit chance means 2 combo points and extra damage for 10 energy.
3. Those 2 extra combo points get your rip started sooner (hopefully during TF).

There is NO reason not to open with Feral charge when ever you can. The only time you can't is Beth and Rag for obious reasons. However it doesn't mean you can't use it on those fights as often as possible, just not on the pull.


I agree, and I would do the ravage if I spec'ed into it. I'm not spec'ed into Stampede, per the thought process about Hybrid specs over at http://theincbear.com/hybrid-feral-guide . Maybe even as a hybrid spec I need to have that talent...

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Leafkiller » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:59 pm

Hollyrae wrote:I agree, and I would do the ravage if I spec'ed into it. I'm not spec'ed into Stampede, per the thought process about Hybrid specs over at http://theincbear.com/hybrid-feral-guide . Maybe even as a hybrid spec I need to have that talent...


Do you really need to carry a hybrid spec vs. simply focusing on either cat or bear or both?

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Hollyrae » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:41 pm

Leafkiller wrote:
Hollyrae wrote:I agree, and I would do the ravage if I spec'ed into it. I'm not spec'ed into Stampede, per the thought process about Hybrid specs over at http://theincbear.com/hybrid-feral-guide . Maybe even as a hybrid spec I need to have that talent...


Do you really need to carry a hybrid spec vs. simply focusing on either cat or bear or both?


In our raid I can mainly focus on Cat. Our raid has put me in the position where I need to actually be the off-tank on some fights though. Also, my other spec is resto. I'm basically trying to fill all 3 roles here :( I'll talk with my guild to see if I can focus on melee for my non-resto spec.

For further discussion assume I'll change my spec to allow me to ravage so we can talk about something else, unless someone wants to make the point that it's needed even for the hybrid spec (then I want to hear the reasoning behind that).

Edit: Just noticed my spec is up at: http://www.wowhead.com/profile=us.scarl ... ae#talents (click "Feral")

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Druidohorde » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:29 pm

Stampede is pretty huge.

Its used multiple times on:
Majordomo, Pull+returning from seeds
Aly - FC between adds, and to the boss when he lands
Beth - moving between boss + adds

I'd lose your hybrid spec for sure. Sometimes I tank as well. During the trash I go respec, and I reglyph, and reforge. The raid loves you for it, and it costs what 100g, and 100g back?

If you're going to do something, do it right ... imo.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Badkitty » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:47 am

We've had him tank adds on Nef and tank Chimeron (not the double strikes) before otherwise he's used his tanking in raids when another tank dies and it's honestly turned wipes into kills. Having 2 tank deaths in a fight isn't very clean and it only happened on our first attempts but his ability to off tank is what got us our kill. Sure it's not ideal but it's not completely worthless either.
I'm far from being a good druid, I mean, I have better gear than Holly yet he manages to almost always out dps me and that's my fault but I'm trying. I personally love feral charge and I've almost always had 2 points into stampede so I could do the free ravage for that extra bit of damage, hell I even had pounce in there for the initial bleed and cp (until I actually read the damn thing and realized that it blew unless you were in pvp because then the stun is pretty awesome) but now I've cleaned up my charge macro to just include the ravage and fff.
Anyway, I've said my two cents, I'm not gonna make excuses I'm just gonna flat out say that I suck (which is why I'm leveling a shaman to help free up that melee slot for an up and coming rogue.)

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Hollyrae » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:37 am

So, I re-spec'ed (primarily for proper discussion, I can go back later) last night and we did 5/7 on Firelands Normal. I logged out in my proper gear, so lets' try this again.

Character: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... e/advanced
WoL: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i95u ... ?enc=kills (Shannox N, Baleroc N)

Comments: I potted for Shannox, and I thought I did for Baleroc, but it's not popping up there (again, working on this, haven't used potions before 2-3 weeks ago). I still need work on my rip uptime. This was our third kill of Baleroc and we are still having some issues with the crystals, that can be my only reason I can think of for it not being around 90% =/. I'll continue top work on that.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:12 pm

Hollyrae wrote:So, I re-spec'ed (primarily for proper discussion, I can go back later) last night and we did 5/7 on Firelands Normal. I logged out in my proper gear, so lets' try this again.

Character: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... e/advanced
WoL: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i95u ... ?enc=kills (Shannox N, Baleroc N)

Comments: I potted for Shannox, and I thought I did for Baleroc, but it's not popping up there (again, working on this, haven't used potions before 2-3 weeks ago). I still need work on my rip uptime. This was our third kill of Baleroc and we are still having some issues with the crystals, that can be my only reason I can think of for it not being around 90% =/. I'll continue top work on that.

Hey Hollyrae. Late welcome to the community.

I have been very busy at work and have had some real bad luck with guilds lately so I wasnt' able to get a look at your first set of logs. Thanks Puna for having a look.

Gearing - You should really look into replacing Unheeded Warning with The Achient Petrified Seed. Make sure you put it in the same macro as TF so you don't forget to use it. Try to line it up with Berserk as well for best results.

Baleroc - So I think you have made some real positive steps here. While your Rip uptime could use a little work (82%) your rake up time was great (96%). It looks like near the end during execute phase Rip dropped off for a kinda long while. What happened there? As for the Poting, I have found that WOL will not see if you Pre Potted unless you pot a second time. It will only see buffs you gained after the encounter started. Good job lining up Tigers Fury with Berserk, it helps a lot. I ran you though some sims as I dont' have as much experience at your gear level and at ten man. You were within 1k dps of its expected which is pretty good.

One thing you do need to do is get your hands on your ret pali and slap the everloving crap out of him for not casting might. 10% AP is a BIG DAMN DEAL. Make sure you have some buff bars up so you can call his lazy ass out again if he forgets.

If you get Might all the time and pick up Seed, I expect that you will see a very decent improvment. Also if you can afford the BOE Polearm from Firelands trash get it till you can get your hands on fire kitty staff.

Hope that helps and Good Luck on Staghelm!

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Hollyrae » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:17 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Hey Hollyrae. Late welcome to the community.

Thanks :)

Tinderhoof wrote:Gearing - You should really look into replacing Unheeded Warning with The Achient Petrified Seed. Make sure you put it in the same macro as TF so you don't forget to use it. Try to line it up with Berserk as well for best results.

I will as soon as I hit revered. We were really late getting into Firelands. I'm a little ahead of the curve in regards to our guild.

Tinderhoof wrote:It looks like near the end during execute phase Rip dropped off for a kinda long while. What happened there?

Like I said, this was our third kill, and it gets a little hectic towards the end. I'm one of the three on crystals and honestly I'm just getting distracted during the end of the fight. I probably just need a much better alert that rip is not on my target.

Tinderhoof wrote:Also if you can afford the BOE Polearm from Firelands trash get it till you can get your hands on fire kitty staff.

Last one went to Badkitty (who posted above a little), so blame him :) I'm in the position with 4.3 coming that I won't waste my gold on it, but if I was much earlier in the raid cycle I would. that's just personal preference though.

Tinderhoof wrote:Hope that helps and Good Luck on Staghelm!

Yes. Thank you for your time.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Puna » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:30 pm

Totally derp'd on the trinkets there, which is bad considering I just wrote a big ol' paragraph on RR's forums about feral trinkets lol - good catch tinder.

And yes, WoL only counts buffs "gained" during combat so a pre-pot is technically gained pre-combat, and therefore by extension, not counted. However, how you can track it by looking at the length of time the buff was present during the encounter, providing you pot again, and if the time > 25 seconds, you double potted :D

I'll go further then that with the buffs though. Not only was might missing for multiple attempts, MoTW was to D:

Watch yer buffs, and make sure your 2 hunters are bringing pets that buff the raid. Attack speed, 3% physical damage etc. They both brought HoW pets which the dk brings. Simple things that can improve the raids output :D

<3 Puna

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:17 pm

I will as soon as I hit revered. We were really late getting into Firelands. I'm a little ahead of the curve in regards to our guild.

Sorry I didn't even look and I should have. Assumptions assumptions. They make asses out of Umptions. They don't like that.

Like I said, this was our third kill, and it gets a little hectic towards the end. I'm one of the three on crystals and honestly I'm just getting distracted during the end of the fight. I probably just need a much better alert that rip is not on my target.

Not a big deal here, was just wondering if you had to go brez someone or what not. I know the first few kills are never your "Ranking" parses. Things will get better with time and pratice. Like I said, you did well for your gear level.

Last one went to Badkitty (who posted above a little), so blame him.

We really arn't about blame here on the forums. Nor are we about making fun of and talking down too. Bad Kitty seemed to feel that he might be made fun of which isn't really tolerated here. We want to help the community here. We are not EJ's and we don't ever want to be. Here there are no stupid questions, just folks who want to learn. The only people we feel are stupid are the ones who feel they have nothing left to learn.

I'm in the position with 4.3 coming that I won't waste my gold on it, but if I was much earlier in the raid cycle I would. that's just personal preference though

I can't stress this enough, "It's not a waste of gold!" The staff you have now is below T11 normal mode. Our weapons give more DPS to us then any other piece 3 pieces combined (excluding trinkets). The jump you would get between the the staff you have now and the polearm could mean 2k dps or more. Don't assume that when the new tier comes out new staffs or polearms will be available right away. I had to wait almost a month before I got the normal version of Fandrals. Get this now if you can as you may not see a T13 staff or polearm for a long time.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Badkitty » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:19 pm

Thank you Tinder, I appreciate it. I'm sorry for being defensive, I just get antsy around theorycrafters and their awesome powers of analysis.
I took the ranseur in order to avoid some raid drama and long story short I agreed to not roll against him on the flamescythe long before the polearm dropped. (it's not always easy rolling with 2 cats in a 10 man but so far we've been managing... kinda makes me wanna put my leader of the pack point somewhere else though ;P)
As far as the might buff is concerned... I coulda swore we had it <.< maybe elvui lies to us o.O it matters little since logs tell all I guess.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Nepplol » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:04 am

Hey all ! My last logs & armory

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-uzaig ... details/4/
http://eu.battle.net/wow/fr/character/u ... p/advanced


So basically 1st night in new guild with new strats but I can compare with another feral DPS to understand my mistakes. Got some problem on Shannox (got Dark Intent all fight...) I can't understand why I underperform. I had often a problem with melee so I macroed /startattack /cast Shred and another thing I've noticed is on Ragna HM when swipe duties I literally can't swipe not a postionning problem but more like latency problem : spell is queued but not launching (I got a 2MB ADSL connection and averaging 150-200 ms world latency but get spike when many informations are processed like heavy AoE situation).

Any insights fellows kitties ?

A sad sad cat :(

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Druidohorde » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:38 am

Sounds like a computer problem to me. Likely older Video Card, Processor, or Ram. What are your frame rates in Org/Stormwind? and on Rag? (I use main cities b/c its a good standard)

200 Latency is acceptable.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Afje » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:29 am

Hi Nepp,

Did you and the other feral have significantly different roles on HBaleroc? You show similar dps uptimes on the dashboard, and your rip and rake uptimes are similar, but he has significantly more shreds and melee attacks.

In terms of latency problems, lag is not always due to your connection. It absolutely could be that your computer is causing the lag due to the amount of stuff going on at once. You could try reducing graphics settings to see if this alleviates some of the problem, also if you have any other apps running at the same time that aren't necessary, make sure they are turned off.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby shinryu » Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:48 am

Hopefully a simple one, atm my wrists are the ones from Alys with Haste/Mastery. Tonight the H verison dropped, but due to their crappy love of the random mechanic, it has Hit and Crit. Would it still be an upgrade?

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby redline » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:01 pm

With reforging and Agility being 2.5-3x as valuable as secondary stats, higher ilevel gear will almost always be an upgrade for you, regardless of which secondary stats are on it.

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:21 pm

Nepplol wrote:Hey all ! My last logs & armory

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-uzaig ... details/4/
http://eu.battle.net/wow/fr/character/u ... p/advanced


So basically 1st night in new guild with new strats but I can compare with another feral DPS to understand my mistakes. Got some problem on Shannox (got Dark Intent all fight...) I can't understand why I underperform. I had often a problem with melee so I macroed /startattack /cast Shred and another thing I've noticed is on Ragna HM when swipe duties I literally can't swipe not a postionning problem but more like latency problem : spell is queued but not launching (I got a 2MB ADSL connection and averaging 150-200 ms world latency but get spike when many informations are processed like heavy AoE situation).

Any insights fellows kitties ?

A sad sad cat :(

Hi Nepp.

Looking through logs like this takes a little bit more time then normal. I have been so busy this week I haven't even logged onto the game for 2 days. I will have more specific details in about 2 hours when I get home. I will say some of the difference between the 2 of you is luck. Some of it maybe your computer as well. Expect more details soon.
-Tinder

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:23 pm

Ok Nepp.

I have those promised details. I have broken these up into 2 sections. Section 1 was the unavoidable stuff. Section 2 is stuff to work on.

Section 1:
- You had about 10% less crits for Rip then him (42% vs 52%).
- You had about 4% less crits from white attacks (54% vs 58%).
- He had 8 more OOC procs then you did (22 vs 30).
- He is better geared then you. He has almost 200 more agi and 2 more mastery points (6% more bleed damage). This causes all of his attacks to do more damage compared to you.

Section 2:
- Your Savage Roar uptime was about 10% less then his (88% vs 97%)
- According to the logs you did not pot during the fight. This is a big deal. I know you do pre pot because I saw in the logs you do it on Staghelm (which you almost tied him).
- You both Mangled 6 times. Even for 1 person mangling that is to often. Now you may end up in front of him 1 or two times, but it really shouldn't make you need to do it 6 times. Work between you two who will do it every fight.

I would suggest both of you repalace the 50 Haste enchant on your gloves with 60 Mastery. He should also fill the sockets in his pants with 40 agi gems instead of trying for the socket bonus.

Also you mentioned slowing down during high spell effect times. If you are chunking anywhere you should really try turning your settings down some. This slow down can also affect your perf when it comes to damage. Hope this helped

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Nepplol » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:58 pm

Thx all for your answers, I've been away since friday xD.
Hardware speaking playing in 1900x1200 in ultra settings, got a ATi HD6950 2gb, 4gb DDR3 and a 955BE overclocked at 3.60 ghz.
I've got like 40 fps in orgri in fly form above the hv.

The problem mentionned on Ragna is that sometimes I can't use spells like the server freeze but my char and others guildmates char are playing normally, I know that my connection sucks (got loss and choke).

But thx anyway for the analysis, I'll try to play better !

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Re: Let's talk about logs (Gearing and Execution advise)

Postby Sorcerer » Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:33 pm

If you have FPS issues/drops on RAG HC its mainly becouse of your phenom. Unfortunatly AMD are much worse even compraring to old intel core2duo...
Not to mention you went wrong way if you planned to build PC for WoW mainly. CPU > Graphic card.
If I can suggest change to anything within E8400, Core i3 2100 or better i5 2500k

Disable Hyper-threading in bios if it supports it. You should have much bigger FPS stability with HT turned off in WoW. Works for WoW only too, really bad coding by blizz, but the engine is old ;/
Disable swap file (set 100-200MB for 1 only 1 partition max), File indexing (right click drive partition and disable for all folders and subfolders) and Windows Search (windows key + r) to pop menu.

Fixed all guildies this way.
I'm running H67 cheapest mobo and i3 2100 with 4gb ram and R4830 ;) Min. FPS on rag HC 18fps, avg 32. That's on 25man, ultra & 1680*1050, shadows on fair and anizo 4x

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/62

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