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Tier 13 set bonus

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby scorpio0920 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:47 pm

Feral Tier 13 4P set bouns change.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/itemset=1058
http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=105735

Frenzied Regeneration also affects all raid and party members. This effect cannot be triggered if you have been in Bear Form for less than 15 sec. In addition, using Tiger's Fury will cause your next Ravage to cost no energy, not require stealth, and have no positioning requirement for 10 sec.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:04 am

scorpio0920 wrote:Feral Tier 13 4P set bouns change.


Someone told me about that on IRC.

http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid- ... tail?r=941

It sims well, even with my relatively unoptimized conditionals for it.

To be determined:
* w/T13 equipped: I TF + Ravage!, and see a miss/dodge/parry. What happens? (Code assumes the buff is consumed. Stampede + Ravage! is not, but I was pessimistic here.)
* w/T13 equipped: I FC->TF + Ravage! and it lands. Which buffs get consumed? (Code assumes *only* the T13 buff gets used, allowing for 2xRavage!. Knowing the developers, both probably go away, but I was optimistic here.)

Someone should test this on the PTR once the gear is available.
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:25 am

That is so much better.

Using the new code, I grabbed an ilvl 379 toon and on the default patchwork fight it showed 31458 dps with the T12 set bonuses and 31720 with the T13 set bonuses. As a side note, swapping GoTF in for GoB had dps dropping to 31363, so tying Ravage! to TF is not nearly enough to compensate for the doubling in value the GoB received in 4.2. With no set bonuses (and GoB) it shows 29536.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby shinryu » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:35 am

I am in shock...Kojo totally called that tier bonus XD

Much better than the old one, I am now a happy fire kitteh for the most part, except for that Swipe nerf...

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby scorpio0920 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:19 am

shinryu wrote:I am in shock...Kojo totally called that tier bonus XD

Much better than the old one, I am now a happy fire kitteh for the most part, except for that Swipe nerf...


Maybe Swipe nerf, and cost energe reduce.

I hope.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:31 am

scorpio0920 wrote:
shinryu wrote:I am in shock...Kojo totally called that tier bonus XD

Much better than the old one, I am now a happy fire kitteh for the most part, except for that Swipe nerf...


Maybe Swipe nerf, and cost energe reduce.

I hope.


You mean the Swipe nerf that has a totally screwed up patch note? I implemented it as 5.25x weapon damage, and it's a fairly minimal decrease assuming the data mined value is correct. Remember, the AP multiplier buff is going from 1.1x to 1.2x as well.
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:32 pm

Yawning wrote:You mean the Swipe nerf that has a totally screwed up patch note? I implemented it as 5.25x weapon damage, and it's a fairly minimal decrease assuming the data mined value is correct. Remember, the AP multiplier buff is going from 1.1x to 1.2x as well.


I noticed there were two sets of numbers on MMO for the Swipe nerf...

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby redline » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:14 pm

Leafkiller wrote:That is so much better.

Using the new code, I grabbed an ilvl 379 toon and on the default patchwork fight it showed 31458 dps with the T12 set bonuses and 31720 with the T13 set bonuses. As a side note, swapping GoTF in for GoB had dps dropping to 31363, so tying Ravage! to TF is not nearly enough to compensate for the doubling in value the GoB received in 4.2. With no set bonuses (and GoB) it shows 29536.


Are the T13 numbers for the 4pc bonus only, or both the 4pc and 2pc?

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Mykeela » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:10 pm

Apparently they updated feral cat 4pce.

Feral, 2P -- While Berserk is active, Savage Defense absorbs are 100% larger, and your Blood in the Water talent now causes Ferocious Bite to refresh the duration of your Rip on targets with 60% or less health.
Feral, 4P -- Frenzied Regeneration also affects all raid and party members. This effect cannot be triggered if you have been in Bear Form for less than 15 sec. In addition, using Tiger's Fury will cause your next Ravage to cost no energy, not require stealth, and have no positioning requirement for 10 sec.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby pegàz » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:15 pm

now i am sure they don't know feral and what they do :)
Much better and usefull than the other one upper 60%. But under ......
that's why i think they gonna change again ^^

I Bet we get a free ravage when we SR next :') , Bets are off.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:48 pm

redline wrote:
Leafkiller wrote:That is so much better.

Using the new code, I grabbed an ilvl 379 toon and on the default patchwork fight it showed 31458 dps with the T12 set bonuses and 31720 with the T13 set bonuses. As a side note, swapping GoTF in for GoB had dps dropping to 31363, so tying Ravage! to TF is not nearly enough to compensate for the doubling in value the GoB received in 4.2. With no set bonuses (and GoB) it shows 29536.


Are the T13 numbers for the 4pc bonus only, or both the 4pc and 2pc?


Any place I list the 4 piece it includes the 2 piece.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Afje » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:00 am

I'm still torn on this bonus. If this is intended simply as a neat set bonus that will modify our rotation slightly and throw us a bit of a dps bump, cool; in it's newly proposed form it does this.

But...

If this set bonus is done specifically because lots of druids raised target switching as a major issue in the feedback thread, and there are lots of target switching fights in the new tier then I don't think this adequately addresses the issue. The problem is that for most ferals, we simply won't see the 4 piece bonus for a very long time. So if this is being added to address a known issue with the class that will be a particular pain point in the next tier of raiding, I would rather see it dealt with by a modification to a talent so that all feral druids can see better target switching throughout the tier.

It's possible that with the new LFR tool and the lower ilvl t13 available through that system that this will become less of a problem, but that may be balanced by there being no t13 available for valor points which puts us all at the mercy of RNG much more so than in previous tiers.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:23 pm

You might have noticed all of the Tank bonuses this time around. What it looks like to me is Blizzard is testing out class changes they may want to make next expantion by putting them into set bonuses today. I wouldn't be surprised if this or something very much like it became built into the Stampeed talent come next year.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Netherwolf » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:39 am

Hello ^^ Long time lurker, first time poster.

I became a bit curious earlier in the thread when Yawning mentioned that the 2pc T12 might outscale 4pc T13 (before the change when it was till 2x charges on FC). So I thought I'd just take the difference between 372 gear and 391 gear to get the percentual difference and use that to calculate the 410 ilevel items. Since the 4 set bonus changed to something much more realistic I settled with just running sims on hit/exp cap with the different reforges you can do.

These results is just pure speculation and should most likely be taken with a pinch of salt since I have done some approximations here and there that might be a *bit* liberal.

Calculations have been done with Mew r945 and the presets in the Sample-391-PTR profile.
I ran the sims on 50k iterations with a 300 second fight length and a 20% Variance in encounter duration on the patchwerk script.

Stats in the 391 profile:

Weapon DPS: 839.9
Agility: 6496
Attack Power: 692
Haste: 1056
Hit: 948
Crit: 1861
Exp: 426
Mastery: 1753
Pool: 6014
I mashed the secondary stats up into a pool. The reason for this is that we haven't seen the 410 gear yet, so I'm going to get the hit and exp cap first, reduce the pool by that amount and divide 80% of it evenly over haste, crit and mastery and add the remaining 20% onto the stat I'm simming for (you can only reforge 40% of one of two stats, hence 20% and not 40%).
Running with 4pc T12.
DPS: 37785.9

Calculations:

After comparing a few data points between 372 and 391 item I decided to stick with a 16.3% increase in agility (based off of Malevolence heroic and Fandral's Flamescythe heroic). Some pieces of gear showed a higher percentual increase, but I decided to go with a lower value. I have tried to only make approximations on the sparing side so the end numbers become slightly lower, and this is the reason I did not go with 17.86% instead.
I also want to add that the trinkets I used was 391 Hungerer and 397 Matrix. The agility on these did increase, but I did not increase the secondary stat proc accordingly.
Agility from gems and enchants (based off of my own gear since i did not know exactly what items was used in the 391 profile. Also might be *slightly* incorrect): 1049.
Agility: (6496 - 1049) * 1.163 + 1049 ~= 7384 (7383.9)
Weapon dps: 839.9 * 1,163 = 976.8
Secondary stats: (6014 - 145) * 1.15 + 145 = 6894

410 stats:

Weapon DPS: 976.8
Agility: 7384
Hit: 960
Exp: 781
Remaining Pool: 5153
5153 * 0.8 / 3 = 1374 (on each of mastery, haste and crit.) (3092 total)
5153 * 0.2 = 1030.6 (to distribute from reforging.)
So the stat being checked is 2404, the other two were on 1374.
Also ran one sim with all stats evenly distributed (1717 per stat after hit and exp cap)

Results:

DPS with 410 gear and 4pc T13 (no running out of melee range for extra ravages):
Haste: 44675.5
Even stats: 44549.0
Mastery: 44397.8
Crit: 44344.8
0 hit exp with even stats for reference:
44081.2
391 profile: 37785.9

Make of it what you wish, I was bored and decided to spend my time on something pretty useless ^^ But from what I can make of it it looks like T13 will be just as boring in terms of secondary stats as T12 is <.< Didn't really expect much else either since they haven't touched our abilites, but I had my hopes up for some wierd miracle to show its face.

I'm really glad the changed the 4pc bonus at least ^^ Running out of melee range for extra damage is counter intuitive, annoying and there are way better ideas they could have had for it. The current one is something that feels a lot better as a set bonus.

//Nether

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:25 pm

Netherwolf wrote:Make of it what you wish, I was bored and decided to spend my time on something pretty useless ^^ But from what I can make of it it looks like T13 will be just as boring in terms of secondary stats as T12 is <.< Didn't really expect much else either since they haven't touched our abilites, but I had my hopes up for some wierd miracle to show its face.



Heh. Baring major core mechanic or coefficient changes it was unlikely that the current secondary stat situation would change at all.

Regarding something that did change, not surprisingly the Glyph formerly known as Shred gets surpassed by Glyph of Tiger's Fury for some (but not all, as in, it's situational) encounters with 4T13 in the picture. This is naturally dependent on using TF with 0 delay, and having both 2 and 4T13.

378 hit/exp capped profile (w/2+4T13), 10k iters, 300 sec +- 10% (Lazy, can't be bothered jacking up the ilevel)

Tank and spank:
GoBerserk, GoRip -> 32778.87994 +/- 14.40379
+ GoBloodletting -> 33142.4187 +/- 14.13629 (dDPS = +363.5388)
+ GoSR -> 32946.6979 +/- 14.52298 (dDPS = +167.818)
+ GoTF -> 33243.68419 +/- 14.13879 (dDPS = +464.8043)

V&T (2 targets + long swap interval):
GoBerserk, GoRip -> 31158.79353 +/- 14.56331
+ GoBloodletting -> 31567.63272 +/- 14.19141 (dDPS = +408.8392)
+ GoSR -> 31304.94708 +/- 14.50393 (dDPS = +146.1536)
+ GoTF -> 31787.35496 +/- 14.14471 (dDPS = +628.5614)

Add encounter (Single target + periodic Swipe spam):
GoBerserk, GoRip -> 40202.10558 +/- 25.80237
+ GoBloodletting -> 40915.47428 +/- 26.54977 (dDPS = +713.3687)
+ GoSR -> 40406.86963 +/- 25.67441 (dDPS = +204.764)
+ GoTF -> 38421.71999 +/- 22.97398 (dDPS = -1780.386 Note: Yes, this is siming as a loss. The encounter spawns adds on a 60 sec timer. The decrease in TF cooldown means that the TF timer and the add spawning get out of sync, tanking AoE DPS. I could rig the script to hold TF, but the net gain from the glyph in that case is 0 and not worth simming.)

Atramedes (Single target + periodic dead time):
GoBerserk, GoRip -> 27378.75535 +/- 13.1238
+ GoBloodletting -> 27558.73506 +/- 12.60957 (dDPS = +179.9797)
+ GoSR -> 27515.42284 +/- 13.08974 (dDPS = +136.6675)
+ GoTF -> 27635.12596 +/- 13.00706 (dDPS = +256.3706)

TLDR: Basically any situation except those that prevent you from using TF on cooldown, GoBerserk, GoRip, and GoTF will produce the maximum DPS assuming that ilevel increases/new trinkets don't significantly alter things (Probably a correct assumption). Naturally if you're bad and wait for more than 650 msec or so after a Glyphed TF comes off cooldown, GoBloodletting will perform as well if not better (NB: Based on the tank and spank figures, encounter/gear specific so will be inaccurate for live gearing. Number given as a reference point).

It's somewhat amusing when the developers fix long standing brain damage while making it a non-issue at the same time, but this isn't the first time that has happened. At least the situation is temporary and contingent on having 4T13.
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby ShmooDude » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:09 pm

Yawning wrote:Naturally if you're bad and wait for more than 650 msec or so after a Glyphed TF comes off cooldown, GoBloodletting will perform as well if not better (NB: Based on the tank and spank figures, encounter/gear specific so will be inaccurate for live gearing. Number given as a reference point).


Quick question, did you get that 650 ms number by comparing a non-perfect GoTF usage vs a non-perfect GoBloodletting usage (ie roughly the same delay using both glyphs)? Cause for example, if you're slow at using TF, than a 31s average TF usage vs a 28s is still gonna be close to the net gain of a 30s vs a 27s (only about .35% change if I got my math right). The value lost would be if your delays resulted in losing a TF as a result of the fight duration. This actually is kind of relevant cause sometimes you have to move out for boss mechanics which is uncontrollable and may actually delay TFs by a second or two here or there.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:58 pm

ShmooDude wrote:Quick question, did you get that 650 ms number by comparing a non-perfect GoTF usage vs a non-perfect GoBloodletting usage (ie roughly the same delay using both glyphs)? Cause for example, if you're slow at using TF, than a 31s average TF usage vs a 28s is still gonna be close to the net gain of a 30s vs a 27s (only about .35% change if I got my math right). The value lost would be if your delays resulted in losing a TF as a result of the fight duration. This actually is kind of relevant cause sometimes you have to move out for boss mechanics which is uncontrollable and may actually delay TFs by a second or two here or there.


Poor phrasing by me.

Basically, the Glyph must give a net reduction > 2.350 ms to the TF interval per use, or it's wasted and pointless. In the example you state (31 vs 28), this is the case so there's no significant devaluation. I am making the the assumption is that the gain is uniformly distributed over the reduction period, which is somewhat flawed but I was too lazy to make code changes.

I could add TF usage delay as a parameter if people really care about looking at this in depth, but:
a) It's considerably harder to use GoNotShredHonest imperfectly as the window for getting 3 Shreds in is rather large and it's irrelevant past the first 40% of an encounter.
b) I did model encounters with dead time and Glyph of TF sims favorably even under those circumstances.
c) It's possible to construct encounters that will screw Glyph of TF due to even more esoteric dead times entirely through the script interface (The add encounter does this by de-syncing the add spawn interval from the TF cooldown) if people want to examine that.

One other thing to note is that the current default script religiously lines up on use effects (Trinkets and the stupid Engineering thing) with TF. While the profile I have does not use any such things, it's enough to shift the glyph results around and thus additional investigation/script work is required (A quick and dirty look with a sample size of 1 shows that syncing with TF even when glyphed at an uptime loss is superior to using APS blindly on cooldown, and that The Glyph Formerly Know as Shred is superior to TF the moment APS enters the picture. I'm probably not going to look at this any further, though I may if T13 has good on use trinkets. Someone that cares more than I do can investigate this and tell me what to change if necessary.).
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Konungr » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:23 pm

Yawning wrote:While the profile I have does not use any such things, it's enough to shift the glyph results around and thus additional investigation/script work is required (A quick and dirty look with a sample size of 1 shows that syncing with TF even when glyphed at an uptime loss is superior to using APS blindly on cooldown, and that The Glyph Formerly Know as Shred is superior to TF the moment APS enters the picture.


This is something I have come to understand as well. Working on Heroic Ragnaros, trying to push out every last ounce of DPS in a 1 min ~40 second window to obtain only 1 Living Meteor had me scrutinizing my gearing choices. One thing that I spent several hours looking at was how T12 4PC severely screwed up TF and any On-Use abilities, such as APS, syncing up. I therefore switched to my Heroic Essence of the Cyclone, since the simulated loss was ~100 and I assumed that Mew script was favoring APS with its ability to sync perfectly with every other TF.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:02 pm

Konungr wrote:This is something I have come to understand as well. Working on Heroic Ragnaros, trying to push out every last ounce of DPS in a 1 min ~40 second window to obtain only 1 Living Meteor had me scrutinizing my gearing choices. One thing that I spent several hours looking at was how T12 4PC severely screwed up TF and any On-Use abilities, such as APS, syncing up. I therefore switched to my Heroic Essence of the Cyclone, since the simulated loss was ~100 and I assumed that Mew script was favoring APS with its ability to sync perfectly with every other TF.


This is somewhat derailing the topic, but...

TLDR: What? The sim is showing a delta of 100 DPS according to you, and that's with the sim holding the APS CD till TF is available. Why would you use a downgrade?

Mew's default script will always sync on use trinkets and Engi tinkers with TF[0]. With 4T12 and APS this results in Berserk delaying APS by ~7 sec each time you use it, however APS still sims superior despite the uptime loss (And to be honest, uptime loss doesn't enter the picture at all for most encounter durations especially if they are relatively short[1].). It's debatable as to if this is the best practice with GoTF in the picture (all the results I've seen point to yes, but I haven't looked very hard), but it's fairly conclusive for 4T12 unless you were to specifically rig the encounter parameters to put APS at a massive disadvantage (a 1:40 sec DPS window with heroism used with Berserk does not).

For the situation you describe, even with an extremely extended Berserk (via Heroism), you still will get 2 full APS uses within a 1:40 window, so I'm not following your reasoning at all (At t=5.000 and t=~77.00 for the reference profile, using Heroism on the pull, with a 41 sec Berserk.). It's also possible to hit APS up to 9 seconds prior to TF, and still see a full overlap as well (though that will desync the latter timers even further, though again, it's encounter duration specific as to if this will cause latter problems. Chances are it won't.). So, given the choice between 30 sec of +1277 Agi (12 of which you have TF, 15 of which also happens to have Berserk, 6 of which you have both) and 20 sec of 2178 crit rating (Berserk/TF overlap depend entirely on the proc timing), I don't see any compelling reason what so ever to pick the latter.

[0]: It enforces the shared ICD as well, and will prioritize trinkets over tinkers for obvious reasons. Behavior is naturally customizable, and is clearly specified in the script.
[1]: Case in point, for a 300 sec encounter with 0 jitter, 4T12 does not change APS uptime at all, because the pushback from 2 Berserks doesn't cut into uptime.
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Konungr » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:18 pm

It's 15 seconds, not 30, but that is besides the point. More often then not, I will get a ~45 sec Berserk. Use TF, it won't come off cooldown until right as APS is finished. But I understand where you are coming from.

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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:44 pm

Konungr wrote:It's 15 seconds, not 30, but that is besides the point. More often then not, I will get a ~45 sec Berserk. Use TF, it won't come off cooldown until right as APS is finished. But I understand where you are coming from.


...

You get 2 uses in 1:40 sec, regardless of if you hold the CD for TF or not. 15 * 2 = 30. EotS is 10 sec as well, but 10 * 2 = 20.

TF #1/APS #1/Berserk: t=5
TF #2: t=50
TF #3/APS #2: t=80
Deadline: t=100 (1:40)

I'm failing to see the problem.
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby Yawning » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:22 am

When I thought I was done with everything except for trinkets, they go and change stuff again. Yay!

Previously: You got a buff that was Stampede in all but name on TF. Now, you trigger Stampede on TF.

Code in SVN is up to date, but the implications are fairly minor. It's a slight nerf to the bonus for the common case since you lose 15% damage off one Ravage! (since you could get 2 off during a TF previously). If you are one of the masochistic people that FC on cooldown, the nerf is more tangible, but the bonus remains reasonably decent regardless so it's nothing to complain about.

The priority list changes ever so slightly on opener since you want to consume Stampede before using TF, but it's fairly trivial to pull off so it's nothing to write home about (I just did it based off time in combat since I was lazy. The correct behavior now that I think about it is to Ravage if TF is off CD at the same location. Oh well, I'll change it later.).
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Re: Tier 13 set bonus

Postby shinryu » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:02 am

So with the new change:

Item - Druid T13 Feral 4P Bonus (Frenzied Regeneration and Stampede) Tiger's Fury bonus changed to: In addition, using Tiger's Fury will also trigger your Stampede talent as if you used Feral Charge (Cat).

It's basically back to giving us 2 Ravages right, just with using TF instead of FC proccing Stampede? Guess 2 Ravages > 1 is a buff lol. I like it obviously, now the main question is, if you FC and slam TF shortly thereafter, do you have 3 Ravages to play with? Or does Stampede have a CD somewhere that's not quite obvious?

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